Ill add that currently I was planning to have the trees on M7 on 10' spacing with 15' between rows. Not too sure about this choice now...

Hard to imagine bedrock so shallow, although I do find areas with thick layers of sandstone very near the surface.

Can't advise on rootsocks, however if you have a 2' depth of soil and can control the wetness, you should be able to grow fruit trees.

You might consider putting in a cutoff drain, placing it perpendicular to the slope and uphill maybe 20' or more from where the wetness surfaces. This will intercept the underground water on top of the bedrock and you can drain it away to somewhere it won't cause you problems, and the wet area you want to plant will dry down.

That's plenty of soil for a non-commercial planting- especially considering it's rich. I'm not at all sure any formal drainage construction is necessary- one would have to see the site to make that call. Usually all that is needed is to push soil between rows to raise the rows themselves which could be accomplished very quickly with equipment. I could do it in a day for about 15 trees with a shovel if the sod wasn't a complete nightmare. I wouldn't remove the sod from the site, but just smother it with newspaper covered with mulch. Of course your sod might require more than this.

This combined with the use of mulch would do the job. I'd space the trees 20' between rows and scrape soil from the 10 feet band between those rows to raise the rows. Move as much soil as you can without creating slopes so severe as to make mowing difficult. Remember that it will settle quite a bit so error on the side of too steep.

111 would be better than 7 as rootstock for anchorage and to find more soil (water and nutrients). Plums and pears would probably be just fine even in unraised soil as they do better than apples in wet conditions, but the fruit will be better on the raised beds- especially pears. That is if the soil is excessively wet during ripening of fruit. I'd get plums on myro but Citation might work- I'm not sure how well it does in wet compared to myro, which does great.

I believe your concieved spacing is too tight, even for M7, at least for tradional managment (warm climate, rich soil). 15' spacing with 20' between rows is as close as I'd go. With 111 you could even make it 20X20', depending on the relative vigor of scions.

The only problem with adding more soil is that it may not be compatable with your current soil because it is a different texture. This can be a bit tricky to deal with but if it was necessary I can explain how I'd do it on another post. However, I don't think it would be necessary at all.

I have trees on a hill which has bedrock at various depths of soil, as little as 6" in a few spots. I have not had any problems with any apple rootstock. The main problem I have is because of the hill and the thin soil it can dry out too fast.

Scott

Sub: Given that you have the soil available, I'd move in as much topsoil as you can afford. Use this new soil to form raised beds. Put more in the tree rows and less between rows. With a greater depth of soil and a raised bed I don't think you will have any problems with excess water. But you might need to shape the surface to provide some, but not excessive surface drainage.

Now plant your trees on MM 111 for apples. I don't think you will have any troubles on this rootstock with short term excess water. It is also very drought tolerant, your greater problem. Pears should do well on any rootstock. For plums Myrobalan 29C would be better than Citation. The later is generally not recommended for Texas and is not drought tolerant. Lovell would also work on plums and is the standard for peaches should you plant some of them.

The Fruitnut

I disaggree about Lovell. If drainage is a problem I believe myro is far superior- peaches hate wet feet. I don't think you need more topsoil, I have frequently installed succesful orchards with 18 inches of soil above bedrock- even with light soil. Here in the northeast this is not rare at all, and 2 feet of clay loam is worth 4 of sandy soil if you just improve the drainage.

I have also planted many succesful orchards on raised beds where drainage was the issue as well. I've usually done it by making raised mounds for each individual tree but commercial growers usually raise the whole row as I described.

Trees on my raised mounds usually establish significantly faster than those planted on well drained soil flat. The mounds I use are 6-8' diameter and about 18" high at planting. They get higer when you mulch the trees but then settle. The disadvantage is you have to keep mulching these mounds annually or they erode- this isn't necessary with raised rows.

Some limitation of soil can actually improve the quality of fruit by deinvigorating trees.

Harvestman: But you don't grow fruit in the 100 degree heat and months long droughts of Texas. You need more soil here. If not that then irrigation.

The Fruitnut

Four ft of soil depth is very marginal for fruit trees in north central Texas. I'd never put in a commercial orchard on that soil without drip irrigation. The good soils for dryland fruit are at least 6ft of soil with good water retention capabilities. I'm talking areas with about 30 inches of rain a yr. Total water use in Texas is about twice that in NY and 6-8 wks of very hot weather with little rain happens many yrs.

Furthermore, many dryland orchards are farmed with bare soil to conserve water for the trees. This leads to severe erosion and is not recommended if you care at all about the future. In areas with 20 inches rainfall, you need deep soil, completely free of weeds or grass, and trees spaced about 30ft by 30ft.

For a home orchard 4ft of soil will probably work without irrigation. But trees could die in a yr like we just had. Ask scape who posts here about this yr in TX. Brutal.

Good soils for unirrigated pecans are 10-20 ft deep on the bottom lands and you hope for a good flood or two each yr. Fruits can benefit from some water stress so are grown on lesser soils.

The Fruitnut

Thanks for the help all. This is all great advice.

beeone, the cutoff drain you refer to is how i found the bedrock! I am still putting this drain in for the heavy rains.

I'll state a few things I neglected to post originally.

Im just an aspiring home orchardist, so the only beneficiaries of the fruit are my drive for variety, my family, and my daughters school for whatever we do not eat so no pressure for maximum yield.

Ok. So heres the plan.

Against better advice im still going to keep my 10x15 spacing with agressive summer pruning so I can keep my variety selection as broad as possible.

Im goin to go with either M7 or M111 because of the heartyness of the tree and their ability to heal. I guess ill probably mix the two to see which does better.

We get lots of wind here as well. So, to assist with the wind issue im goin to plant two windward windbreak hedges. Type unknown at this point. Poplar perhaps?

I will not raise the planting area, and will instead take my neighbors free soil to create raised bed planting rows of about 12"hx6'w.

I plan on mulching the each rows and will use pea gravel between rows.

I will also finish my french drain project to cutoff ground water after heavy rains.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I already have irrigation in the area I wish to plant. Im going to steal three zones of my sprinkler system and convert to drip so drought will not be much of an issue.

PSHEW! All this for a handfull of trees! LOL.

Any comments welcome. Thanks again everyone for your experience!

Cheers
Sub

Hey, Sub! I have a quarter acre orchard on a steep slope with no soil--only highly compacted subsoil that even an auger won't penetrate in places. Like you, I'm going for variety rather than high production. I went the raised mound route with good results using drip irrigation. Regarding spacing, your trees can be placed quite close together with a vigorous summer pruning program. (See videos and text at Dave Wilson Nursery website.) With raised beds or mounds, most stocks will work but I'll join the chorus in favor of the MM.lll, the survivor and producer. I don't have experience with plums, but I like the Lovell best for peaches. I have 40 apple varieties and nine peaches. Have fun! Jeff

Misterbaby and others, maybe you can straighten me out on this concept of tight spacing and aggressive summer pruning.

I can well understand how planting a couple trees in one hole will allow closer spacing as the two trees might more or less function as one by dwarfing each other. But when you start just tightening the spacing in rows on vigorous rootstocks, my experience is that you end up with trees excessively vigorous- producing bland, poorly colored fruit.

On the west coast you can control vigor by cutting back on water so I can see how you might get around that problem there- where Dave Wilson has led the charge for this approach (they do sell trees for their income). It may be a coincidence, but at least 2 people who endorse this method on the east coast are using it in sites with extremely limited soil which is dwarfing and may counteract the problem of too much root and not enough tree.

It rains during the growing season in Texas and I doubt that spacing 111 by 10 feet is a good way to increase your selection of apples. A clay loam soil is invigorating as well. In the long run, I think a much better approach would be to learn how to do some simple grafts and put several varieties on each tree.

This is spoken by someone who does a great deal of summer pruning in a humid climate although my observations are purely anecdotal on this subject.

Harvestman, your comments are thoughtful and show good experience. In the long run, the grafting approach could be equally viable or even better. I, however, am not in it for the long run as I'm an old buzzard who wanted to get a highly diverse planting up and running as quickly as possible. This is my retirement passion, my hobby.

I didn't recommend 111's on 10 foot centers. I planted the trees in clumps of two, three, and in one case four. My apples are on 111's, several Geneva's, M.7's, and other dwarfing rootstocks. Also, I have a few G.11's and Bud.9's interspersed in 20-gallon tubs, primarily for pollination. In the middle of all this sits the family beehive, 40,000 strong and not all yet named.

The clumped trees do tend to runt each other which, with heavy pruning, keeps the trees of manageable size--no ladders necessary. The trees become thickset at a young age and capable of carrying a heavy load. I keep them well-thinned to get large, flavorful fruit.

I know this approach would make a traditional grower's skin crawl, but it satisfies my goals. By the way, some commercial growers are now planting highly dwarfing rootstocks on as little as 36-inch centers, trellised much like grapevines and highly productive.

Sub may wish to experiment with the new techniques.

Jeff

Sub,

I installed field tile last year. You may be aware some tree roots will clog field tile very quickly, sometimes in one year. I did quite a bit of reading before I put the tile in, and fruit trees are not supposed to be that prone to clog it. However, some other trees, like maples, will clog the tile quickly. Some trees can send their roots out 90' or more. Generally it's trees that love water and have shallow roots that are the most problem. For that reason, I wonder about plums being a problem, even though they weren't listed as such.

Surrounding the tile in a bed of gravel is supposed to help keep trees roots out, as well as covering the tile and gravel, with a good quality landscape fabric. Evidently keeping the dirt from settling in the gravel bed helps prevent roots from entering that zone. As an added measure, I wrapped our tile in high quality landscape fabric as well. The factory "sock" that comes with the tile will do nothing to keep roots out. It is intended only to keep dirt from entering the tile.

I've never installed tiles but a French ditch needs the heavy landscape type fabric (usually a thicker tighter fabric is used) to prevent or at least greatly slow the process of soil settling in between the gravel and destroying drainage. I'm sure it's the same deal with the tiles. It takes a tough fabric, like the one used for Carl Whitcombs first growbag design, to stop roots. Can roots grow through pure gravel? I'm thinking they could.

I doubt myro roots would be a problem. First of all, the treee on top is tiny compared to something like a maple or a willow tree. Also they are not particularly fibrous. I wouldn't be surprised if a mulberry could do a real number on tiles though.

Again, much appreciation to all who are assisting me in this venture. I am doing alot of other research on hot weather orchards. Seems like alot of experimentation is needed on my part to get this to work. We shall see.

Our evenings here in the summer are quite warm. The trees wont get a rest. Sometimes the evening stays well above 80 degrees. The humidity isnt bad at all; Nothing like Austin or Houston(ug).

My gut tells me that the heat and root competition will stunt these trees. Hope im right... In either case I need a real sturdy tree cause of the wind and hail. Little trees just arent going to cut it. Need something that can heal realitively quickly.

Once established, if the trees turn out being too vigerous, Ill just pull out every other tree, let them grow out, and convince the wife to give me another quarter acre (heh). I dont see this as an issue for four or five years though.

The whole field tile concept is new to me too. Im only familiar with french drain/ditch. Since the rows will run up and down the hill (very slight grade), I had planned on putting my french drain in between rows. I have also been told that completely surrounding a drain with 6-9"+ of gravel should keep roots out. Now i guess I need at least soil barrier though. Didint think of that one. The plums and pears are goin onto a different part of the property now so their roots shouldnt be an issue.

Pshew. Feelin better about all this.

Thanks all!
Sub

So sublime, maybe you should follow mrbaby's lead and plant 2 trees in same hole every 20 feet- or even 3 if you're trying to imitate the DW method. That will also probably speed time that trees bear as 111 can take awhile, depending on cultivar.

I think you'll need some perpindicular drains or at least one above the trees to bring the water to the drains that run with the slope. You probably realize this, but I just wanted to be sure.