We need to know more about your situation. I see you are in zone 7, but where do you live (state and town or zip code)? What type of grass do you have in your yard (besides the aforementioned crabgrass)? Tilling is the last thing you should do, it probably isn't necessary in your situation. Can you irrigate without restrictions? What kind of yard/grass do you want? Have you ever done a soil test?

I live in Northern Va, can get fairly hot and humid with some dry spells. We live on a well and while I can water....an inch a week for everything is a stretch.

I had Scotts pure premium in the front and royal gold in the back but I had the RG when we moved in...I added in some Rebel Turf fescue in the back since I didn't care for the RG.

I would like a dense, but not super thin bladed grass..I guess the only thing I can think of is blades that are about 1/4" thick...kinda "middle of the road" for lack of better terms. yard with some foot traffic and lawn tractor use.

I've seen the super wide thick blades and don't care for that, i've seen some nice Rebel lawns and that's about what i'm after.

Not after zoysia...since I need heavy artillery to remove it.

Let me know what you think I should put down now to prevent any more crabgrass....it was roughly 70% of the greenery in my yard.

It will be warm here in the day for the next week...I feel the sooner the better.

gmcman -

I'm in NoVa as well, and while it may reach the 50's and 60's next week - there's no chance of soil temps reaching that high. (Seed germination usually occurs around 55 degree soil temps, IIRC). The traditional time to put down pre-em is when the forsythia are blooming. I haven't even seen any crocus start popping up yet (in my yard, anyway), so I think you have plenty of time.

How well shaded is the backyard? The top picture looks like it has moss - it may be to shady to grow anything that will withstand any amount of foot traffic.

Also - it would be more helpful if you included a picture of your lawn during the spring/summer/fall months - when the lawn is dormant, it's hard to tell what's dead and what's not. BTW - what are those tracks? Wheelbarrel? Toddler ATV?

If the lawn looks like that in the spring as well, than I don't think you'll be able to do much before the fall. IMO, you have much to large a yard to do a full overseed in the spring, given that you're concerned about the impact on your well.

A "traditional" mix of fescue and KBG would probably give you a lawn that can self-repair and withstand traffic (to a degree) - just know that you WILL need to irrigate properly - especially with the high-humidity summers we can get. But as you've probably already determined - the consensus on this board is that seeding in the spring is a recipe for disaster - the plant can't get established enough before the heat of summer kicks in.

I'd start with getting in the habit of good lawn care - mowing high, mulch mowing, watering deep and infrequently (and only when needed - may not be until May/June for us), and apply a pre-em at the appropriate time to help minimize weeds.

Last option is to just scalp what you have, rake it up, add some organic matter if needed, and plant Perrenial (maybe Annual?) Rye. This will give you germination in a week or less, and can offer decent enough coverage at minimal cost until late summer (end of August), at which point, kill it all and start from scratch with the seed you want.

Sorry for the rambling post - I need to find a more interesting job!

You missed the best time to solve your problems. Had you seeded last Sept, you'd be looking at a much better outlook. As gags said, seeding now, just when the crabgrass seeds are looking for water, is a poor time. You will get the crabgrass coming up and may think you have real grass. The problem is that the Kentucky bluegrass takes 3 weeks to sprout, so if you stop watering early, then you have the worst of all worlds.

At this point you need something to compete with the crabgrass anyway. If sod is a possibility, then do that. There are differences in the grasses. The fescue varieties stay green(ish) all year but do not spread out. This means it cannot heal itself if it gets damaged and will be a thin turf in almost any case. It must be reseeded every fall to really get dense. Kentucky bluegrass spreads by itself. Once you get it established, then you should not ever have to reseed. Dense turf will become its own weed protection, so I really like the KBG types.

Here is a picture that was posted here many years ago. The guy was thanking me for the advice to mow his KBG higher and water less often. It solved his weed problem. He posted the picture to this forum to show the end result.

{{gwi:80292}}

If you seed this spring, do not expect to have a perfect lawn in July and August. However, do make plans to seed again in September as soon as the summer's evening heat breaks. Do not till it. Just scrape the surface stuff off, sow the seeds, roll them down, and water lightly every single day for 3 full weeks. Water 3x per day (breakfast, lunch, and dinner) for 10 minutes each time. After the grass comes up, then start to back off on the watering. The grass should come up in time to fertilize it for 'winterizing.' Then next summer the root systems should be hardy enough to sustain it through the summer. If it really gets hot, then stop mowing. Let the grass get long and deal with the length after it cools off. Long grass is much more heat tolerant than short grass.

The top pic actually has no moss in it, it's some lingering fescue actually. Both these lawns were lush last summer...with crabgrass unfortunately, I could see some fescue in there in places but was choked out.

Our well is somewhat decent....knock on glass....save my @#%, so I can easily water 10-15 min, I generally water 45 min, wait about an hour, water 45 min..that generally covers most of the lawn.

We have roughly a 4 1/2 gal/min refresh rate, I don't like to test it's capacity though. I did water last summer for 45 min, sit 45, water 45, then started on the back and forgot about it....it must have run 2 hrs and when I went out to shut it off...it was silent, I thought no way, maybe the LOML turned it off. Went to the bib to find it sweaty and I could turn it off...that kinda freaked the wifey out.

If I can get away with a 15 min watering with KBG then i'm all for it. Won't be 3 times a day but twice should be doable.

First off -- very good post, this information is invaluable for me ... I have a few additional specifics and I seek any advice as I plan on spending the entire weekend resuscitating my lawn. From a distance, my lawn looks similar to gmcman's - but upon further inspection, it's worse. I live in Northern Virginia. I have children and dogs. I have 90% shade on half and 60% shade on the other half. I have moss (and occasional wild strawberry growth). I did take a soil sample a few years ago and VT said it was approx. 7 and they advised I was in a good range. I haven't applied lime since. My yard is surrounded by Holly trees. I was on the brink of tilling my lawn this year because I really feel the soil is compacted (don't know why) Rather, my plan is the rent a core aerator this weekend and go over the yard 2 or 3 times. I was going to overseed, but i understand that it will need to occur again in the fall. Last year I just wanted 'green' - that proved fine during the summer, but in the fall, winter and now with all the weed growth gone, I have a soil yard with occasional grass and moss!

This weekend I plan to aerate, seed, fertilize, lime?, organic matter?, etc.

Any thoughts on seed variety (is KBG best for my shady situation), fertilizer brand (last few years I used product from Betty's that's only applied 2x per year). Any advice will be graciously received.

First a disclaimer, seeding in spring is not the best time to do so. You will be much more successful in late summer/early fall. In spring you will be fighting weeds, and your young grass will have to face the heat and humidity of summer as well as the lawn disease that can accompany it. If you choose to seed now, you were warned. Moss in your lawn typically means you get a good deal of shade, the area is damp, and your soil is possibly acidic. You say you had a soil test and your pH was around 7. I have a problem with this number. It is the rare soil in the east that is perfectly neutral unless it has been getting regular liming. If it is 7, then that's fine, and no liming is necessary, cool season turf actually prefers soil to be slightly acidic 6.3-6.8 is a nice range. Also your soil test should have included many more things, pH is only part of the problem. A lot of people think they have compacted soil. You might have it, but odds are it is just unhealthy soil that has an imbalanced Mg:Ca ratio, or very low organic matter, or a combination of things. Aeration is good for compacted soil, but it's not the end all be all. A lot of people prefer to use liquid aeration treatments that contain Yucca, surfactants, kelp, and a few other things. You can buy these solutions or make your own. If you do core aerate or don't, I recommend power raking your yard. If you core aerate, the power rake will break up the cores and fill in the holes to a degree with loosened soil. If you don't core aerate, the power rake will loosen up the top layer of soil, and remove thatch and the dead moss. Yeah, dead, you will want to kill the moss with Moss Out, which is a cheap and effective solution of ferrous sulfate, basically an iron solution. If you do core aerate you will likely bring up some dormant weed seeds, so be forewarned now. If you want to add organic matter there are many ways, one of the easiest is using Milorganite. Using it after core aeration will add it directly to the soil as it should fill up the core holes. The power rake will also help incorporate it. KBG and perennial rye is not a very shade tolerant grass in general. Tall fescue is probably your best choice, since it germinates and establishes fairly quickly, does better in the transition zone, and is the most shade tolerant of the three. It would be advisable to pick cultivars that do best in your area and in shade (the current NTEP trials have a shade trial and it takes place in fairly dense shade). You can use any starter fertilizer you want, I like to do half amounts at seeding, and the other half after the second mow. Also, if you can afford it, I recommend putting Tupersan down at the same time. It will prevent crabgrass germination, but it only lasts 4-6 weeks, so you will have to apply it a few times to get the protection you want. The most important part of the process is watering. You have to keep your seeds moist for at least 2 weeks, and your young grass well watered. This means lightly watering 2-3 times a day for the first two weeks. Then you can lessen the frequency as the grass gets older. Personally I think you are rushing the whole process. If you can live with what you have now till late summer, you will have more time to get everything squared away. A new soil test is in order if you can't find the results of your previous ones.

No matter how hard your soil is, a normal lawn will not become compacted. The only way to compact soil is to soak it with water and plunge it until the air is driven out. This happens routinely in a livestock operation. The rancher has to dedicate one pasture to being "pugged," so the rest of the pasture will not become compacted. When the rains hit hard and deep, they move the animals off the good land into the pugged pasture. That will never happen in a lawn. What does happen is the soil fungi will die from applications of fungicides or from simply allowing the soil to dry all the way out. Fungi need air and moisture. They must not be saturated or they will get no air, so soggy soil will have a depleted population of beneficial fungi. It seems like there is a lot to think about but it amounts to cycling moisture into the soil and allowing it to dry out.

Thanks for the feedback, this is very helpful. While i hate to watch my lawn suffer another summer, i fully undersntad the benefit of perfoming all this work in the late summer/fall. That being said, i'll do a little now then a lot later. I also agree with the commentary that i probably don't have compacted soil, but more imbalanced soil. We have lots of big trees surrounding the yard so they are sucking the nutrients out of the soil. I didn't have an opportunity to locate my soil report -- i recall the 7.0, but it could have been 'sampler error (me)' when taking my 3 samples to send to VT. Everyone in the neighborhood does lime -- a couple lawns look good ... so i'm not sure thats a magic bullet.

I like the idea of aerating and adding Milorganite. If i do that, do i also use Moss Out? I've used that in the past with success, but the moss came right back (thus poor soil conditions). I noticed Milorganite has iron.

Couple questions ... if i toss a little tall fescue on the yard, can i also use Tupersan? I feel like i have more of a wild strawberry and chickweed issue than crabgrass -- are they all in the same family and covered with Tupersan?

Any suggestions on brand or specifics of fertilizer? I was told by someone that the major brands are like 'lawn crack', but this guy was also pushing his own product (no pun intended).

Finally, I raked the heck out of the lawn last week -- pulled wheelbarrow upon wheelbarrow of debris out of the yard -- i can see soil rather than thatch -- so i don't think i need a power rake. I took a pic last night to show you, but can't figure out how to attach it.

Again - really appreciate the experienced advice.

Liming is only one piece in the having a good lawn equation, and if your pH is 7.0, it's not necessary. That number could have also been a buffer pH, which isn't your pH.

Moss Out will kill the moss, and add iron to your soil. If you don't kill the moss, and just rake the areas, it will chop the moss up into little pieces and spread it about, which can lead to wider moss coverage. Milorganite will add a little iron, but the organic matter is it's main attribute. You want your soil OM level up around 10 percent. A good OM level means better moisture retention, plenty of food for the soil microbes, and better soil texture (among other things).

You can use Tupersan with any cool season grass, as it is one of the only preemergents that won't affect turf seed. The drawback is that is only works for a few weeds, crabgrass being the major one (the others are foxtail, downy brome and barnyardgrass). It won't prevent dandelions, chickweed, wild strawberry, etc. There is a new herbicide called Tenacity that prevents more weed species, but it just came out and availability is low (EH Griffiths might have the new 8 oz bottle for residential use). Unfortunately weeds are a part of spring seedings.

All synthetic fertilizers are more or less the same if the three numbers are the same. Starter fertilizers provide a lot of phosphorus which is mainly for root growth. Pick one of the major ones and you'll be fine. I like to do a half dose at seeding, the other half after the second mowing. Always water in synthetic fertilizer.

The power rake loosens up the top inch or so of soil, making seed soil contact better, and rooting easier for the grass. You don't have to do it, but I think it helps. If you use a roller, then it will push the seeds into the soil better after a power raking. Plus if you aerate it will break up the cores, and you won't loose much seed into the holes.

Read how to attach a pic here:
http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/pepper/2002072150000611.html

and here: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lawns/msg1013500814918.html

Very helpful advice here....I appreciate it. The lawn is starting to green up but only in patches...I will definately wait till end of summer to really get started.

I guess whatever I do in late summer, I should keep feeding milorganite until then. I'm leaning towards KBG but if I can get a good, thick, green fescue then I will go that route....just wanted to try something different is the only reason.

Does KBG resemble zoysia in appearance?

Not really after that type of lawn.

KBG is the Cadillac of cool season grass. It's dark green, thick, soft and lush. It's in another league over Zoysia. If you decide to go that route, then you will need to select cultivars that do well in the transition zone. Another option would be a TTTF/KBG lawn.