Before anyone jumps down my neck, no...I don't believe there is "clean coal technology" out there. It's cleaner, but extracting it and burning it is still messy stuff.

However, a lot of money is being poured into research and it's a huge field of research. People want to get it out of the ground cleaner and use it cleaner.

Part of what is screwing up China's environment (not touching the slave labor thing on this rant) is they're using a lot of coal to run their economic revolution. They're doing it in ways that "clean coal technology" hasn't remotely bridged the gap to yet, though.

For instance...this should not exist in a world that cares out farming inputs outside of labor costs.

Nc-crn, the town of Yuma should not exist? Why not?

No, not the town of Yuma. The agriculture that's there.

Yuma and most all of that area grows a lot of food. The soil is a mostly alkaline sand/clay mix with little organic matter. It lives off the Colorado river since it gets 6-12" of rain a year. The average June-September highs are 100-105+ degrees. They grow a lot of stuff that's not melons under full-time daytime misters in the summer to keep the fields active.

The reason there's that huge complex of fields in that area is because the water rights can keep it alive and the cheap labor pool.

I'm just saying that if it wasn't for the cheap labor pool that huge-scale agriculture wouldn't be there.

I love Arizona, btw. I was out there in March catching the beginning of wildflower season and doing a bit of hiking. I wish I could find work in Tucson, but I haven't been able to find anything. I'm probably moving a little more west.

I heard on NPR today that all currencies will have to be devalued before economies will recover. Cheap labor can only exist where cheap housing and other necessities also exist.

Everything in this country has become ridiculously expensive, and the housing crisis only happened because enough people foolishly believed that prices would keep going up forever.

As for willing labor, that has always existed too. Ask anybody who is looking for work right now.

The real problem is bad management. Office politics, favoritism, cronyism, alcoholism, etc. Probably everyone has seen a job situation where the actual quality of the work took a backseat to unprofessional behavior of all kinds, or where a hard worker was let go so that some clown's drinking buddy could be hired instead, etc.

Respect for hard work and accomplishment should start in school, but it the opposite is taught in American schools, where smart kids are scorned as "nerds" for the last few generations.

Just about everyone is capable of doing some good work that contributes to the betterment of society, but somehow this economy chooses to export jobs to China while supporting millions of American layabouts on welfare, for generations, who then turn to crime, drugs and vice, just to have something to do.

PS I've been to Yuma, do they still have date palms growing down there?

Yes BSN, i watched Food, Inc when it first came out. I still feel the film only scratches the surface of the problems with our food supply but it's a good introduction to the topic.

More than anything i wish our attitude towards food would change. How can six or seven dollars be a reasonable price for a Vente Frappucino but too expensive for a bunch of freshly picked, locally grown asparagus?

How can we feel so entitled to a cheap food supply?

And then to free healthcare for the problems that the cheap food creates?

These are things that i don't talk about much but i think about a lot. And what i mostly think is that i can only control my own actions.

So what do i do? All the usual cliches. Think globally, act locally. I eat less meat so i can afford to buy grass fed Maui beef when i do. Vote with my fork. I spend money at restaurants that buy from local farmers.

I'm not fooling myself~i still leave a good sized footprint~but i do what i can, when i can, to minimize that.

And the best thing i do? i tend an edible garden. Producing my own food, even a small part of it, gives me such an incredible sense of appreciation for what goes into the production of food. And i understand, more than ever, that i am a steward of the earth. Malama the Aina as they say around these parts.

So yes, no matter where we are in our journey, it does start with us BSN.

Grow the change ; )

I would love to see grocery stores full of Wisconsin grown veggie crops by about May 1st through Thanksgiving. I think with a push towards hoophouses (early start/protection from wx) we could easily raise large crops. One problem may be summer heat...Maybe move production northward as the summer progresses... Right now the only local grocery store crops i see are potatoes, pumpkins, apples, cranberries... Along with huge amounts of cheeses, butters, and meat (we have very fat people in this state).

Food production needs to move closer. Corn fields need to be bulldozed and planted in real food. Lawns need to be outlawed and converted to wheat. We need to cut meat consumption drastically and start eating city squirrels and rabbits. Inmates in prison need to be used as slave labor. Kids in school need to get their hands dirty. Video games must be outlawed, along with Miley Cyrus. Only one shower per week. Only 1 gallon of fuel per week. No processed foods. Only 1 child, #2 and you get taxed out the wazoo...#3 and you get sent to the fields to pick rocks for 10 years.

Did i miss anything?

Transportation is only currently 18% of food cost. Being a locavore won't change much, except your palette. Chile having a climate opposite ours and a market that uses water for high-value crops has made us used to cheap asparagus in October. Massive Farm Bill subsidies have made cheap cr*p from corn more affordable than truck crops.

I suggest some need to watch the movie again to understand what it is saying. Our entire food infrastructure is screwed up - corn prices thru the roof because of ethanol and crop failures is your clue. Food production by a tiny fraction of our population is another.

It will take a generation at least to fix this mess, and sure taking out lawns and putting in a veggie garden is great, but waaaaaaay too many people are not skilled enough to even think about starting to make this a viable solution for many years, let alone having enough time to tend a garden.

Now is a good time to start, but policies and minds are not changed overnight, and many places will resist. And multibillion multinationals have lots of money to game the system.

Baby steps and less hyperbole.

Dan

Interesting conversation. No matter what the local gardener/market farmer does, there will always be someone who will do it cheaper. Economies of scale will beat the local guy down every time. They will also prove, or try to prove to you that it is cheaper to ship the lettuce from California to elsewhere than to eat it from local sources.

To me, it isn't about cheap. It is about flavor and nutrition and over all healthiness. We have 2 freezers with beef and pork. We also have frozen veggies and fruits. I market garden and feed my family from our 1/2 acre garden and 5,000 square feet of high tunnel growing space. We are gardening year around. Every meal is almost 100% homegrown and we eat better than most gourmet cooks!

We feed our family of 6 on about $60-$70 a week. When we buy stuff at the store it is usually dairy products, some fruit, crackers, cereal, and some bread. We have found a source for local cheese and really enjoy that, but it is expensive.

How about everyone do what they can to make the world a better place and put up a high tunnel in their back yards!

Frank - I do actually agree with two of the things you've indicated.

A large portion of poverty is because some of the population understands that by having more kids, they can get more government aid. And by having those kids from different fathers, they then get child support from different people. Some folks live off of this and don't even work. I'm very pessimistic when it comes to this front - because I live in a city where this issue is rampant beyond belief. There are jobs (minimum wage though) available in our town but they go unfilled because people make more by living off the system than working. To me, there is a quick solution to this issue - although I'm not going to air it here because it is controversial.

It sickened me to see a Dateline episode on TV where there was a 21 year old girl - living in a van and at a grandma's house when she could - with four kids. Who has four kids by the time they are 21 years old! No wonder why that individual lives in poverty. But rest assured, they get over $800 in food stamps a month that you & I pay for.

Inmates doing work - absolutely! They have a better quality life than folks living in poverty - all on our dime. They just sit in a cell and rot for years with some luxuries that some of us other folks cannot afford. We do have an inmate work program here at our county jail - but only a very small percentage can participate in it. These people did something to wrong society - so they need to pay by helping out society - not by continuing to be a drain on society. The "wages" that these inmates would make by performing whatever work could then be placed into the correctional system to assist with maintenance costs.

I know a lot of your post was sarcasm (or at least certainly seemed that way) - but the inmate and population issues popped out.

Dan -

I've converted a good percentage of my front yard to gardening and food production. I'm actually surprised that my neighbors haven't said anything about it.

Sure, an apple tree is kind of typical; most everyone has a tree in the front yard. But I also have a large grape trellis that is about 8 x 12 in size in the front yard as well. Add on two 4 x 4 strawberry pyramids to the back of the trellis.

{{gwi:117522}}

Lastly, I then have a raised bed. Last year it was 4 x 20 - then this year I added on an additional 4x20 bed. It took an enormous amount of work to dig all of the Zoysia sod up before starting the beds - and then I used compost from the county compost facility to fill them. Granted, there surely is not enough compost at the county facility to do what I've done in every yard in the city - but there would be enough for a few thousand homes I would imagine.

{{gwi:117523}}

We are blessed to live in Amish country, so we have ready access to homegrown veggies -- not always totally organic, but certainly local and seasonal. During the growing season we get almost all our veggies from local farmers. We have also been transitioning to buying more of our meat and poultry directly from farmers...we've bought dressed chickens from our Amish friends, and we know two farmers who sell their own meat, processed and packaged by a local packing company; we also live near the Great Lakes, and make a couple of trips a year to fisheries to stock up on our area's great whitefish, lake trout, etc.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that organic/local food is always more expensive; that isn't true with Amish-grown food in our area; and even the certified organic meat we buy is cheaper than processed food. We've made a choice in our household to avoid processed, "convenience" foods whenever possible -- partly on principle for numerous reasons, partly because my partner has an ostomy, a situation that makes her very sensitive to food addditives, and because I suffer from hypertension and don't need the extra salt that's regularly dumped into packaged food.

I come to forums like this because I want to learn how to step up my modest gardening efforts so that we can grow more of our own food. Right now snap beans and fresh salad greens during the summer are really my only contributions toward our household goal, but I'd like to be able to do better. I agree that ultimately it's up to individuals' choices (which means more educating of consumers and more accessibility to fresh food for underprivileged people) to take control of our diets away from multinational corporations/Big Ag/the marketing industry.

What gets me are attempts to turn healthy eating into a political issue...pundits of a certain political persuasion cracking on local sourcing of food, making better food choices, etc., as "elitist." Oh, give me a freaking break. I am in contact with many people of all socioeconomic classes, and I can tell you that people with limited incomes, if they care about their health, are just as interested in locally sourced/organic foods as wealthier people. It's all about access for them, and education for the people who think that Cheetos and pork rinds washed down with Mountain Dew constitutes a meal.

IIRC most people in America live on 8000sf lots or less. That cuts into food production at home. When I semiretire I'll help these folks maximize their space hopefully as a part-time consultancy. Nonetheless, the skill isn't there to shift away from industrial ag. One must start somewhere and today is as good as any, but the shift will be a long time coming, as we are so far behind. Jus' sayin'.

Dan

Thanks for the post, bsntech. Sobering how messed up our food production and consumption is.

A few reflections:
The food industry isn't called out nearly enough in conversations like this. It is responsible for taking good gifts like wheat and corn and turning it into products that harm us. (Watch King Corn along with Food, Inc.)

I absolutely disagree that there's not enough land to feed everyone. Nor that old-fashioned organic gardening is inadequate for the amount of population on earth. Part of this comes from my knowledge of the Creator, who provides abundantly when his laws are obeyed. Part comes from reading and observation.

I do think people need to eat different food than we've come to expect. There is fresh produce through the winter if you plan for it: onions, potatoes, winter squash, leeks, parsnips, carrots, etc. Read Laura Ingalls Wilder's Farmer Boy for a lovely description of plannning food for the winter. Perhaps everyone can't grow all their own food, but way more people could grow some of their own food.

See how Joel Salatin, featured in one of those movies, and in Michael Pollan's The Omnivore's Dilemma, husbands his land and animals, for a truly stewardly use of God's gifts. Another good book is Animal, Vegetable, Miracle by Barbara Kingsolver. And Mother Earth News and Organic Gardening magazines (probably others I don't know about) have been giving ideas on sustainable living for decades.

Cheap food is only cheap to the buyer; it costs the environment a huge amount. We must get past looking for the lowest price for food and consider other factors.

As we read about the urban decay in cities like Detroit and Gary, IN, it seems to me that here's a wonderful opportunity to establish urban garden and farm areas. I heard a guy on NPR who is advocating "vertical gardening" growing produce hydroponically in urban buildings. The answers are there. How bad do things have to get before we start applying them?

Wow, this is a really fascinating discussion, and I'm glad Wow, interesting discussion, I just hope it overall it isn't quite a contentious as some of the recent ones.

Maybe I'm an idiot who just doesn't understand anything, but I fail to understand the argument that we shouldn't try to grow local food because it's just cheaper overall to truck it in from half a continent or half a world away. That's all fine and dandy while the Texas Tea is flowing, but what happens when it doesn't flow so freely anymore and the cost factor goes the other way. If we aren't prepared to quickly replace long-range imports with local, there WILL be problems. Encouraging local now is, IMO, an insurance policy against things that could go wrong with the big system at any time.

Do I think that there are vested interests, big agribiz, big food manufacturers, that feel threatened by the nascent local foods movement? Sure I do. I don't know how far they would be willing to go to squash it. I think hype and hyperbole overall have replaced reason and clear thinking on virtually every issue today, anyway, in the age of the 20 second soundbite.

And yes, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I enjoy all kinds of non-local foods -- chocolate and shrimp, pineapple and tumeric and ginger, you name it.

But, I think that the vast majority of the US population COULD grow significant amounts of their own food. Sure, it will vary by region and climate, but there is no reason that most people couldn't grow something. As I see, the problem is that people are more into mindless recreation that produces nothing of real value than into doing something positive and worthwhile. But, maybe that's just me, maybe I'm the abnormal one.

All I ever keep thinking of whenever these types of discussion come up are all of the tales my mother tells me about what her generation went through during the Depression and WWII. They faced problems that make ours today look pretty minor, IMO, and they came through them in no small part due to having a sense of community and working together. My mother was a child during the Depression years and a teenager during the war years, and she pretty much experienced it all, from living in relative wealth when very young to living literally in a one room tarpaper shack when her family lost everything during the Depression, and then getting back on their feet and doing Victory gardens, rubber drives, etc. during the war years.

When we were attacked at Pearl Harbor, the response afterwards by our government was to organize, to pull together, to cooperate. When we were attacked on 9/11, we were told afterwards to shop. When the bottom nearly fell out of the economy two years ago, none of us were really told to conserve, to economize, to help each other. I find it all disappointing. I mean, sure, we shouldn't HAVE to be told anything, in theory, we're adults, but as a country, I think we needed much more leadership than we've been shown by either political party.

I guess all I can say is that, had FDR and the Congress acted back then like our leaders, both R and D do now, everyone now living east of the Rockies would probably wake up daily and salute their Fuhrer, while those west of the Rockies no doubt would bow daily to their Emperor.

"I fail to understand the argument that we shouldn't try to grow local food because it's just cheaper overall to truck it in from half a continent or half a world away."

It's a good argument, but it won't happen without huge consumer demand which isn't even close to there. People don't see this as an emergency and many aren't concerned.

Many people don't realize the difference between a "food" farmer and a farmer that grows tons of grain products for animal feed and export. The guy growing tomatoes on 10 acres is the same as the guy growing corn on 1000 acres. The subsidies are far from similar, but when people bring up the Farm Bill the feeling of most people in the US is "oh yeah, farms are good. we need that." There's very little looking into where the policy is and how much money is going to what. Back in the 80s all most people knew about the Farm Bill is it's that thing that "pays people not to grow stuff."

People are busy caring about other stuff...like Chilean mine rescues which ultimately mean nothing and will be totally forgotten about within a few weeks.

Food policy should be more important, but the apathy is huge.

Victory gardens were prevalent because the knowledge hadn't been lost. Today, we use cheap energy to replace many things, one of which is knowledge.

Of course when the cheap energy goes away we'll have to figure out something else, and we should start today down that road. But the distance and - as above - the apathy is large. Our societal systems are set up for separation and distance. Not knowledge. One must change society to change food. You cannot change food without changing society.

Dan

Farms ARE good and we do need farms. If farmers are forced to sell their land to developers, that will be it. We really will be dependent on other countries for our food production...not a good idea, IMO.

Wordwiz- LOL! Didn't you "borrow" part of that from Geiko?

Even in our area, which has very long winters and a fairly short growing season, people are becoming much more aware of buying food produced locally...including chicken and beef. Many people are willing to pay more for quality food, even with the current economy.

A lot more people are starting to have their own gardens again, too. I think part of this is because they don't have the money for vacations in the summer, so they're fixing up their yards and doing more at home. Lots of flowers, fruit trees, veggies, brambles, etc. It's a good trend and I hope it continues :)

most people in America live on 8000sf lots or less

OK lets give half that to the house, and almost another quarter for the garage and walkways. A 50x50 garden makes 2500sf. How much food can you grow in a 50x50 space?

English rowhouse tenants call their tiny yards "back gardens" and many still garden in them, or on allotments. I wonder how many square feet a city back garden or allotment is. Probably less than 50x50.

BSN is absolutely right about welfare wastrels and prison inmates. As the media portrays it, hardworking people are "haters" and criminals, gangsters, and b***hes (their own words for themselves these days)expect to be loved and given to and welcomed. How DARE anyone suggest that they work hard or give back to the community? Apparently criminals today deserve to hate good hardworking people and to steal from them at every opportunity, which is another reason why city people can't garden, it would just be stolen.

Also, if you can't grow cheetos, chips and soda, you can't grow "food." Has anyone noticed the controversy in NYC over banning the use of food stamps to buy soda pop? How dare we deny sugar water to entitled poor people? How dare we cut into the profits of soda corporations?

Most criminals are doing crime to support a lifestyle that jail/prison severely disrupts. Eating ramen and school cafeteria food while living in concrete around jerks isn't something most inmates consider a vacation. They'd much rather been on the streets with their freedom, drugs, and variety of life. Criminals tend to make decent tax-free loot, they just do stupid stuff with it. Well, the non-white-collar criminals, anyway.

"As the media portrays it, hardworking people are "haters" and criminals, gangsters, and b***hes"

You should strongly consider changing your media information outlets if they disrespect their audience that much. CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and my local news don't go there.

nc-crn, you've misquoted me. I said

As the media portrays it, hardworking people are "haters"

The other words apply to the criminal class, which by the way is not isolated to any one race, before anyone mentions it. Thieves and criminals of all races can be found today, demanding their entitlements. Some of them are in politics, or work in large corporations, or are lobbyists for them.

Dan, I suggest you are overstating the skill deficit. Modest food-production with appropriate crops ain't the old rocket-science, is it? Not IME, anyway. Certainly it is very true that cheap energy nearly totally removes the motivation. I would say that is what prevents home food production.

Happyday hit the nail on the head. Not only is New York trying to pass it, one of our state legislators that represent our area of Illinois introduced a similar bill as well. It would no longer allow food stamps to be used on candy, chips, sodas, or other junk foods. It also would require food stamp recipients to have random drug screenings.

I haven't heard any more on this issue for our state. But a welfare-loving state such as Illinois is over $13 billion in debt - and I wonder just how much of that $13 billion goes towards welfare plans such as food stamps and free health insurance. It is such a shame - I get sick and even with me paying $250 a month for health insurance, I still have to pay $4,000 before the health insurance kicks in - and then it stops at a cap of $30,000. State health care is given to people free - so they can get anything done for free - without co-payment.

When you think about it - it is almost like us working class are the slaves - and those living on public aid are the high-rollers with all of the benefits. Never do they have to worry about where their food comes from (some get food stamps and still frequent the food pantry) - and never do they worry about going bankrupt and losing everything over health care bills.

OK - again, I apologize - I'm getting way off topic from what this thread really is about - us changing our food supply.

Well, ok, so it's going a little off-topic into discussions beyond food, but it's still very interesting, IMO.

Happyday wrote "Also, if you can't grow cheetos, chips and soda, you can't grow "food." Has anyone noticed the controversy in NYC over banning the use of food stamps to buy soda pop? How dare we deny sugar water to entitled poor people? How dare we cut into the profits of soda corporations?"

I have to agree with the first part. I've stated here on gardenweb many times that I have trouble giving produce away, and the more exotic it is, the harder it is to get people to take it. Most people will take a bag of apples or tomatoes or a quart of strawberries. Try handing them a bag full of celeriac or kohlrabi or escarole and most people will stare at you like you're trying to hand them a bag of cobras or hand grenades. I think a lot of this is due to a culture of both convenience and abundance. It it doesn't come pre-sliced, pre-washed, and pre-trimmed so that it can be consumed directly from the packaging, most people don't want it. And, most people, from what I've seen, have become very picky about their food, and subsist on a very limited variety of foodstuffs, most highly processed and barren of nutrients as many have pointed out.

However, I really am uncomfortable with the latter part of this statement. While I feel that all people should stay away from "junk food" and especially something as nutritionally void as carbonated soft drinks full of highly suspect HFCS, I personally am very uncomfortable with the concept of singling out the recipients of foodstamps and further stigmatizing them by telling them that they are not allowed to purchase the same foods as everyone else. Yes, I know they are already restricted, no alcohol, etc., but that is still how I feel.

I wonder how many of you have ever been on foodstamps? There was a time when my sister was, she was freshly divorced, in her late 20's with two young children and an ex-husband who could no longer support even himself because of depression and several suicide attempts, let alone pay child support. It was hard for her to accept the fact that she needed assistance, and it was certainly not easy using them, as she would often get comments in the checkout line, etc. This was in the late 1970s, and she wasn't exactly a slouch, having a BS and teaching credentials, but then, like now, jobs were very hard to come by, and throw in daycare issues, etc., ... well, let me just say, it was no party by any means.

I do believe that the statement about soda companies fighting to pre-empt this type of movement is true. They stand to lose a lot of profits if our society goes after the consumption of products like soda in the same way it went after the tobacco companies with taxes and lawsuits.

As pnbrown said, growing your own food is NOT rocket science -- most people could quickly and easily be taught to grow a share of their own produce if only they were given the space and the opportunity.

I think a lot of the problem lies in the fact that such things are often considered at best quaint and old fashioned, or at worst "lowly" or "undignified" -- we've had those discussions on here before, too, about how suburbanites in fancy McMansions get uptight about someone who wants to grow a few tomato plants against their HOA rules.

If you would like free range meat for a very reasonable price, come to my county and go deer and turkey hunting. Don't worry, you couldn't even put a tiny dent in the populations with a machine gun and unlimited ammo.

BTW folks, there are thousands of lakes, streams, rivers and ponds in addition to thousands of miles of ocean shoreline in the USA alone, try fishing for your meat.

HOA rules Has anyone seen that X-Files episode about the garbage golem monster that emerged from the sewer and killed anyone who committed the tiniest infraction against the HOA rules?

WOW! So many topics!
In a nutshell, I try to grow as much as I can (along with sharing with neighbors), can't really afford to buy "organic" meats, but DO try to buy as much as I can and buy local.
Agree that food stamps shouldn't be used for "junk food" (but how do you determine "junk food")
Many inner-cities are starting community gardens! We have some in our area and have thought about starting one in my 1/2 acre field, but I'm a couple of miles out of any town.
Use the farmers market for what I'm not growing or to try something I might want to grow next year.
Most of us gardeners are of a similar mindset that we would like to keep as much as possible local and as organic as possible. We do the best we can do and should be proud of what we do and proud of the ones we persuade to come over to our side!
Happy gardening! Nancy

Hello. i have not seen the movie yet, but have been hearing about it for some time. I read an article in, I believe a Popular Science magazine, about a year ago about making high rise buildings into growing farms. made a lot of sense. Did anyone else read it? Seemed like a great idea. Lots of benefits. If you have not read it maybe it is online somewhere. I will look for it.

One example ofJapanese rooftop gardens

{{gwi:117524}}

If you liked "Food Inc",
You would probably like "King Corn".
If you like to read you'll probably like "The Omnivore's Dilemma".

Good to see this discussion happening. I personally am looking forward to the day I stop renting and have my own land where I can raise my own protein source (chicken eggs). I'd also like to learn to hunt and do the land a favor and help control the deer and feral pig population. I guess my damn container garden will have to do for now......

"Th Future of Food" is also an excellent movie, in this vein.

I have no issues helping someone who is down. I don't think anyone starts out in life desiring to be on welfare. However, if you have to pass a drug test to work, then you ought to pass a drug test to get aid.

Brook

Owning land is for the wealthy today. If you didn't get in during the early '90s, you missed the boat. My family bought 62 acres (1992) for $18,000... The land right now sells for $3000/acre in that area and they could have a buyer tomorrow if they wanted to sell (the neighbors would buy it in a heartbeat...these landowner types seem to have unlimited supplies of cash it seems). They pay NO TAXES whatsoever on the land (they make money off the crops which they lease out, so they don't have to touch a tractor), the rest of the woods are in "Forest Management". Basically with the two fields that are 12 acres or around that, they make over $1000 for doing nothing. Now think if they had some huge fields, couple hundred acres...your talking 10 of thousands of dollars, just for owning a piece of land, plus you can sell it tomorrow and cash out. Whats my point? I'm priced out! I can't afford 5 acres, and on top of that even if i did come up with the money, its an hour drive each way...so i'm at the mercy of gasoline prices (which will only go up).

I'm a firm believer in the peaking of oil supplies (its either happened, is happening right now or will happen shortly). I use to be an extreme doomer (i've followed this since 2001) but have come around to being a lot more optimistic. There are huge changes that need to take place (less cars/more rail) that this country is stalling on, while our Red Chinese Communist debt lords are going full steam ahead on (they have 8000 miles of high speed rail and continue to build more)..we have the 80mph Acela! Its sad how backwards this country is. We would rather fight others then try to solve our own problems.

I have no problem with shipping food vast distances, if done correctly. The efficiency of hauling large amts by rail or train is huge. A loaded train can haul a ton of goods 400-500 miles on 1 gallon of fuel. A container ship is in that ballpark too. So even the finest Galia melons grown in the deserts of California only require a small amt of fuel to make the trip to the midwest....by rail (right now its probably by truck...about 25% as efficient as rail). There are a lot of things that just won't grow up here (subtropical/tropical fruit) that will hopefully continue to be exported northward (or i'm moving!). Most of the fuel consumed in the shipping of food is the last few miles you drive home from the grocery store in your personal auto.

Rooftop gardening looks cool and makes a lot of sense. Soaks up rainwater, cools the building below, plus allows you to grow food in the city.

May I suggest buying eggs, meat, fertilizer from local 4H youngsters? Animals are humanely raised.

I suggest reading FAST FOOD NATION - The Dark Side of The All American Meal.
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Country of Origin Labeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Food_Nation
...snip....retailers, such as full-line grocery stores, supermarkets, and club warehouse stores, notify their customers with information regarding the source of certain foods. Food products, (covered commodities) contained in the law include muscle cut and ground meats: beef, veal, pork, lamb, goat, and chicken; wild and farm-raised fish and shellfish; fresh and frozen fruits and vegetables; peanuts, pecans, and macadamia nuts; and ginseng. Regulations for fish and shellfish covered commodities (7 CFR Part 60) became effective in 2005. The final rule for all covered commodities (7 CFR Part 60 and Part 65) went into effect on March 16, 2009. AMS is responsible for administration and enforcement of COOL.
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As our nation's population increases, much of our food supply is grown outside our nation. Here in CA, the Great Central Valley is being 'urbanized' at the fastest rate in our state. Our population doubles and triples each decade. As far-removed from food safety, as population control may seem, there is no national security if we don't raise our own food within our borders.
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Census Population Clock http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html

Here is a link that might be useful: FAST FOOD NATION

[[[.....Modest food-production with appropriate crops ain't the old rocket-science, is it?....]]]]

I don't know about that. There are a lot of people that appear to be born with the fingers of death instead of a green thumb, who can't seem to grow anything for even a few days.

We all think gardening is easy, because we do it and perhaps don't really realize how much information we have absorbed over the years and how much we had to learn before we could overcome the bugs and the plant diseases.

Take a look at the library. The information about gardening is enough to fill whole bookcases, and even after reading it all, a person can't grow food until they have learned by doing.

People who have talent at something don't seem to be able to understand how difficult that subject can be for someone who doesn't have any training or natural talent for doing it. I can make almost any dog do nearly anything I ask, so to me, I don't see why people have so much trouble making their dogs behave. Yet for me to try to teach someone else how to do it.... well, to me it is very simple, but to them, it is beyond comprehension.

I'm a pretty good gardener and I grow some really nice fruit, but I don't care how many times I read the directions, I can't seem to master the art of rooting cuttings. Yet to someone who does it, they say, "What's the problem? You stick the cutting into the dirt and it grows."

Very little in this world is easy before you know how and some skills are not ever going to be easy for some people.

I will post but I have a lovely evening of watching some main stream programs about food and food production, a magazine program called FOOD! which is talking about the price of a chicken if we all in the UK ate free range, organic Chicken apparently mid range price would be 24 pounds which compares to the fact you can buy 2 factory farmed for 5 pounds, when faced with those statistics the general public got a bit wobbly, (UK Chickens are not the monster size we get in the US, I was amazed how big they are) but at 40 I remember when having chicken as a kid, was a luxury, I don't think until I was 11 when my Dad got a really well paying job and my Mum was a Hospital Ward manager it ever graced our table, except Easter, I lOVED going to my Rich grandparents on a Sunday as they would do Chicken at least every 2 months, 20 of us, 2 unpumped Chickens, but I don't remember anyone complaining as plenty of veg. I think expectations have changed, and that is the problem, people think food is cheep but fail to take in the Human cost, Animal costs, and environmental costs, as well as the tax cost to support a mad market, I saw King Corn, and was amazed! it beggared belief! I can't remember the politician's name who remembered the depression, and to be fair I couldn't blame him for the decisions he made, but the law of unintended consequences came into play , Food Inc is depressing, funnily enough I am reading Fast Food Nation for the 10 millionth time, I exaggerate but I do tend to read it once or twice a year, it was written ten years ago, so I just hope thing's have changed, but on these programs I fear not :(
got River Cottage to watch for afters :)

Here is a link that might be useful: light relief, a new organic ad, from UK, so you can't buy it :) made me laugh:)

Very little in this world is easy before you know how and some skills are not ever going to be easy for some people.

And yet we pretty much take it for granted that most people ought to be able to learn to read and write, do arithmetic, file taxes, drive a car, operate a computer, program a vcr, cell phone, etc...

Yeo Valley love the hood ornament and the owl!

Franktank: Man, I know what you mean about the land availability problem. I live out here in the middle of the grain belt surrounded by 10s of thousands of acres of land in grain production. Now, you'd think it would be no problem to get a farmer SOMEWHERE around here to sell and acre or 5 to me to farm and/or build a place to live, NO WAY IN HELL!!! Even if I offered them 5-10 times what it was worth would they sell a small plot like that. On the other hand, quarter sections and above commonly sell in this county and for around $1000/A +-. The thought occured to me the other day that the only way I could ever get a small piece of ground (1-5 acres) is to buy a quarter or more, subdivide out my little chunk and sell the rest. Too bad I don't have $160,000 sitting idle looking to used for a speculative land purchase.

meeatplants,

If you start hunting, please hunt the ground hogs! They are truly over populated, a disaster for gardens everywhere, and from what I can understand, they taste very good. The only reason they were not commercially raised like chickens is because they had too many bones, I think it was the ground hogs that tasted good. Oh well, I hope I have my animals right.

I'm one of those black thumb types, plus challenged soil to boot, so there is no hope for me accept for turnip and mustard greens, with a little leaf lettuce.

Has anyone heard that Detroit, Michigan is going to use all there vacant lots for commercial farming? Going back to nature for the big D in some areas. I was born and raised there, moved to Tennessee in 1994, the state of No Opportunity Unless You Have A Car, they really should rename Tennessee to that exact name. Anyways the greatest place in the world that built all those cars I don't own is going under, or rising from the ashes like a Phoenix. I prefer to believe the latter. The recession is not over for anyone for sure. California is going down from what I've heard too.

Will a vegetable garden fix the woes of the world? It will keep a lot of very disappointed people very busy. Idle hands don't do good things, even if they can't grow a thing. If they get lucky, smart, or stay stubborn enough till they get it, it would be beneficial to everyone.

What they need to do is get the gardeners who are already good at it, to try winter gardening if they only had a small lot. Double their take for the year. Unless they are fixing their soil, it would a great bonus.

Maybe if people are shown how to do the 4 season gardening right away, all those small garden places would put out the same as a large one by the end of the seasons. Most of the people I know are heavier, plus they are athletic, so they eat to feed their muscles. I think we are in a good era for sports, my brothers are obsessed and their kids too. The days of going back to a little of this and a little of that to eat is not going to happen, so people should do their part some other way. Raise it themselves.

If given the opportunity, they would raise meat before raising vegetables, the most animal would be the hog if it came to that. It gives lard to fry with, bacon to eat, and the other meat is tolerable. Gardening would at least feed their animals if they don't like vegetables.

Mike, lack of ample cash is no problem - don't you know how developers get started? All you need is the 5 or 10 percent down, get a short term loan on the 1/4 section. All you need is enough time to record your split (and persuade your loan officer to let you do it), and then sell the rest to some other farmer. Simple, right?

But would you really want to be surrounded by all that commercial ag operations? Do they spray the ammonia onto the ground there for wheat, or is that just in corn country?

Heather ... mega thanks for the video .. very clever. I grew up next to a dairy, with fond memories of 'cow pie' fights with my sister ... nothing more bonding than nailing your sib with a semi-firm 'pie'. We're in our 70s and get a lot of mileage out of those idylic days growing up in the country.

pnbrown Very few lending institutions will lend $ for empty land these days!

Mike, check the zoning regulations before you buy! Is subdividing permitted there?

I'll presume the replies addressed to "Mike" apply to me as I could not find other replies from someone named Mike than me! Hope I'm right!

I'm leasing the ground for next to nothing, since the village owns it and has to maintain it with zero income coming from it. The land will be taken, in time, to make an Interstate wider, so it may only be a one year, two year, or 20 year thing - depends on when the state gets the money to do something.

I'm working with the mayor and village manager - both of them support the idea of using unused land for agriculture. I'm assured zoning is not an an issue.

This is, what they call, a demonstration project. Take a piece of ground that is presently not being used for anything at all and turn it into a productive tract. A side angle is the locavore one - growing produce that can be sold to local businesses and individuals at a price far below what they will pay to purveyors.

The village probably has about 85 acres or so of ground that is doing nothing but sitting vacant. If this mini-grow (1/3 of an acre is nothing) works, then next year I might be able to run with the big dogs in the tall weeds.

Yes, the land abuts a major interstate but think of all the free carbon that will be emitted by cars each and every day!

Mike

Pn: you assume I am willing to take a very large financial risk ffrom wich I could never recover if it went south :) Your idea has crossed my mind though; maybe, if my banker and I could agree on a piece of land he wouldn't mind owning if I couldn't sell it we'd be able to deal.

I already live in the middle of commercial ag but in a very small town, there is an elevator 2 blocks away and a spray service 2 blocks away also. Right now there are combines, grain carts and semi trailers hauling grain parked in town and going to and through it. My neighbor is a custom harvester. The mad dash is on to get all the corn, soybeans and milo harvested as well as the winter wheat planted.

Yep, anhydrous is used here on corn, it is knifed in under ground. Being a gas at atmospheric pressure, it wouldn't do any good to try and pour it anywhere, knives work very well if the soil has the right amount of moisture in it.

Nacyjane: there isn't really any empty land around here unless you count the creek bottoms, everything is in crop production in this county and every county around it and more.

Happyday: good point, I suspect there are no zoning restrictions on subdividing within the county. On a less serious note, I don't think there are any laws in the county at all, 1 sheriff and 3 deputies to cover 24/7/365. what do you think? You can not pay your property taxes for in excess of 5 years and not have to worry about the county auctioning off your property.

Michael, I'm sure there are laws, and zoning restrictions, you just have to find out what they are. Try going to the county courthouse and asking for the platting division and asking what the restrictions are. Many agricultural areas restrict subdividing, for very good reasons.

I would ask about the procedures regarding non payment of taxes, too. There may be a five year pre-action period, but you will eventually have to pay that tax, plus any penalties, one way or another.

Unfortunately today it takes lots of money to get good land, so if you want land and don't have lots of money, you may have to take land that is not so good. Or you could try to marry a rich farmer lady. :)

If anybody knows where to find good cheap farmland, please email me, I'm looking myself. :D

Ag regions that restrict subdivision of property tend to be those that are not seriously ag any more - in transition to urban, suburban and ag.

Like Lake county Fla. They drove me utterly nuts trying to do a family lot split on ten acres my folks own there in horse country. It was such unbelievable BS that we gave up after over two years and thousands of dollars spent on surveying and filing fees. I have a new appreciation for the new england system of local government, it is so much more democratic and less intrusive and authoritarian. Most here don't know how good they have it in that regard.

To the fine Lake Co clerks, lackeys, and commissioners: would you please fire yourselves and find productive jobs? Thanks.

PN, we may have differing definitions of the word restrict. I meant it to mean that serious ag areas do not allow any subdivision of property that may lead to transition to urban or suburban. They don't want their taxes to substantially increase to pay for urban or suburban services, for example. They don't want the extra traffic honking at their tractors on the road, or high society types building fancy homes then suing them for "smells" or "sounds" or "overspray" coming from their legitimate agricultural practices.

Ag areas (most areas, actually) usually have minimum parcel size, and some may allow an exemption if you want to subdivide, say, 1 acre to build one house. As an urban ecologist and planner, one of our indicators of impending development is parcel size - there are areas where once you start getting 40 ac parcels, it is only a matter of time.

pn, oftentimes threat of lawsuit will move stuff along, esp if you have your paperwork and you get every single d*mn thing in writing. I know what 'implicit discouragement of development' looks like, and your story is one of the signs.

Dan

Around here, there is a decent supply of 5-10 acre farmettes. We sold our subdivision home and bought our little farm about 5 years ago. The price of the farm was very close to what we could get for our home....and it was only a mile away from where we were living.

Land speculators buy up these farms, split and sell off the land, and then package the farm building with a few acres.

Sure, the old house needs more upkeep, but we have plenty of land for a vegetable garden and an orchard.

In Brown and Adams Counties (OH) sharecropping is still prevalent. The most common arrangement is the landowner provides the land and buys the fertilizer, the grower raises the crop and usually has his own equipment, though sometimes the landowner will allow the use of his. They split the proceeds of the harvest.

Mike