in the title... yeah, its supposed to read "Prune"... i hate when i do that! lol

I'd suggest something more elegant and permanent for the larger tree's support. Like an 8' landscape timber (4 X 4) set in concrete vertically under the first crotch. That would stabilize the tree, which will otherwise bend down from the weight of the apples. Hopefully you'll get some sprouts lower on the trunk to develop the other side.

I would prune them way back rather than use makeshift prop methods. Better to harvest fewer fruit this season for better crops in the future and overall tree vigor.

the makeshift props are just there 'till we mostly finished the fence and can get around to doing something better. we didn't care about making it pretty at the time and it got them through winter without getting them knocked flat.

we didn't have time to do much else before the ground froze. the yard was such a mess and took all summer to clear with the weather being horrible.

...How far back is "way back"? I had considered just lopping the big one off where it bends out of exasperation...
does it need the big branches off?

Should the work be done now or at some other time of this year?

And how far from the trees should the support posts be dug and concreted in?

i don't mind losing a harvest or two from setting things right, i mostly sprayed them to reduce any other things they have to fight through.

i've only begun to be able to do something about them just now and what pruning directions i have found, don't seem to be intended for my situation.

thanks!

if anyone is interested in seeing what work has been done on that new property, i'll add my online journal link.
i don't expect anyone to read all the text, its a journal that i wrote for myself so i ramble, but the pictures i took will give you an idea.

the following link is to the actual blog entry where i showed the pictures in progressive order, scroll past the installation of the siding on the house and you will see the land from the time just before we bought it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Online Journal/Blog

mrclint is suggesting drastic pruning (most of the branches) to stimulate new growth everywhere, which you can then prune into a more desirable shape in future years. I tend to disagree, seeing what you have as about 1/3 of a vase-shaped top.

As long as it doesn't fall over, I'd go for the fruit. The place it needs support is directly under that lowest crotch where the top branching starts. Tie a string there and hang a weight to determine where to dig the posthole. Then fasten a couple of short boards on either side of the trunk at the top of the post.

Thin the fruit to one apple/cluster and keep it sprayed (or bagged if so inclined).

I did not bother to read the blog, but I do congratulate you on absolutely excellent pictures to give a decent idea of what is happening.
I would probably make what they call "heading" cuts on a half dozen of the small taller branches on the bigger tree....maybe cut back 3 feet or so.
I would make just a couple heading cuts of maybe 2 feet or so on the smaller tree....

This would be a "compromise" plan....not too drastic, but enough to start giving the rest of the tree more strength and send out some new shoots lower down.
Ordinarily "heading" cuts aren't recommended much and "thinning" cuts are recommended, but I think I would do this....put simply, cut the tree back a little, play it by ear, see what happens....work with it in the summer again and possibly prune again.....and in the winter, etc, etc, until you start to develop a new tree....all the time propping it up....pruning slowly as you go.
Lot of work.....buying a new one is easier...but you seem to have the heart for it.
(I would also consider learning about "bagging" or applying "foot sox" to your apples so that this year you can determine from their taste just how much these trees are worth to you.)

i know there is going to be a learning curve with this...eep.

i found this definition of Heading Cuts:

*****Heading Cut - removes only the terminal portion of a shoot. This type of cut promotes the growth of lower buds as well as several terminal buds below the cut. When lateral branches are headed into oneyearold wood, the area near the cut is invigorated. The headed branch is much stronger and rigid, resulting in lateral secondary branching. Older trees can be held in their allotted space by mold and hold cuts, which are devigorating heading cuts made into twoyearold wood. Young trees and branches where heading cuts are made will be referred to as headed.******

I'm not sure if i could determine one year old wood from 2 year old wood. I noticed every branch has those short points on them, i assume these are the spurs? Is the one year old wood from last season or is it this season's future growth.

i, uh, grow...vegetables. I am totally lost when it comes to trees. I can't even make my Bay Laurel house plant behave.

Yeah, the blog link is to assure you all that i do intend to seriously do something with these trees, since i will probably have to ask a boatload of really stupid questions before i get the idea (you may think i am jerking everyone around otherwise). There's vocabulary that is new to me with fruit trees and i don't have a mental base of comparison. The orchard trees around here are magnificent creatures, but they bear no resemblance to my lanky orphans.

.....Ok, so the prop post should be placed near the trunk and underneath the part of the trunk that is bent to the right?
i was thinking the opposite- put the post to the left and rope the tree to the post past the point where it bends, like trying to straighten it. I was also thinking the post would have to be further away because i was worried about damaging the roots.
Are apple tree roots formed more straight down rather than shallow and wide?

So i guess i need the dumbed-down definition of a heading cut before i ask too many more beginner questions.

But thanks so far, differences of opinions are at least telling me i have a few options, this is good!

Not near the trunk, directly under the first big crotch of the top. You can't straighten that trunk, only keep the tree from falling over.

The smaller one would probably be best tied to a metal fencepost driven in on the side opposite your prop. Or you might want to use "stays" (like tent anchors) and wires or ropes. Easier to mow with the post. You can pull the fencepost up next year, it won't be needed.

Two points here:

1. Icebear, don't worry about all the jargon....just cut the tree back some and watch and see what happens....you learn by doing....the one year growth from last year will look like a "pencil" in width, will not have any side spurs, and will begin from something like a "node" from the two-year growth.....but don't worry about any of that.....just do a little and watch and learn and have fun as you go......in my silly opinion and all.

2. To the other more "proficient" gardeners out there: I learned something else new today from the latest edition of the GoodFruit Grower. (I am an idiot...ignore the "applesee" thing). Apparently, AFTER blossom time in mid to late Spring is actually the IDEAL time to make heading cuts that stimulate new growth further down the branch and away from the heading cut....so NOW is probably the best time for this....not winter or summer to bring from dormancy some of the buds further in the interior of the tree, or lower down rather.

Hello Icebear.

Plants grow by adding cells at the tips of their branches- so last year's growth is always the growth at the end of the branch. If you go out and look you'll see it- it's the last few inches, and it looks fresher, younger, and smoother, and usually is more flexible. On older trees it may be a very short section, but in younger trees it can be a foot or more easily, depending on lots of factors.

There is a distinct junction where last year's growth takes off from the growth of the year before, and with a very little effort you'll be able to track a branch year by year all the way to the trunk.

Along that branch you'll also see the tree's spare parts: dozens of buds that it keeps in reserve to form new branches if circumstances require and permit. You'll also see that some of them point off in one way and some in another; with very little imagination you'll see in which way a branch that emerges from a given bud will take off.

In a heading cut one cuts back to an appropriately placed and fortuitously aimed bud. The bud will take off and replace the removed wood.

At the same time some of the other spare buds behind the terminal bud you just removed will start to emerge (because the terminal bud produces a hormone that prevents emergence of the other buds). Heading cuts, (pinching back) makes plants bushy. Some of that bushiness will be welcome, and some won't. You'll have to go back in and remove some of the bushy stuff during the summer. On most, or at least much, of that bushy stuff you'll just cut it back all the way to its source- you'll thin it out completely, and you don't expect it or want it to come back.

So those are two basic cuts: heading, which keeps the tree to a given size and shape, and thinning, which keeps it open enough. They're used to control the tree's size and productivity, and they also provide the tools to replace aging wood with fresh, when aging branches are removed to permit new branches to come in.

Have I gone on too long? I tend to do that, and you'll get more experienced advice from others on this board- some of them may correct me and you should listen to them. But I thought some basic terminology might be useful, so there ya' have it!

Good luck,

M

Thanks for the great descriptions and willing help, i didn't get the chance to come back (or prune much of anything yet) until now. Working on the veggie garden has taken much of my outside time and internet search time.

I plan to try and ask a few more questions in this thread as i go through. (i have an exceptionally bad memory so i need as much in one place as possible)
I happened to take the time to come back in because we had a pretty stiff frost last night.
I need to get a wireless thermometer that i can mount over by the apples so i can keep accurate records, but one town over recorded a low temp last night of 27 degrees F (a record). I'm wondering if my trees were damaged. They have been in bloom for about a week and the flowers were just about blown (i think its called "petal fall" in Orchardspeak?)
Maybe its not a bad thing that i have done very little pruning, since anything that was damaged should be thinned away.
So i'll be looking into how to know what is damaged and what to do about it.

I hope this weekend i can get hubby to help put the support posts in for the two trees. We have so much stuff that needs doing around here that tasks are on waiting lists. But i think once the trees are in their 'as upright as possible' final positions, i will be able to do some pruning. Its funny because i read some here and i find an online article, then i think i have it mapped out in my head and i grab the pruners and walk out to the trees.... and then i lose my nerve. Its so strange!

I hope it is really hard to ruin an apple tree. The big one is more like a vine than a tree.

Here is a link that might be useful: Going Yard

Hell, I'd just lop off the tops and rebuild. That would solve the leaning problem and allow you to make attractive trees of them.

One of them starts straight has some lower branches and then veers off course, hell-bent for light. You can either cut it off at the crook or try straightening it with a hinge and heavy stake. The hinge you make by cutting a third deep into the trunk on the side you're bending it to. Make about 5 cuts (or as many as it takes to make trunk flexible) with a sharp saw about 3/4" apart. Have someone hold it straight while you tape it to the stake.

The trees are worth saving because even if you cut them way back the roots will assure good vigor for regrowth. Just keep the competition away with a 5' mulched ring at base.

Lop off the top... that is pretty much what i thought i'd have to do to the big one at least. Never thought or read about the hinge straightening method before although i did wonder if something of the sort could be done.
I even got an email from Oikos tree crops about their mulch mats and wondered if i should get a couple. I think i might.

What is the best time to have a go at the big tree? It is any time of year or right about now is good?
I'd like to keep these trees fairly small, i had thought they were dwarfs before i knew that both standard and dwarf were most always grafted. Growing up, all i had ever seen of apple trees growing on family land were seed grown except the one 3-in-one my grandfather had cobbled together himself many, many years ago.

The big one is almost too tall to get the spray onto all the way to the top, so i won't miss losing any height.

Also, is Bonide Fruit Tree Spray a good spray for these trees? I didn't know what exactly what to look for when i decided i needed to do something. I knew the trees had problems, but i didn't know where to begin looking them up. So i got what i hope is an effective broad-spectrum remedy. Is there something better i can get and something i can use right off?
I first used the Bonide just as the leaves were unfurling and again when the flowers were all pink but not opened. The petals are falling, but not fast and they are turning brownish orange. There are even some buds that haven't opened yet... is that normal or a sign of an issue?
I'm supposed to use the Bonide again when the petals fall but where it seems to be taking an extended time doing so, i'm wondering if the starting fruit will get attacked by something in the mean time.
I tried finding a pictoral guide to pests & diseases of apples, but i didn't find anything i could use.
I bought "The Pruning Book" by Lee Reich the other day, it won't arrive for a while in the mail. I have looked at other orchard books but i don't want to end up with less than helpful information... books are not cheap in any media.

I was looking at the trees this morning and i was thinking... would it be stupid to just prune off anything that isn't flowering? Like the obvious suckers just shooting straight up. At least on the small one.
I'd need a ladder anyway!

Thanks for putting up with the rambling!

i'm back.

right now the big tree looks well behind the little tree. i think some of the working around it last fall has weakened it and it flowered but hasn't fruited and the leaves are half-sized and the whole tree looks like it is having a very rough year... it really looks water starved. The Bonide spray seems to be keeping both trees disease and relatively bug-free at least.

I almost want to simply remove the whole thing. The little tree is being interfered with too much. tangled branches and the big tree is blocking sunlight. 4 feet apart is plainly much too close. In a way its good for the little tree that the big tree is doing so poorly this year, the big tree has fewer leaves to block the sun from the small one. The small tree is comparatively thriving

But i think we will cut the big tree at the point where it is going wrong, maybe move it away a bit or see if my parents want it ( about 15 miles away.)

There are a lot of wild apple trees around here, i'm not certain, but i think they will be enough to pollinate the remaining tree from here on out if we do remove the big one entirely...? Is that a reasonable expectation?

I wish the former owners simply didn't plant the poor things so close together.

Oh and last question for now. When we cut the big tree, should the cut be slanted to allow water to run off? Just checking, because a slanted cut will create more surface area, but a flat cut might pool water. I'm leaning toward the slanted cut, but as a complete noob, i want to double check.
I do know that no 'wound dressing' is necessary.

Thanks again!