If you want, I'll e-mail you an article I wrote about this that should more than cover your questions.

I have read elsewhere that pruning large branches of mulberry (and maybe fig, which is related) is risky. So it might be an exception.

harvestman, please post the article or email it to me.

murky, I've had help posting it here in the past but I'm incompetent at the technique of linking from here. You can e-mail me through this site and I'll get it to you.

Pruning is more dificult than I thought. Last year I thought I did pretty good then I read something else and I start doubting myself. It seems like the more I learn the more I question my pruning. I know if I stick with it In a couple of years I'll be pretty good at it. In the past two years I have planted espalier, a tall spindle row, semidwarf and dwarf apple trees. I have overloaded my brain with different pruning techniques. I would be interested in any information.

So Harvestman's article made a lot of sense, and mostly it seems like the concept is pretty workable, but when I look at some young trees I have this lingering fear of winding up with a tree without any lower limbs or with limbs that are too weak to compete with the top of the tree for sunlight and nutrients. How many times can I cut the too-large lower limbs off before I lose any hope of lower scaffolds?

So far using an open center Vase has worked good for me here in South GA for good drying but too for spraying. I keep my semidwarf fruit trees trimmed to height that I can reach from the ground with hand held loping shears say about 3 feet long. That keeps everything in spray reach using my electric sprayer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Georgia Home Orchard

If you make a horizontal cut when removing an oversized branch leaving a tiny bit of it you will likely get a new branch of less vigor to grow in that spot.

Training a tree to an open center by selecting 3 or 4 branches of approximately equal diameter the first or second year of establishment has been used for centuries and can work just fine.

I prefer starting all trees as a central leader because I can use the trunk to place spreaders for my scaffolds when they are forming and if I use branches of significantly less diameter than the trunk at point of attachment the unions will be strong and the branch easier to manage. Peach branches will be less likely to break under the load of fruit and J. plum branches will be more conducive to secondary branching.

There is no one way to train or prune a fruit tree. However, the 1/3 diameter rule can be used for a lot more than selecting scaffolds- if you remove excessively vigorous secondary and eventually tertiary branches when thinning crowded wood you will end up with a stronger, more productive tree.

Is this like the vertical axis pruning where you leave about four limbs on the bottom to grow out? And then prune off all the above growing limbs when they reach 1/3 size. Leaving a bevel cut for regrowth.

Harvestman, that is interesting. At what point do you recommended cutting the center section out? I am sure open to trying a new way but with the heat and humidity down here I feel like I need to keep it open in the center.

Right now what I have been doing is cutting off the newly planted whip to 30" then training from there which works but it can get out of hand quickly if I don't stay on top of it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Georgia Home Orchard

I just wrote a very long explanation to both questions which I lost somehow when my computer froze up so I only have time for quick reply now.

With stone fruit I cut out the tree to open center sometimes as soon as the scaffolds are established at the angle I want them, but it can be an asset to keep it for several years to use to tie the scaffolds to when they are loaded with fruit- especially with peaches. You summer prune to keep the center from excessively shading lower scaffolds in this case.

Otherwise I will cut out the center when it becomes excessively thick and too difficult to keep in bounds with lower scaffolds. This even becomes necessary eventually for apples. A new central leader can be allowed to grow from a water sprout if you want to maintain a Christmas tree shape but I would not do this with stone fruit and would keep it as open center from that point on.

I'm not that knowledgeable about new training methods such as central axis as I manage mostly vigorous free standing trees although I've read articles about the different schemes. Some dwarf high density methods have you cycling all scaffolds- removing and regrowing when they reach excessive diameter. The reason they remove them at this point is exactly related to the theory of using less vigorous branches for your permanent scaffolds. However, if you have to wait for such branches to form too long, all advantage is lost.

http://www.goodfruit.com/Search/index.php?urlprefix=%2F&search=&mod=CoreSearch&query=Bas+van+den+Ende&Search=Search

Here's some articles by the man who originally got me thinking about diameter ratios. I wish I had the original article I read by him about 20 years ago when it appeared in Pomona magazine.

In it he described how he trained crews in the simplest way to train apples and pears on free standing root stocks. I mentioned this in the article I wrote that I've sent out to many on this site, "Pruning by Numbers".

Here's a clickable version of harvestman's link:
http://www.goodfruit.com/Search/index.php?urlprefix=/&search=&mod=CoreSearch&query=Bas+van+den+Ende&Search=Search

harvestman, the easiest way to make a link is simply to paste the url in the Optional Link URL box, then give it a name in the Name of the Link box. The name can be anything you like: the url itself, a description, etc.

If you happen to use Firefox, some years back a member named justaguy2 posted about a free Firefox add-on named BBCodeXtra. That automatically provides the codes for making a url a link, posting a photo, italicizing, underlining, etc. Simply highlight the relevant text, right-click, then click on xhtmlXtra, then in the next box click on whatever you want to do.

One of the nice things about the BBCodeXtra add-on is that you can post multiple links in a single post.

You can also look here and learn to do all this manually:
How to do italics and other fun text stuff
dumb question about italics and a link to an HTML tutorial
This explains how to do multiple links in a single post

Thanks Missy.

harvestman - I'm not sure what you meant 7 posts back saying "if you make a horizontal cut when removing an oversized branch" because the picture in my mind is of me trying to remove a scaffold branch that angles away from the trunk just above horizontal and rather than cutting it off perpendicularly I make a very long horizontal cut that eventually severs the scaffold from the trunk. What did I miss?

A horizontal cut should leave the lower part of the branch collar and a bit of the branch at the base of the cut from which the tree will usually grow a replacement branch. Without a picture, that's as well as I can explain it.

harvestman - I think I may understand it now. I make a perpendicular or slightly sloping cutoff of the scaffold and then go back and horizontally cut into the lower part or edge of my first cut, leaving a sort of lip there, maybe beveled to shed rain. Is that it???

It is called a bevel cut but it's not done as you describe. The normal cut would be vertical leaving a slight bulge of the collar (from trunk tissue) when done. A bevel cut leaves more wood on the base- a bit of the branch tissue, which tends to generate new growth more consistently than leaving only the collar. It is still a single cut but done horizontally.

When branches grow the trunk sends out tissue to surround and hold the branch and this is the collar. This provides strength to the union and requires that the trunk grow faster than the branch for it to fully surround the branch and create a strong union.

When branches are removed it is best to leave this collar because the wound closes more quickly then when you cut flush to the trunk. When removing an excessively vigorous branch there may not be a full collar but you still leave more wood at the base if you want a new branch to grow there. A horizontal cut that removes the branch without cutting into the trunk will leave as much extra wood as you need for this purpose. At least that's the theory.

harvestman - My problem may be with the use of the word "horizontal" or my understanding of it. What you described above I would have described as making a "diagonal" or "slanting" cutoff of the branch, leaving more of the branch at the bottom of the cut as opposed to the top of the cut.

I suppose it depends somewhat on the angle of the branch being cut but a horizontal cut (in line with the horizon) works for me. I have to admit I'm speaking out of my head and not looking at a branch as I prune it- I'm doing some pruning at home today and if my description doesn't actually match what I do in the actual world I will update this.

I would say it depends a whole lot on the angle of the branch that's being cut. That is what prompted my question in the first place as I could not see in my mind how a branch that was nearly horizontal to begin with, as are many of my scaffold branches,could be removed from the trunk with a horizontal cut.

I would add that it also depends on how old the tree is and how old this branch is.

If the tree is one year old and the branch is the same age, I'd cut it off in a heart beat.

We don't really use the 1/3rd rule...if we use anything it is the 1/2 rule. But even that get's murky. The 1:1 rule is really easy.

JRM, who's we and what's your reasoning? Just inserting that you don't use something is not in itself very useful as advice and I think probably does more harm than good in terms of helping people understand the logistics of pruning.

As far as what the exact angle is I think we may be over thinking things. The point is only to leave a small piece of branch tissue on the lower part of the cut- the exact angle of the cut is not important.

HM,

What I am saying is we (our organization) have never used the 1/3 rule. First, it is a bit excessive. 1/2 the diameter of the originating limb seems to be more than sufficient. But on top of that, trying to get crews of 20 pruners to correctly identify 1/2rd is asking for trouble. So even when they are 1/2 of the originating limb, they tend to remain intact.

Let's just assume this is a tree that is under the age of three...all my trees I do now are on a fruiting wall trellis. Trees are anywhere from 3-6ft apart.

The rules I give our pruners are along these lines...

For limbs directly off the leader:

1. If the limb is the same size as the leader, cut it off.

2. Tape flat onto the wire any limb that is within 6in of a trellis wire.

3. If the limb is over 45 degrees vertical cut it off.

For limbs already on the wire:

1. If the limb is the same size as the originating limb, cut it off.

2. If it is more than 45 degrees vertical cut it off.

3. I want my side limbs perpendicular to my wires, so if the side limb is parallel to the wire, cut it off.

4. Head back wire limb to maintain space with adjacent wire limb.

5. Work back side limbs to 4-9in targeting 1-2 fruit buds on Gala and 3-4 on Fuji or Honeycrisp. Heading back 1 year wood is ok if there is a lack of buds and it is too long.

On all cuts above 24in from the ground, make them dirty...a .5 to 1in stub is fine on gala and fuji. 1-2in on Honeycrisp.

That is the general template we use..each block gets tweaked a bit based on what I am seeing and what we did last year that works or doesn't work. My pruning probably seems a bit drastic, but my goal in the first three years is to grow as much tree as possible. Any variety on M9 or Honeycrisp on any root, once they go from a vegetative mode to a reproductive mode it is hard to get them to grow.

Hopefully that clears it up. It was lunch time...I was hungry.

I have waded through countless versions of fruit tree pruning ranging from the modern experts to those found within the yellowed pages of yesteryear.Some are in agreement and some contradictory. One thing they share in common....that being ,removing any branch that shoots skyward from the horizontal branch. Now as a child growing up,my Grandparents owned a century year old schoolhouse about a mile east if the modern day MIS Speedway. On this property were two very productive apple trees from which my Grandmother made countless apple pies. These trees survived her but did not survive the present owners who did not appreciate their oldness. Were they ever pruned by myself or my Grandparents? Only those branches that shot up vertically or branches that seemed quite thin ,but we never subscribed to any geometric theory or other of the pruning theories. I passed by the schoolhouse daily to and from work and it bloomed spectacularly after my family sold the place to a "water store" ....well I digress. The important point here being ....vertical growth from a horizontal branch uses up energy the tree would otherwise use for fruit making. It must then be cut off and if large,the resultant wound on said branch be tended to with tree dressing or oil paint if dressing material not available. I know I took a long time to express an opinion but on the other hand,the general public believe something to be true if it is presented in a complicated manner when it is "easy as pie" !

JM, now I understand. You are speaking of commercial production of fruit trees on dwarfing root stocks. This 1/3 discussion here is loosely based on an article I wrote, and it is about free standing trees (usually M7 or 111) in a home orchard situation.

In the article I state that it is not a hard rule and that for varieties prone to early production (think Braebern) the ratio can be tuned down to 2:1 but that for vigorous varieties (think Fuji)leaving over sized limbs can lead to real problems.

In free standing trees the economy of wood becomes a huge issue if you ignore the relative ratio of branches, not just scaffolds but the ratio of secondary branches to the scaffold they are attached to and tertiery branches to secondaries.

However, in my article, I make it clear that the 1:3 ratio is in no way sacrosanct- only the dominance of the leader, whether speaking of the whole tree or individual scaffolds.

When Bas Van Ende did work as a consultant for huge fruit operations on free standing rootstock in the northwest a couple of decades ago he had crews taught this method because it was the safest most efficient way to get relatively untrained crews to prune these thousand plus acre operations adequately from a production and fruit quality stand point.

JP, there is no universal agreement to remove vertical shoots- sometimes they are spread to a more horizontal position. Ratio has as much to do with vigor as branch angle and if you want to read some more about pruning, I will e-mail you my article. At least then we can discuss the merits of using ratio as a guide in similar context.

Am I the only one who has difficulties in comprehending Harvestman's advice to make a horizontal cut to remove a scaffold branch, even a scaffold branch that itself is nearly horizontal? I have appended a sketch to illustrate the quandry as words have apparently failed me. The only horizontal cut that makes any sense to me is when taking out the central leader but this thread began as a query about scaffold cuts on free standing trees. {{gwi:65053}}

I was talking about training very young trees- those illustrations represent mature scaffolds. Usually the oversized branches are fairly vertical so a nearly horizontal cut won't leave a bunch of wood jutting out.

The method only calls for leaving a bit more wood on the base- no matter what angle is required to do it.

Thanks harvestman for your patience and the clarification. Indeed, I was thinking about rejuvenating older trees rather than training young ones.

The 1-3 rule does not apply to rejuvenating the scaffolds of old trees. It is used when thinning wood on such trees but the scaffolds are pretty much set except when there are too many and then you would eliminate oversized scaffolds- not replace them- at least that is what I do.

If you are replacing upper scaffolds on a central leader tree that would be another story but most of the old apple trees I work on are open center.