The biggest thing I see wrong with these questions are the stipulations. How would it ever be possible to confirm that taking the cuttings wouldn't harm the tree (health, aesthetics, in the event that other follow suite)? How would you ever know for sure that the wood you were taking was going to be pruned off? If you didn't ask for permission, what is the chance you would ever know how the tree would be pruned. To me, these questions seem too hypothetical for me to be able to imagine an answer without tripping over the possibilities, even if I don't consider whether the act of taking the cuttings is stealing.

I always use the (old) rule that basically goes like this: if everyone did what you want to do, would there be a problem? could there be a problem?
It has stopped me when I REALLY wanted to take some cuttings that I'm fairly sure the absence wouldn't be noticed but if everyone stopped by and took a cutting, the results would not be good.

And I wouldn't want a lot of people taking cuttings from my front yard without permission...etc, etc. That's just my ethics, sort of like "the objective observer" standard if you're familiar with that.

To all questions- Don't do it without permission. I have had people stop and shake a hundred apples off my tree to get 3. I have had them stop and pick a bunch of flowers and drive off. Always ask. My land is posted but that does not stop some people. They are either ignorant or jealous or both. Most people are happy to give and you may be able to find out some important info from them.

The answer probably is that its more a question of politeness than anything else. Its polite to ask, rude not to.

I've got a neighbor with a plum tree on a street. I've seen them let those plums go mostly if not entirely to waste year after year. I've never seen them pick a one of them and they often litter the ground. I've asked to take a few before and they've said yes (which I took them some of my other fruit to reciprocate for).

But, its kind of embarrassing somehow to ask every year and I've taken a few (like three or four plums) without getting specific approval. And I always feel guilty. The devil and them sweet plums made me do it. ;)

Perspective #1: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. (Golden rule).
Perspective #2: What your neighbors don't know won't hurt them.
Perspective #3: While you could just steal it, you might be missing out on the possibility of making a great new friend or even just meeting a neighbor, with a living plant in your yard as an affirmation of that relationship. That plant could be a bridge between two (possibly different) people. Maybe there's some small favor you could do for them. Country folks always go for the good neighbor option.

I'm on a tare about this these days, which is really the only reason I'm chiming in, so if I come off the wrong way I'll apologize now. I'm not attacking you, or making any judgments, this is just an opportunity to preach a little.

Any time you take without asking its disrespectful, probably rude and quite possibly theft. I think we're at a point in our society where we need to ask if we really want to lower the standards of acceptable behavior even more, or finally start raise them again. The fact that you've taken the time to ask tells me that you don't really need an answer because you already know that you're going to ask first.

Watch people some time. The parents who argue with the refs at the kids game, when the ref is the only person who was willing to volunteer his time and make the effort to do that favor. The customer at work who wants the discounted price without following the rules set to get it, and then calls the bosses to try to get the worker bee fired because he can't change the rules for them. Or the angry badger at work, you know the one. The co-worker who's always angry and everyone around her walks on eggshells because of it. One of my favorites is the internet expert who berates the old woman on an internet forum because she's too old and busy or some combination thereof to properly care for her fruit trees. We all know at least one of those people, don't we?

If you really want advice on this one, step up not down and you'll be glad you did regardless of the outcome. And never be afraid to look down your nose at the ill mannered and the rude, and never make exceptions for someone who acts like that just because "thats how she is".

Ok, I've got to run out to pick up some sulfur for the garden and maybe a magazine rack for all these issues.

Cheers kids.

d
a v
e

If the variety is patented you need a license and (probably) to pay the royalty. And if someone gives you permission to take a cutting from a patented plant, then you are stealing from the patent holder.

The answer is found in the highlighted words.

Presuming it would not harm the tree, is it unethical to take scionwood without permission

Just go to scionwood exchange and help yourself. Been to two exchanges already.

Friends always invite me to take and put scionwood on their plants.

I don't want to see any of you growing out Sweet Seduction grape. I know the man who "liberated" that cutting from the University of Arkansas (he is deceased now, old age!) and eventually Raintree Nursery got it from him. U of A never planned on that grape getting out.

The U of A has tons of grape cultivars that they will never release, or will trash and you will never hear about it. All done with your tax money of course.

Personally I agree with FruitHacks perspective #3. Meet the people. Hey, they already have something in common with you and you both have excellent taste! I have found that by meeting them over a plant, tree or garden, you have likely found a lifelong aquaintance if not a lifelong friend. And they will in the future either serve as a resevoir for YOUR finds, or you will serve as a resevoir for THEIR finds. It's all good, but you gotta meet them first. Plus they like to be asked, just like we like to be asked.

Universities seem not to fit into that philosophy!

>Presuming it would not harm the tree, is it unethical to >take scionwood without permission:

>From your neighbor?
>From a farmer?
>From a public garden?
>From plants for sale at a nursery?

>What if the tree hasn't been pruned yet and that wood is >definitely going to be pruned off?

My opinion is yes to all five. But when you ask be prepared to take no for an answer because asking implies the right to deny (you won't get permission from a public garden or retail nursery, not all neighbors are neighborly nor farmers generous).
Have I been unethical about cuttings ever? Admittedly yes, a couple of times. I had my reasons which outweighed the wrongness of it but my preference is to ask permission when given the opportunity. The right thing usually takes more effort.

I've found that many people with neglected fruit trees won't show an ounce of interest in them until they catch someone messing with them without permission, and all of a sudden you're committing a capital offense to their precious trees to which they want full restitution.

On the other hand, almost universally when you ask permission, they'll let you take and do whatever you want. If you pick fruit and then make them a pie or something from it, you're almost guaranteed lifetime access to return every season for all the fruit you can carry.

We've made many lifelong friends this way, who become excited if we can tell them the variety they have and how to care for it. It's scary knocking on stranger's doors (especially strangers not used to receiving visitors) but we've found it quite rewarding.

Applenut

Would you mind me takings parts off of your car (it will go to the junk yard some time), or maybe a lawn ornament from your yard, or maybe some of your mail (it looked like it was just junk mail), etc.....

It's not so much about the plant or tree, it's about the person who "owns" it and being respectful of them (and also about your own character and cultivating the good in yourself).
Sometimes taking a cutting or seedpod or piece of fruit doesn't subtract from the plant or tree but sometimes it does (like a Plumeria branch missing makes the tree look lobsided).

I accidentally posted the following in a different thread this morning:

Some home orchardists sanitize their pruning tool between every cut, or every job or whatever they consider appropriate.
How do you know if the owner practices some form of hygeine that your unapproved pruning will violate? What if they are trying to train the tree in a particular manner? How would you know any of this?

What if he's grafted the last stick of his great grandfather's dying tree onto the tree in question and you harvest it off, or inadvertantly damage it during your gathering?

What if a homeowner has several newspapers piled up on the doorstep. They appear to be unwanted, is it OK for you to take them? How many need to be piled up before its OK and how many can you take? What if the owner is saving them for mulch or paper mache and just hasn't bothered to collect them up yet?

I've been tempted to "prune" the trees from the local big box hardware store, but it was so obviously wrong that I didn't do it. If I did so it wouldn't because I thought it was moral or ethical, it would be because I'd succumbed to temptation.

This is a very relevant topic to me, as I find myself in an interesting dilemma...

About three months ago, I knocked on a neighbor's door and asked if I could take cuttings from a tree in the backyard once it was dormant. They agreed and only asked that I knock again to let them know when I was taking them. Since then, the owner's have moved out and given the house back to the bank (according to the person living across the street from the house).

There have been two houses (in close proximity to my house) which have previously been foreclosed on. In both cases, the mortgage holder had sent out cleaning crews which have chopped down trees like these.

So... if they're going to cut it down anyway, I'll dig out the tree. If not, the tree is in need of pruning, and I'll take cuttings. If I wait, the tree may not be there later. In the mean time, I haven't been able to find who is in possession of the house. I am guessing, once I do, finding anyone at a bank to talk to about this issue will be difficult, at best.

Any suggestions?

~james

bjs has a real dilemma here. I think we live in different worlds, but did you read the foreclosure notice in the news paper? That will tell you who the mortgage holder is, then contact their office. Alternatively, go to the county clerk and look up your neighbor's property in the property records and see who the mortgage holder is, then you can contact them.

This takes quite a bit of time. You might just watch the place and when the cleaning crew arrives and starts hacking on the tree, ask them for a couple branches, or gather them up from the dumpster when they are done, or wait until the foreclosure is completed and the place gets a for sale sign hung up and contact whoever is selling the property.

P.S. No, I'm not the type that reads the legal notices for lack of anything better to do. They are just part of the paper and have some of the more interesting community affairs and help confirm the true parts of the local gossip.

BJ,

Get online and keyword for your County Assessor's web page. Here in Pott. County IA, our Assessor has a great page that lists every property in the county, gives the owner's name and address (mailing address if it's different). Altho there may be lag in the update of the page when owners change hands, if it's a repo they may have already had the mortgage company listed as the owner. Worth a shot, then just give em a call. They don't care, and probably aren't going to say no. I wouldn't just go dig up the whole tree tho without asking first.

Good Luck,
d a
v e

Ya, you shouldn't oughta do it.

A similar situation can exist in wild plants. Although in Montana it's often possible to extract a few corms or such without doing any harm it takes conscientious sensitivity to make sure you're not getting carried away.

Some wild plants are endangered. I've seen Cypripedium Montanum (Ladyslipper) transplanted when the plant was about to be plowed due to a road project, and I was happy enough to look the other way. But the transplant eventually failed, and lo and behold, after the road project was done there was a new plant growing there several years later! What was justified as a "rescue" actually did no good at all- actually more like a kidnapping.

Just thoughts.

M

M

I always ask first; I've never gotten a no so far. If there was a long-neglected big 'ol tree producing great fruit with no owner to be found I admit I would be mighty tempted.

Scott

Yes, it is unethical aka wrong, whether you are taking a cutting from a neighbor, public garden, or farmer, or a plant that "hasn't been pruned yet," and most definitely from a nursery. "Plants for sale" means you can buy the whole darn thing and then take cuttings!
I have often been asked for a cutting, and never said no, and have been given permission to take cuttings. ASK! You will meet nice people and have a clear conscience.

I drove by the house yesterday and saw some workers at the house. I spoke to the foreman about taking down the tree. He said he would speak with the owner and get back to me. I got the call this evening to start taking it down tomorrow.

When I looked at the tree from inside the backyard, it is much bigger than it looks from the other side of the fence.
{{gwi:53495}}

The cost to me for all of this is to pot up a part of the tree for the foreman.

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.
~james

I would agree with the always ask policy with neighbors, farmers, and commercial nurseries.
However, certain public gardens, supported by taxes and garden club volunteers who want to share plants are okay to take from, if the cultivar is not patented, and if it helps the plant by pruning or helps the display. A local herb society maintained herb plants overgrown in a public garden, just for that reason. There were rose societies that did the same, to preserve heirloom cultivars and share them with people who would appreciate them, keeping these cultivars in circulation. If you asked the park management if you could have a cutting, they would say no- it was against official policy, to prevent over harvesting and keep kids from breaking the plants irresponsibly. The unofficial policy was to look the other way, if the plant collectors looked like they were collecting just a few select cuttings responsibly. Plant club members did it all the time.

A friend of mine gathered a few herb cuttings from one of these parks to root once, and was wrapping them in wet paper in the bathroom when the security guard came in. Uh-oh! But the security guard laughed and said they were mostly concerned about protecting the animals at the park, which ate more plants than the prudent collector would ever gather.

Hmmm,

I had to think about this one for awhile. And I will play devil's advocate, for a bit. I have never felt guilty about removing a ripe seed pod or two from a planting, when I could reach it from the sidewalk (and no, not leaning way over.) I guess the difference to me is that taking a cutting is wounding the parent plant. I have taken cuttings from groundcovers, when the groundcover was spreading onto the sidewalk. This is usually in a commercial setting. But as I learned last year in a neighborhood dispute, the sidewalk needs to be kept clear of vegetation from edge to edge, by city ordinance, so the plant is trespassing anyway. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I think it is safe to say that this material will be pruned and discarded in a commercial setting. Paid groundskeepers are not being paid to propagate plants.

There was one time that I was sorely tempted to steal an entire plant. A Burger King had become vacant, and boarded up, and there was a Japanese maple in one of the planting beds. The building stood vacant for a long time, and I always planned to contact the owner, but by the time I would get home (at least an hour later) I would forget. Besides, the property was up for sale. Eventually, the tree was gone, but by that time, I was no longer in the neighborhood routinely. I hope the tree found a good home, and did not just die.

I think it is sometimes a gray area. In some cases, there is a good reason to believe that the owner does not even know or care about the existence of the plant. In my area, there are old abandoned fruit trees along the roadside in some areas. And Himalayan blackberries are a terrible weed.
Is it wrong to take these? (In my mind, taking an apple is the same or WORSE than taking a cutting, because an ignorant person can damage the fruiting spur, and affect subsequent fruiting.) And is it wrong to take a cutting, if the fruit tree has superior fruit? There is always the remote possibility that the tree is an older variety that has been lost, and might now be rediscovered.

Also, I have been tempted at times to bring pruning shears along on my bicycle rides in self defense. Sometimes there are weeds along the side of the bicycle path. I am not sure who owns the land, I believe that it is public. If these blackberries are blocking a public right of way, then isn't my pruning a public service? So far, I have been too lazy to do anything about this, so it hasn't been an issue. And contacting the authorities may be futile. A few years ago, I wanted to complain because my bike ath was closed down for the entire summer for a public works project. However the shoulder on the other side of the road was hazardous because of heavy machinery parked in the shoulder. Noone knew which government agency was doing the work. Granted, I only made a few phone calls before giving up.

But in my neighborhood, I usually note the yards that I like, and use it as a good reason to take a walk past, and hope to find the gardener tending their plants. I find this a good incentive to get out of the house, and get the exercise that I need.

However, the vast majority of my 'free' plants come from the various gardening club meetings that I attend. Many gardeners with mature plantings have plants that need dividing, and will bring in their excess. Sometimes, these are sold at low cost. I have much more sucess with plants that have survived in local gardens, than with plants that have been force-fed in containers all of their lives.