New to this forum. Enjoying all the new stuff I'm learning. Feeding Bambis alfalfa will get verrry expensive. I have both cows and horses and can't tell any difference in how hot it is or which one has more weeds, although my grandfather always swore horse manure was too hot. You can use green manure, but don't pile it up thick on anything or it will burn (it starts cooking). You can mix green in with your native soil, and it will be fine. I planted larkspur and delphenium directly into green manure and they were gorgeous and healthy. I used to plant my annuals with a scoop of composted manure and got many, many weeds immediately around the plant. I blamed the manure and started planting them with a spoonful of Osmacote. I still have lots of weeds. I realize now it was the combination of turning over the weed seeds to sunlight when I planted along with the added nutrients. It doesn't matter whether it's manure or a commercial fetilizer. I'm going back to the manure as it's free. My conclusion: Weed seeds are everywhere and when you turn them over to the sunlight and give them a boost with manure or commercial fertilizers, they go nuts.

Many garden centers sell inexpensive pH test kits. They're fun, and simplify all that pH stuff. Your manure and organic matter (and the life forms they support) will nudge it toward neutral over time, and it can be interesting to watch. Fall is the best time for serious liming. Permanent pathways provide habitat for earthworms, ground beetles, etc, and give you some access regardless of the weather. For temporary access to some areas, you also can lay boards on the ground and stand on the boards. If you planned to use your wheat as a cover crop, you'll need to take it down 2-3 weeks before you need the space, or you can pull it up and let it dry into mulch, or compost it. In mild winter climates, actively growing wheat does not go down without a little bit of a fight. Back to the permanent pathways. You can sow them with legumes and well-behaved grasses, and mow them to make mulch for the beds or rows next to them. It's a cool system. Picture it -- next year, a ribbon of crimson clover laced with blue bachelor buttons leads you to your beautiful [fill in blank] and you feel so happy! Here is a link that might be useful: my website

I am pleased to announce that with the help of our soil and plant extension agents we have figured out the problem with horse manure in the garden. The problem was not Ph as I originally thought. It's true the horse owner did use PDZ in moderate amounts and that might have contributed to bringing the Ph up. But the real problem was that the manure he brought was not nearly as aged as I'd thought. Apparently even fairly fresh horse manure doesn't have much odor so I couldn't tell. The pelletized sawdust they use for bedding is the problem. It sequestered the nitrogen in the soil so plants were suffering from nitrogen deficiency. I'm very relived it wasn't a problem with herbicide or some other chemical. As time goes by, plants are recovering. I assume the sawdust is mostly broken down and the nitrogen in the soil is freed up. We also side dressed with Pro Boost that has 1/3 chilean nitrate in it so the plants got a major pick-me-up. Thanks all of you for your help!

joe.jr317, Well Joe, I know that "We all enjoy composting. . ." because we are all actively inputting into this composting forum. Seems the word you take issue with is "enjoying". Some people just enjoy reading about composting to ask questions, without intending to do anything about the answers they get, and some folks just enjoy learning from what they read to hopefully do something "someday", and some (those who can), enjoy attempting to put into practice what they learned - and then there are others just enjoy complaining about things that they don't think will work - without ever trying them, to find out. Their motivation to participate in this forum is really none of my business, nor is the extent to which they actually perform composting activity. If a person does compost, they are an 'expert' in the way THEY choose to do it, even it it's their first day. So the word "proper" as you define it, does not necessarily have the same meaning to someone else. It's a matter of context, and anytime you (or anybody else) makes a "general" statement, the statement should be taken in that context. Point is, nobody appointed you responsible to 'protect' folks on this forum from people who don't agree with you, regardless of what you think about their qualifications and experience levels to give advice. Yes, you're right - I'm an 'optomist' who believes in the inherent "good" of mankind - and quite apparently to me, you are a 'pessimist' (or at least a 'pragmatic'), who believes that mankind is inherently "bad" - based on what you wrote. I happen to like most people. We all act like 'jerks' at times (even you), so forgive, and get over it without expressing your frustrations publicly. I think assuming the best from folks - is a good way to be. I'd rather be like me, than be like you (based on what you wrote and the way you expressed it). Just my preference - and like my opinion, I'm welcome to it. Yours can be different - and that's OK too. I'm not 'faulting' you for not being like me - I'm just saying that it should be (to you) OK for me to be different than you without that 'bothering' you. Folks like me understand that "it takes all kinds", so you can be the way you are, and we should be allowed to take people at their word. We are all capable of asking questions and making judgements about whether to trust what somebody says...and hopefully every ADULT has learned to not simply accept "anybody's" word at face value without obtaining more information (about that person, their qualifications/experience, or about the subject) before they act on it. If they don't, they'll just have to learn "the hard way" like all the rest of us did in some things. At some point in your educational process (in any given subject), through the eyes of an 'expert' (in that subject), you didn't know 'shinola' either - although you probably thought you did. So it's OK for other folks on this forum to think that they do too. And they ARE - in the way that THEY compost. Contrary opinions can be expressed in nice ways - without 'jerking somebody's chain'. You talk about somebody being "...purposefully demeaning..."and then you (in my opinion) exhibit the same kind of behaviour that you're complaining about. I personally think (from what I've read that kimmsr [Kimm] has posted), he/she is knowledgable about the general subject of composting, and provides valid information to people about the way he/she composts - in which he/she IS the ONLY expert. It is apparent to me that he/she is not knowledgeable about the way I compost, and that's OK. Kimm should not be expected to present ideas, questions and information that is the same as I understand/accept. Different context. So different meanings ARE going to be derived. We DON'T all use the same dictionary, and sometimes we make up words. For example, every plant has only ONE scientific name - but most of them have been given a bunch of common names that 'stuck'. Using the common name is OK too, although doing so can cause confusion at first. Secondly, I don't "see" the same thing in Kimm's posts that you do. I see no justification for believing that Kimm has "social issues" - and question your qualifications to make such a demeaning statement, especially in a public forum. Not respectful. Now to express my disagreement with you about the "...sitting idly by..." issue. You should KNOW by now, that I have no problem expressing my personal opinions - so I won't take that comment personally - but then - that would mean that your comment refers to "everybody", and in that context, my question to you, is who made you "judge and jury" about what is, or is not "misinformation"? In my opinion, you need to simply take a deep breath and 'get a grip', sir. If you disagree with something somebody said, then provide the specific information you think is right - and why - just like everybody else on this forum should, and let people make up their own minds. Ask questions and give the person a chance to respond, without "ringing their bell". I present information on this forum that lots of folks may know very little about (such as compost microbe activity/cyles), so I need to be prepared to substantiate my advice when requested. Do YOU have a microscope - and know HOW to use it - and know WHAT to look for)? When I write about compost microbes, should I assume you do, and provide technical information? Or should I assume you don't, and not write jargon that you might not understand? If I assume you do, but you don't, at least you then have the words to research the information - instead of just expressing generalities and making unsupported statements. That's my reasoning for being so darned 'wordy' (guilty - I'm a writer), so in my opinion, it's really important to provide specific information on which other forum users can base their responding opinions and advice. I try to operate my composting operation on the "leading edge" of the industry, so I experiment a lot. I have to understand that some folks don't, 'cause they don't care. Not fun for them. And I have to make that OK and not get 'bent our of shape' when they express their opinions contrary to mine. SOME of the information I present (for everybody to make their own judgement) is a result of MY trial-and-error composting experience for 50+ years. Not written down, except in my notes. Should I not share my findings for someone else to try - because I haven't written a book yet? In this forum I write about composting with the Frame technique, and I'd be willing to bet that you don't know what that is, much less how to use it "properly" based on your own composting experience. So when I refer to using that technique 'properly', you can take issue - but you'd be better off to ask questions, instead of trying to instruct me in the proper use of the term as YOU define it. I build vertical-sided stand-alone (unsupported) multiple compost piles 4-5' wide, 5-7' long and up to 48" high (yes, the Frame is adjustable), every month, with ONE 8-piece, 16" high portable wood frame (a technique I learned long ago, from an old Florida fella who could not erect a compost bin in his back yard due to CC&R restrictions - and HE called it a Frame - which is why I call it that) - which produces quality (high-nutrient, high-microbe and high-humus) compost (I call it 'quality' because that's what the experts at the Soil Testing Laboratory call it based on their written analysis reports). And I'd also bet that you can't find the Frame technique in any book you can buy, even online (I haven't found one yet). Now tell me that I'm providing "misinformation" because you can't find somebody else who wrote about the Frame technique. Experience Is VALID (even if not explained very well). On the other hand, a request for proof or explanation of statements/advice is certainly valid. Regarding the Frame technique, I'll be happy to send you copies of my compost analysis reports (validated results) and post photos of the Frame in use (if somebody would tell me how to do that), as well as request letters be sent to you from the Texas AgriLife County Extension Agents who recognize me as a composting 'expert' and who sponsor the composting workshops that I teach for other Master Gardeners in three counties, about using the Frame technique (as well as several other 'bin' methods). You are as welcome as anybody else on this forum to point out what you consider 'bad advice' or 'bogus information'. My point (in the previous post) was that such can be done in a nice (respectful) manner, and you should provide the specific reasons why you think so. Giving a website address as a reference is OK, but it sometimes appears like a CYA move to justify your point of view, unless you state the specific reason(s) in the body of your message. Particularly if the person has to "wade through" a lot of web pages to locate your reference.