Your right about vermiculite it retains (IMO to much) moisture just as well if not better than peat. If me I'd skip the 1 part vermiculite for your second re-pot.

It sounds as you might be still over watering even at the modest amounts your watering at now. Hold back on watering, to me hold back watering means no watering for a while in timing of about a month and even longer not to water every second week or fewer days. Rule of thumb for Jade if in doubt when to water jades then don't as they can definitely go for longer times than I mentioned with out.
Sand comment a bit to fine maybe ?
Pine fines you can sift or even chop em to a smaller size if suggested by anouther

Diatomaceaus isn't what I would think of as $$$ but if it is to $$$ for you then I think you can use Chinchilla bathing sand as a DE sub which can be found at a pet supply store but I have no idea how $$$ that is.

I'm not a Jade pro by no means but things another reader might want/need to see as I think you said your growing in a basement room in a prior post. It's a hard task to simulate a "good outdoor air" indoors and harder for sub level lower rooms. Things to think over are, is the room to humid ? Forced hot air ? Or forced hot water heat ? Space heater ? Windows ? Entry doors or sliders ? Air is one thing as each heat & air will have a different humidity result for your indoor growing goals.
Just as a side note: Don't place any plant near a fireplace if in use

HI;

I am talking about diatomaceous earth that is close to the size of a dime, small pebbles. I was just told that the diatomaceous earth like this was expensive at a local garden center by a person that used it for a Bonsai I purchased. Perhaps they were only selling it in small bags or they were selling it for use as Bonsai soil at a premium price. The prices online for it were very high as you would expect, because again they were being soil as premium bonsai soils.

Are ideas where I might find a reasonable price on the large diatomaceous earth?

Were you talking about using the fine diatomaceous earth in the mix? I have that.

I'll skip the vermiculite.

I had though with straight turface it was fast enough that it would be difficult to over water, and that seems to hold true outside, but inside I am finding it is a whole different story.

In the basement I opened up a vent on my forced air furnace. I humidify on the furnace, so it isn't overly dry. I do not let the vent blow directly on the plants. I also now have a fan running blowing at the plants. The plants are a distance away from the window, and the basement is below grade, so there are no doors that are opening directly to the outside.

I run the circulating fan on the house furnace 24X7 and it moves a lot of air. I was hoping that would be putting enough fresh air down there that it would eliminate any problems with stale air.

Do you think I may actually need more fresh air for the basement plants than what I can get off my forced air furnace circulating air?

btw. It easily stays 70 down there, with the lights, helping to warm things up too.

Thanks

Jamie

Hi, Jamie... What do you mean by "fairly limited watering"? How are you checking the rootball area for the need to water?

Jades are not my area of expertise, but I treat most of my bulbs more like succulents, and they are happier for it... and I do want to mention that any plant summering outdoors will not be entirely happy with the move to indoor... adjustments will be unavoidable... unless that move is into a greenhouse, the light levels will change drastically, and watering habits need to change along with the move.

Since I don't trust water meters, I check for watering using one or more methods... I trust my sense of touch, and I feel as far down into the medium as I can for any sign of moisture... I'm familiar with the weight of my pots moist as opposed to dry, and when the pot weight feels light I know it needs water... a wooden skewer inserted into the medium with the tip around the rootball, and left in, can be used as a fairly accurate gauge, and when pulled out and pressed to my cheek any damp, cool feeling indicates the presence of moisture.

Roots uptake moisture in vapor form, so what may feel dry to our sense of touch might actually still contain enough moisture to keep the plant happy.

If it were me, I would eliminate any vermiculite or organic/compost type ingredients for use with succulents, and I'd stick with a mixture of fir bark, turface, granite chips, perlite... ingredients like that.

This is what I typically use, adjusting the amounts of each depending on the plant type, its location, and other factors... I sometimes use a tiny bit of vermiculite, but that is dependent upon the plant type and other variables. The turface is a new addition... I've had trouble locating it in the past.

Included in the photo are ReptiBark fir bark, granite chips, turface and perlite. The turface and perlite have not been screened as you can see from the particle sizes. I would need to screen them for use.
{{gwi:4845}}

In your photos, the bark looks like it needs some drastic screening to remove fines and the particles that are too large...

Indoor artificial lighting is a whole different animal... as I found out... and it may be playing a large role in how unhappy your plants are. You don't mention what kind of lighting you're using, but I suspect that it's probably a large piece of the puzzle. Unless it's one of those incredibly expensive units designed specifically for plants, it's probably not giving the proper amount of light needed. I'm not an expert in indoor lighting, but I know enough to say that summering outdoors under the sun is hell and gone from the light provided by most indoor setups. What looks like bright light to our eyes may not be nearly enough for plants.

In summary, I would look to the light source and watering habits as the main culprits.

I kind of skipped lightly through the thread and have a few observations. I'll just offer them as they occur to me, so they may be a little helter skelter.

My intent in combining the more expensive ingredients to make the gritty mix is to produce a soil that has a very long service life (w/o collapsing), and holds a good amount of water w/o holding perched water. You lose the properties that make the soil work well when you don't screen the ingredients and you introduce fine particulates like compost. I think we covered this in this thread, where I offered an alternate recipe to the one you suggested because it would be less water-retentive.

100% unscreened Turface holds a LOT of water, a good part of it in a PWT, which is decidedly bad. There is no magic mix. You probably can't improve on the goal of wanting good water retention w/o perched water; about the only thing you can do is play with the ingredients, but you need to understand the concept thoroughly first. I don't promote recipes, I'm selling a concept. I offer a few ways in the form of recipes that enable you to take advantage of the concept.

I'm not scolding you, but I am going to say that had you followed the gritty mix recipe, or at least the concept, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

If the mix you're using now is too water-retentive, and the plants are not well-established, you can repot into a faster soil or add a wick; or, if plants are well-established, add a wick or double pot until you CAN repot.

There was some talk here recently about DE from different sources. One poster posted pics showing DE from one source to be larger and more uniform in size than the other source. DE is more water-retentive than Turface, but you can work around that by varying the amount of grit in the mix. BTW - you show #1 and #3 quartzite in the picture, but #2 is best. I saw you mention it somewhere in one of the threads you replied to, so I assume it's available.

Take care.

Al

Hey, Jamie!

I think it's better to re-pot in a proper mix now than to risk losing such a giant Jade over the winter.

It'll only set your Jade back by a couple weeks, and this will really only mean a few lost lower leaves.

I just re-mixed a 'Hummel's Sunset' mix because it had too high a percentage of bark, and not enough Turface.

Jades are tough. Just don't over-water! Don't water when you re-pot at all - not for 1 - 2 weeks.


Josh

Great information everyone..So many good points and precious help..

May I just add that I have been seeing many on these forums lately promoting just the use of turface as a growing medium, and for many, it just does not work..Nothing can duplicate the recipe of bark, turface and grit...But there are ways you can get around it to make a better growing experience than bagged mixes..This is where I appreciate all this input..

Coming from Al especially, if he doesn't think something else is a good idea, I would certaily pay heed...If he suggests something similar, then I would follow it to the letter..

As for my Jades, even in the perfectly made gritty mix, I still only water once every other week, after the mix has dried out, and while outside, the rain besides takes care of them...I would rather under water than over water with these plants, since they can take prolonged dry spells very well..
My friend at work forgot to water hers in a 4inch plastic pot for 2 MONTHS.She realized it after she was told by me that totally wrinkled leaves is not their normal way of looking..After a water, it perked right up by the next day and is still doing fine, in the gritty mix..

Nothing will ever be as good as the sun....But there are lights that can promote better growing than if you had none at all..As for my succulents, as long as they are on a sunny window sill, even for a few hours, they perform well, as long as the mix dries out well..

The key for my my success next to my friends here and the mix, is the wooden dowels..I still mired my plants need for water..

Mike

I still what? lol

I still monitor my plants need for water by using the dowels..

I'm working on screening more soil, but will update tonight. I read everything. Thank You.

I think one thing that got me confused, I for some reason though that many of the fines would wash out of turface (with a generous watering) as long as you had an adequate drain hole with a screen on the bottom. I am not sure if I read something to this effect here or on the bonsai site. But something got me confused. I was thinking that I would be flushing out the fines and that I did not have a perched water table in the pot, but it sounds like I do. I have used a wick on some pots.

I've looked over my plants again and it is just the succulents that are having some trouble, and only the ones in small containers, the big jade is looking good and I will keep a close eye on it.

I'm making up the:

3 bark screened 1/4-1/8
4 perlite screened over insect screen
2 Turface screened over insect screen

Mix. I am currently screening these. The perlite is terribly dusty with this nasty fine dust. I'm screening it with a setup with a vacuum that catches all the dust from the perlite as I screen it.

I will update and post photo this evening.

Thank You
Jamie

Hi Jamie..

If you find yourself surrounded by the dust from the perlite or breathing it in, please wear a mask or sereen it outside where the air is calm or the wind will blow it away from you.

Be safe and by the way, your jade is big and beautiful...I think I remember you potting this up and the photos..Good to see you here with all these great people..

Mike

Hello;

I spent a long time very carefully screening the perlite, turface and bark per al's direction. I've made a batch in the ratio suggested:
3 bark screened 1/4-1/8
4 perlite screened over insect screen
2 Turface screened over insect screen
and used the screens suggested.

{{gwi:55156}}

So I have this all made and very well screened, the only thing I am a bit confused with, is do I need to add some lime to this mix?

In the future, is it possible to use #2 granite grit instead of perlite? Would it serve the same purpose? I have lots of perlite and can get it for a good price, but I have asthma, and even with a mask, screening the perlite gets the dust all over me and caused me problems.

Thanks,

Jamie

>What do you mean by "fairly limited watering"?
>How are you checking the rootball area for the need
>to water?

I normally just dig in a ways to check it or I have a chop stick in some things that I pull out and look at.

>Indoor artificial lighting is a whole different animal... >as I found out... and it may be playing a large role in >how unhappy your plants are. You don't mention what kind >of lighting you're using, but I suspect that it's probably >a large piece of the puzzle. Unless it's one of those >incredibly expensive units designed specifically for >plants, it's probably not giving the proper amount of >light needed.

I'm using 18 four foot long 32 watt florescent bulbs, based upon discussions in the growing under lights forum, my lighting setup should be more than adequate to keep the plants happy that I have growing under them.

>I think it's better to re-pot in a proper mix now than to >risk losing such a giant Jade over the winter.
>It'll only set your Jade back by a couple weeks, and this >will really only mean a few lost lower leaves.

I'm not really concerned about setting it back. It is a matter of being able to physically re-pot it. It took 3 of use the first time, and I considered us quite lucky to have managed the transplant with no significant damage to the Jade. It has grown some even since this time. It is putting on new growth.

As long as I water it sparingly, is there any reason that I should risk moving this huge plant again to put it in a faster soil?

I searched today at the store I thought I could get the DE at, but they did not have it, at least not at this time of year.

I hope I have responded to everyone here, Thank you all, and I apologize if I missed responding to any questions directed at me. I've been up since 5 and it's 11:30 here and I am pretty darn tired.

I hope to figure out if I need the lime in the mix, then I can finish mixing it in the morning and I have a number of small plants I am going to re-pot in this new mix.

I assume this new mix I just made will be fast enough for all my cactus / jade / hoya?

Thanks again,

Jamie

Jamie...No lime in the gritty mix...Use gypsum..

Hope you rested well

Mike

I concur with Al... the important piece of information to remember is the CONCEPT of the mixes we use... how and why they work. It's labor intensive, but screening the materials used to get rid of the fines/dust is very important. (I tried to shortcut, myself... it doesn't work!)

Watering technique plays a very important role, as well. More plants are killed by improper watering than by any other factor. It's important to water thoroughly when doing so... and to wait until such time as a plant requires watering. I prefer to err on the dry side, myself... in other words, if I'm not sure a plant is in need, I'll wait an extra day or two, instead of watering anyway.

A lot of plants are killed by watering in sips, watering too soon, or by sitting in a medium that remains too wet for too long a time after watering... having a medium that allows for proper watering is so helpful.

As for light... well, we all know that adequate sunlight is the best source, but during the winter months it's not always possible to provide it. I, myself, use several T12 fixtures with both cool and warm bulbs as supplemental lighting. They're not enough. Unless the plants are no more than an inch or two away from the bulbs, the lights aren't doing much good, at all. And the further a plant's leaves are from the bulbs, the less good they actually do. So, I may be helping my plants a little bit, but not nearly enough. They limp through winter under lights, and I get more than a little leaf loss and stretching.

Again, Jamie... I may be wrong, but I suspect light is part of the issue.

Goodmorning;

I do have the plants within several inches of the lights, some are touching the lights even. I have the light as close as I can get them, it is closer to some than others due to the height difference in the plants they are not all as close, but have I have the banks of light hanging at 3 different heights. I spent a bunch of time with the folks over in the growing under lights forum, and found out from them that T-8's produce about 30% more light for the same power because they are more efficient. Of course it is still no where near the sun, but from what I have been told on from the growing under lights folks, it should be more than adequate since it is so close to the plants.

Jamie

I have gypsum in pellets, can that be used or does it need to be ground up into a fine powder like the garden lime comes?

Thanks
Jamie

I found the recipe with granite / turface / pinebark so that answers my question about using #2 granite instead of perlite.

Thanks
Jamie

Thank You to Al & everyone else for the assistance. I've read so much new information in the past few months here and on the Bonsai forum that it is a bit overwhelming at times and some of the information blurs. I think that is where some of my confusion came from, as plain turface seem to produce extremely favorable results for outdoor Bonsai trees, which is what were dealing with most of the time on the bonsai forum.

I made the mistake of believing what worked very well for me outdoors would transfer to the indoor world as well. Even stuff that was happy in plain Turface outside (my small jades) is now very unhappy indoors in the same pot.

I have a bunch (over 10) Japanese Maples in just Turface, most of it I didn't screen or did so minimally. They are happy as can be, and Japanese Maples are know for not liking wet feet. But of course they are a strictly outdoor tree. You can start to see how this positive experience (with trees that are sensitive to being too wet) of planting in just Turface led me to think Turface was going to be great for any plant that was sensitive to being too wet.

Now, Thankfully, I am ready to start planting in the Turface gritty mix (I just have to figure out which plants needs to go into gritty mix).

Thanks again,

Jamie

For me, the decision is easy. Anything that might be in the same soil for more than a single growing season goes in the gritty mix. This includes all my woody plantings, cacti, succulents and houseplants. Plantings like mixed display plantings for the gardens and decks, annual plantings and veggies, go in the 5:1:1 mix.

If you want to increase/decrease water retention in the gritty mix, do it by varying the amount of Turface and grit, while keeping the organic fraction (screened bark) at no more than 1/3 of the o/a volume.

You might wish to push a wick into the drain holes of those plants you have in only Turface.

Al

I've got my small jade plants re-planted in the gritty mix. I looked closely at the turface they were in and it was pretty dry in the whole container. (I had not watered them that much).

The leaves on my little Jades were not firm, a bit squishy (I assumed this was due to them being too wet in the Turface). They are kept very close to my florescent lights.

They were in turface for a couple months, (and looked fine when they were outside, where they likely got watered more often) I may not have fertilized them frequently enough, could this have led to the problem with the soft leaves on the jades?

Could the leaves on jades get soft if I actually under watered them? I would have though even these small jades would hold their water for a long time.

All the small jades I have are now in the gritty turface / perlite / bark mix. I watered them after planting and put them back under the lights.

I got all of my Hoya that were displaying problems (dropping leaves) replanted into the gritty mix. I still have more plants to re-pot into the gritty mix. I have several things that I can see are not as happy as they should be, being planted in just turface.

Thanks Much;

Jamie

This is one of the unhappy jades - This one is quite unhappy (notice the leaf on the top right that is textured):
{{gwi:55157}}

This one isn't as bad, but has lost the shine to all it's leaves and is a bit soft:

{{gwi:55159}}

Have these actually been underwatered? Lack of nutrients?

Any ideas?

Thank You

Jamie

Jamie...

It is possible to under water....The good thing about Jades is that if you happen to under water to the point of wrinkled leaves, one or two good soakings is all it takes for the leaves to plump right back up...In fact, I think Josh waits till his feel less firm before he waters and he uses a gritty mix.

Have you checked for spider mites too? They have been know to attack one of mine in the past and can dehydrate a new leaf such as yours very quickly.
It concerns me because the other leaves seem to be just fine, even the yop left one which looks fairly new..Just a thought..

I would examine under the leaves carefully since you had them outside and wash each leaf off gently...Then I would not worry about them since they will be in the gritty mix which they love and will react too very well.

Here is an example..All mine are in the gritty mix/.

{{gwi:55161}}

{{gwi:55163}}

{{gwi:55165}}

Good luck

Mike

Wow, what a nice collection. I'll go look them over and see if I can find any mites on them. I've never found any mites on any of my plants before, so hopefully I don't have an infestation now.
Thank You
Jamie

Jamie,
I wait to water until the leaves soften on my Jades (most of my succulents, actually).

If your plants have been potted in this mix for several months, I'd say that they need moisture.
If you are positive that there is no root-rot, then feel free to water.

Houses are dry. When I first bring my plants indoors, I notice that the warmth and drouth
of the house really dries the mix out quickly. This is mostly during early Autumn when the
sun is still shining. As Winter progresses, and solar values diminish, the house doesn't
warm up as much during the day, and the mixes don't dry so quickly.

After working with mucky, Peat-ridden potting soils for years, we tend to under-water when
first using fast-draining mixes.


Josh

Lovely collection, Mike! Your photos are inspiring!

Josh is correct... I'd like to concur... house interiors tend to be very dry, especially during fall and winter. Take into consideration your heating and cooling sources, your climate, the season, and the location of your windows and how much sun enters.

My own indoor environment tends to be very dry all year... the air conditioning sucks the moisture right out of the air, and our heating unit does the same. The main area for my plants is an east facing window with lots of bright, morning sun.

I've tried hard to grow various orchid varieties, but the air is just too dry. Without spending money on a humidifier, which I can't afford, I'm relegated to growing what my environment will support. Orchids are not out of the question... I just have to stick with the types that don't mind a little dry air. Phals and Dens do well. Other types that require more humidity do not.

Cacti, succulents, and other plants that can tolerate drier air are what I stick with.

Spider mites love dry environments with dry air, so they're always something to keep your eyes open for. Usually, by the time you notice them, you have a fair infestation going on. When I'm watering, I take the opportunity to look for the fine webbing associated with these pests.

Even though my environment is rather dry, I'd never go back to the days of compacted, peaty soils. The gritty mixes are so much healthier for the roots of my plants, and healthy roots promote happy plants. I like having total control over the moisture amount and the fertilizing. It does take a bit of getting used to at first... but once you find a watering and feeding schedule... and I use that word loosely... it all comes together beautifully.