Trill, I've only ordered from 4winds once and didn't care for their plants..Sorry..They sure weren't large enough for a 17" container..
I have never heard of using Rose soil, (but it doesn't mean it's not acceptable) still if you're going to use a big container, you have to make sure the soil is well-draining.
You shouldn't be having these problems so soon. Is there a chance you can send back and get a refund..
Try www.acornspring.com They have beautiful trees, at reasonable prices.
You mention never watering them, right? Is the soil wet from rain?
Also, I disagree about adding peat w/the soil..I use All Purpose Soil, sand, Perlite and Peat.
I also disagree that leaves will change color because water hits leaves, even if sun pops up right after..That's absurd.
Is a Kalamansia the same as a Calamondin? I've never heard of the citrus you mention..
Citrus love a summer outdoors, so that isn't the problem. Sun rays are about even on cloudy days. Good luck, Toni

This year is my second batch of Four Winds trees and if it wasn't for this forum, I would be in the same boat as last year. I lost all of them last year. This year, I've never had trees that look so healthy, but it didn't start that way. Over the years I have learned my failures were absolutely attributed to the soil I was using. I haven't tried the popular CHC's yet (maybe next year). My trees are doing so well, I don't want to change anything.

This year, ALL of my trees from Four Winds are in a 50% sand and 50% cedar mix. The trees I purchased were two year old bare root as yours. They are in 12" white plastic pots on my patio. It took a while for them to get established, but they now all are bursting with flowers, even the Eureka Lemon that I though was a goner. I've also learned a moisture meter can be your best friend. I don't water until it reads between dry and moist. With the sand mixture, even heavy rains drain quickly. I don't think itÂs possible to over water this mix as we have had some real torrential downpours and it hasn't affected the trees. The old mix I was using would hold too much water. I cringed every time a storm would come along.

There are a lot of real talented people here. They have helped me, IÂm sure you will also benefit from their knowledge as well.

Trill, first of all welcome. The growing of containerized citrus is a great hobby that gives a lot of satisfaction. Citrus frequently gives new growers a grim challenge, but also gives a large reward to those who take the time to learn the requirements needed for proper care. I can tell you that the problems your trees are having is VERY COMMON to most all new growers. I killed four or five trees years ago as a beginner with my first container citrus trees. The very first tree I purchased was from Four Winds Growers. There are two corrections that I believe you need to make rather quickly. 1). The trees are in to large of a container for the size of trees that Four Winds ships. People think that they are doing the tree a favor by giving it a lot of room in a large container. But if the tree doesn't grow fast enough to use all of the space, trouble can and usually occurs. An oversized pot can become waterlogged very easily, and then the tree suffer from lack of air (yes, roots need to breathe too). 2). Your tree needs to be in a MUCH MUCH lighter and porus soil. The container should completely drain within one or two minutes. I don't use cedar, but it probably is OK. Cedar chips would be MUCH BETTER that cedar shavings. Make the chips at least 75% of the medium. I use 4 parts coconut husks chips (1/4") (CHC) and 1-1/2 parts peat moss. Lastly Four Winds Growers is a fine company. If you are not satisfied with the trees you received, do not hesitate to ask for a replacement. The Kaffir Lime should not have arrived wilted. The Kalamansi Lime is a good tree. However, I believe much of the problem with your trees not recovering is your potting medium. Millet

Hi all

Thanks very much for the welcome and advice. I was trying not to post another "my leaves are falling off and yellow post". I'm surprised by the opinion that the trees are in pots that are too large. The roots that came on my trees (I bought the 2 -3 year old trees, not the ones that come in 4 inch pots) were reached down about 3/4 the length of the pots I used. I also spread them out over a cone of soil (like you'd plant any tree) and they only have an inch or two from the sides of the pot.

I am concerned about the potting medium, I followed the instructions from 4 Winds, they suggest using a rose potting mix combined with cedar shavings. They really discourage using peat moss, I'm not really sure why (unless it is an ecologoical issue, which is why I try to avoid it myself). The rose potting mix I bought is from EB Stone, I chose it because it was composted fir and redwood based.

I'll see what other sorts of potting medium I can rustle up. When you say they should drain very quickly, are you using a moisture meter? I have been, and the bottom of my pot reads between moist and wet (7/8) since it got rained on. Now I try to pull them in under cover when it rains, which is another exercise in frustration here in the PacNW! The middle of the pot reads about 6, the top nearly dry. I'd love to know what numbers I'm actually shooting for in a potting mix.

Lastly, I still would really love indoor light recommmendations for the winter, unless you all just leave yours outside...

thanks
trillium

Trill:
All what we advice here are from our own experience which soil work best for us.
You can experement if you like or follow what works best from the others.
The main thing is that the soil must drain fast.
Just because it is a big outfit does not mean it was the best soil mix.
Lisa once said that she will never buy the most expensive soil mix put out by miracle grow because it retains water too much and she is better off with her mixture that her citrus or pome plants grew 7 feet in 3 months.
So you can mix your own the basic ingredients are sand perlite coconut husk peat moss. Or delete some if you want. Nothing is a bad soil. The main thing is the pH of your soil. Mentain it to 6.2-6.4 or close to it and your citrus will be happy and will give you lots of fruits in return.

Hi there

My soil is in that slightly acidic range, it's the first thing I checked when they didn't bounce back like I thought they would.

I understand the soil must drain fast, but I'd like some clarification about what exactly is meant by drain and fast. That is what I'm attempting to ascertain in my post above.

I'll try to ask more plainly. When someone says "drain", do they mean that right after watering the moisture meter reads as moist not wet (or does it read as dry?) and by "fast", do they mean what exactly? What is considered fast? That if they where to measure the moisture of the potting mix at 6 hrs, 12 hrs or 24 hrs after watering it should read dry?

thanks,
trillium

To tell you the truth, I threw away my moisture meter long time ago. They don't read exactly what they were made of. It seemed like they have a mind of their own. Sometimes it is still reading wet when the leaves are already wilting.
I just go by my gut feeling. When I see that the 2 inches of top soil is dry to the touch I water my plants 1/4 the dosage of fertilizer. And soak them good and wait for good amount coming out at the bottom.
"drain fast" means when you pour water to your soil, in a few seconds you will see the water coming out from the bottom of your pot and as Millet said above, the water should be drained within one to two minutes after you pour it to the pot. That means no standing water on top of the pot after 2 minutes.
But of course the soil will be wet as your moisture meter will indicate. It may last a couple ooof days to a week and still reading wet(maybe). That's why I threw mine away.
Just do it with your instinct what is right for you. You'll see that your citrus will adjust for you. If not it will tell and show you. Then you adjust to their liking.
That's why growing citrus is fun. When the two of you match- viola..... nice good fruit. And you eat that at your hearts content.

I agree, with Benny. I NEVER use a moisture meter, I think they cause a lot of trouble. I rather prefer to determine the water content of containers by two methods, 1). weight of the container and 2). The use of my finger. After you have had a tree for some time you get to know whats going on both above the soil line and below. Till, the reason people are recomending a smaller container is because you stated that you "soil" has remained wet for over 3 weeks. Except for the top inch or two of the "soil" in a container, which can lose moisture from evaporation to the air, the primary, and almost only way moisture is ever removed from the rest of the container is through root absorption by the tree. If your container is still wet after 3 weeks (if additional irrigation has not been given) then that demostrates that the size of the root ball to the size of the container is out of balance. Especially at this time of the year. I think your trying to hard to figure out the meaning of the word "draining" as it is related to a container medium. It means that the medium when irrigated can hold a substancial amount of water while not losing its ability to also hold a substantial amount of air. The over flow drains off quickly instead of remaining to waterlog the potting mix, as happens in highly dense mediums. The volume of air space in a container should never be below approximately 25% of the containers volume. I like 30 - 35 percent. For recomendations on lighting type the word "lighting" or something close into the search function in this forum. Millet

Myself I no longer use a moisture meter my reson was being in a dirt mix with a pot being 10" deep and the probe being 6" long. The reading is 6" yet the other 4" being wet 3" wetter 2" from the bottom being even more wetter

Yet going from a dirt mix to a rapaid draining mix was hard for me to comperhend, but in doing so I learned I could not overwater and when water was applied O2 was being drawn in to the root system

Myself I learn as I go as so many of us do, Dale

Trill, As far as lighting goes if you are going to bring your citrus inside in winter,put it next to a south facing window. If not possible go with a grow lux light bulb and a fixture.Mount it over head or set it up lenght wise in some corner of the room next to your citrus.But turn it off at night.Your citrus have to have down time also.I use grow lux with somethings myself in winter in my house.Being that both my greenhouses are stuffed to the MAX in winter.I grow my citrus in my greenhouses anyway,and never use any artificial lighting on them, they only get the natural light.And they do wonderful.For a fixture and a grow lux bulb the price would be around $25.00 to $30.00.***Suzanne

Thanks for all of the advice. Here in the pacific northwest, it's grey and cloudy all winter (and that's what happened this spring too), so they'll need a grow light when they come indoors. I was just wondering if there were any specific wavelengths that were best, and stuff like that. From my searches in this forum I didn't find that information, just general stuff about keeping the lights pretty close to the plant.

I've bought some 12" pots and I'll repot and see what happens. They've been a lot happier since the weather got sunnier, the kaffir lime is growing new bits out the sides, even though the top is still wilted. The kalamansi continues to drop leaves though, so Four Winds has agreed to replace it. I'm thinking maybe I just got a plant that was too stressed to struggle though one of the coldest and wettest springs in PacNW history.

best,
trillium

Trill...I also live in the PNW.I am in the state of Washington so I know of what the growing conditions are here.I am under the impression that you want to bring your citrus in during winter and early spring.And just winter-over inside? If this is correct all you need is a grow lux, unless you'd be willing to go and spend $500.00 to $1000.00 on HD lights, and for what reason? Unless you are filling in a grow room or lighting a greenhouse.A grow lux light will get you through the winter and gray cloudy days:)***Suzanne

I just moved my kaffir lime from southern MS to southern IL and have now brouht it inside. The leaves are turning yellow. It is about 5 feey tall. Should I prune it back? it is nder lights with hibiscus which are doing quite well
syndy