(anyone know the CEC of turface?)

29.8 me/100g (some sites put it as high as 33me/100g, not sure why the difference.

thanks! :-)

So then would it stand to reason that the Axis would be heavier when it's wet and also might hold too much water for some plants. I'm just thinking with Cactus and Succulents. Would it matter though since the plants wouldn't be "sitting" in water, only moisture. This might be good for my vegetables and herbs in the dead heat of summer. It gets so hot, I sometimes have to water small pots twice a day.

Where, by the way, do you get Axis?

Hey Tanya, I've got some Axis that I've been playing with to compare to Turface.

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Concerning the weight issue, Axis on it's own is MUCH lighter than Turface. Very big difference. However, I haven't done a side by side comparison when they're both fully saturated. Sorry I don't have any scale.

From my limited experience in handling it around the house and the garden, to me it seems as though it's still lighter than Turface when saturated. Though my experience there only includes moving around some pots and buckets full of the stuff after I've thoroughly washed it. Yes it seems lighter even when saturated but I'm not a good judge of weight.

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Dry: that's another story. Very noticeable difference.

So far I'm liking what I'm seeing with this product. I like light weight materials, not just due to the ease of use but also I believe the plants appreciate a substrate that is light and easy for root penetration and ramification. That's just a theory though...

I'm just a few hours north from you in southern OK. You may possibly have more success finding some Axis than I. But I doubt it. The only reason I have the two bags I've got, is b/c they were shipped to me for an evaluation. Last I spoke with Envirotech (about 1.5 months ago) the closest distributor and retailer was in Kansas. The man I spoke with offered to get me a quote on shipping and delivering a pallet to me, but I respectfully declined as there is no way in hades I could afford it or use all of it.

Their website is not updated regularly with their new distributors, so if you're interested in pursuing it their phone number is 503-631-8542 (listed on website). I spoke with a very nice man named David. If you do call him, do me the favor of not mentioning me. He's called me several times soliciting trying to talk me into that pallet but I think he's finally forgotten about me and I don't want to refresh his memory :) Thanks in advance.

The pics above show Axis when it's still a little damp (I just got through washing it). When it's dry, it becomes almost white. Prior to washing it the first time it's ghost white almost resembling perlite, though with a different shape. It's very dusty. But when damp, as you can see, it's very attractive. I enjoy all the different colors. Shown is after I had screened it. I screen through a 2mm mesh, keeping everything on top. What falls through, I then screen through a 1mm mesh and keep everything on top of that. The two different grades I use seperately for different purposes. I'm using the small stuff as a replacement for large sand that Al uses. Since I can't seem to find any large sand locally, the 1mm Turface and Axis do great. But I'm getting sidetracked...

There are various grades (sizes). I got the regular grade, which David said is best for horticultural purposes and I would agree as anything smaller than that would be too small. I don't recall if there's a grade larger than this; I don't think there is but it would be nice.

Anyway, I'm almost out of it.... But I found something that is exactly the same, cheaper, available nearly everywhere in the US, and seems to work just as well. If you're interested I'll post you the details later as I must get back to work.

I don't actually use either product. I use OilDri which I buy at Sam's Club in the automotive section for $4.88. It is roughly 2-3 mm in size and also very dusty when you first open the bag. I don't have to screen it persay. The particle size doesn't get smaller than 2 mm that I've seen. I put it in a mesh strainer and run it under water for about 10 minutes. I came across it two or three years ago when learning about Al's mix but wanting to use something other than perlite (I hate those floating white beads!)

At any rate, I ran several test on this product to make sure it wouldn't break down and turn into kitty litter mush. Several people on the C & S and Bonsai forums warned that it would just break down and that it couldn't possibly be high-fired clay. I don't know about high-fired, medium-fired or any of that. I do know that I put it in a glass full of water and sat it in my window sill. I aggitated it four times a day with a fork for about a minute each time. After a week of no change, I put it in a pot full of water and boiled it for about 20 minutes - no change. I ended up using it, but kept the stuff in the cup of water. There was about 3/4 cup in a 32 oz glass. I would occasionaly add water to it and it ended up sitting there for almost 3 months and there was absolutely no change. I tried to break it with many different things and this stuff just wouldn't break.

I have plants that have been in soil made with the OilDri (some with only OilDri) that have been there for almost three years and there is no change in the OilDri. It is heavy, but I don't care. Water runs through it freely, but each little piece holds moisture and lets it go as my plant needs it. The bag that I get for $4.88 is a 40 lb. bag. I don't think you can beat that. It seems smaller than the axis, but I love the stuff.

I've heard good things about OilDri. Seems to be almost exactly like Turface. From the results of your "break down test", it seems to be high fired. If it can take all that soaking, agitating, and resist breakage than it is probably high fired which is exactly what you want (though I'm sure you could get away with something that was fired at a lower temperature).

I mentioned a cheaper but effective alternative to Axis. If you're interested here's the details (I can't take credit for this as I was tipped off from a bonsai site which I'll link to below if you're interested).

It is NAPA Super Absorbent. Not exactly a flashy name, but a good product nonetheless.
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100% pure calcined diatomaceous earth. This is mined and manufactured by the same company that makes Axis for Envirotech. The company is EP minerals in NV. Mined from the same exact deposits.

NAPA carries a few different kinds of oil clean-up products. Some of the others are calcined clay like OilDri/Turface. But this one is pure calcined DE. Pay attention to the part number 8822 as that's the one you want.

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Good thing about this is that there is a NAPA store in nearly every city in the country. I live in a very small town down here in the south, but lucky enough there's a NAPA store!

It's very dusty and has a lot of fines. Definitely needs screening and a good wash. But it's identical in shape, color, and texture to Axis. I've been using it side-by-side with Axis for a comparison and thus far I've seen no difference at all.

$5 for a 25# bag. But remember that just like Turface, Axis, Perlite, and nearly every other mineral product you really shouldn't breath the dust.

Here is a link that might be useful: Where I first learned about it (note the change in labeling)

Be careful with the Oil-Dry, the product isn't consistent. Somewhere in this forum I posted a thread with a picture of Oil-Dry after being in water several hours. It became mud.
Found it.

I know others this has happened to as well. Also I know many find it doesn't become mud.

I suspect, but do not know, that some of their processing facilities are making it differently than others and maybe this is why some works out and others do not. If this is true then some folks *should* get a product that consistently does or does not become mud, but I don't know that for sure.

Anyway, just test it in water for several hours to see what happens.

Hmmm... Probably good advice for the NAPA Super Absorbent as well. They may have different facilities manufacturing it under different conditions as well.

Thankfully, what I've got my hands on is very good. But you just never know.

Hi,

If anyone wants Axis but you can't find it call eaglepitcher filtration & minerals dept, they are the ones who actually produce axis. Envirotech is only a distributor and there only in the PNW.

Call this number: 775-824-7600 . Tell them you want to buy axis regular and tell them what state you live in. They will tell you who distributes axis locally. I had to drive about two hours to get mine but they had plenty and it's about $15.00 per cu ft(25lbs).

HTH

P.S.
I agree with JAG2 in regards to OilDry and similar products...

I picked up axis regular the other day and after playing with it for a day i'm impressed with it. It absorbs water very well and is wicking water into dry peat.

I have used the oildri from three different bags and haven't had a problem. Maybe my Sam's Club just keeps getting it from the same place. Once can only hope. I had six mame bonsai growing in straight oildri and it never turned to mud.

Here's a link to studies done on calcined clay, DE, etc regarding its use in horticulture. I don't understand it but I'm sure someone here will, LOL!
http://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/handle/2097/720

Well, I made it through Chapter 1 of that doctoral thesis. I had to go to "Wikipedia" to find out what a "2:1 clay" was (search for "Montmorillonite", LOL). Some things I learned:

1. Terra Green (I've used the name Pro's Choice for this brand in previous posts) is made from a different clay than Turface (I used to think that they were made from the same type of clay). Even worse, different lots of Terra Green apparently use different clays from two different quarries (I knew about the two quarries, but I thought that the clays were virtually the same). Several other potential substitutes for Turface were also mentioned, that I did not know about, which I will now have to Google!

2. Turface (and various "equivalent" competitors) possess an Anion Exchange Capacity -- at least for phosphate. They are thus controlled release fertilizers for phosphate.

3. Because these products absorb phosphate, you will have to add an initial charge of phosphate, otherwise they will compete against the roots for phosphate.

4. I think that the initial charge of phosphate required will probably be about 1/10 to 1 gram phosphorous per liter of absorbent. (Since phosphorous is given as a phosphate salt, you will have to add the weight of 4 atoms of oxygen plus the weight of either 2 atoms of potassium or 2 molecules of ammonium to calculate the amount of fertilizer to add.) Once given this initial charge, the absorbent will then act as a controlled release fertilizer for phosphate. Any phosphate lost by rain or plant growth will have to be replaced, in order to maintain a controlled release reservoir.

5. Axis is a weak absorber of phosphate, hence not a good controlled release reservoir of phosphate. Turface is a stronger absorber, hence a better controlled release matrix. Some of the other products absorb phosphate more strongly -- perhaps too much of a good thing in those cases. Or perhaps I will have to read Chapters 2 and Chapters 3 to find out, LOL.

6. Although Axis is a weak absorber of phosphate, it reduces wash out of phosphate when pots are watered. (Yes.... I peaked ahead of Chapter 1, LOL.) I would guess that that the mechanism is as follows:
A. Phosphate diffuses into the water that is inside the pores within a grain of Axis, so that the concentration of phosphate outside Axis will equal the concentration of phosphate inside Axis.
B. Once pots are watered and drained, the concentration of phosphate outside Axis is lower than that inside Axis.
C. Watering pots is fast, and the pots drain fast.
D. Even though phosphate is not bound to the silica surface of Axis, it still takes a long time for it to diffuse out of the pores inside a grain of Axis, into the water that is outside of the grain of Axis.
E. The time required for phosphate to diffuse out of Axis, and reestablish equal concentrations in the water that is both inside and outside of Axis, is a much longer time than the time required to water and drain a pot. For example, it may take a few hours for phosphate to diffuse into (or out of) a grain of Axis, while watering and draining a pot takes just a few minutes.
F. I will have to read chapters 2 & 3 to see if this PhD comes up with the same hypothesis I did.

Hence, an initial charge of about 3/10 to 3 grams ammonium phosphate per liter or absorbent.

This is the amount required to maintain 1 mg of free phosphorous per liter of potting mix (or is it per liter of water which is part of a larger volume of potting mix, say 3 liters of mix including its combined solid, air and water volumes). Plants may need less than 1 mg of free phosphorous, in which case, a smaller initial charge would be required.

Reading the other post about the OilDri and wondering if it is mined differently between north and south or something. I noticed that both people who said it turned to mush are in zones 5 and 7. I am in 9. I've bought a bag each year now for three years. Mine is in the garage now and I've not checked it yet as I am teaching summer school and have no time right now. I know that the bags that I buy specifically say on the bag that it is used as a soil ammendment. I am wondering if there are different products bagged for different purposes but all sold as OilDri. Justaguy, did your bags say that it can be used as a soil ammendment, or did it just say "absorbs oil and other spills"? I know mine doesn't break down and sits in a humid garage all year long open to the elements. I would think that the humidity would cause the bottom to turn mushy too if it was going to break down. I'll count my blessings this year if I test this bag and it works. I may go and buy several more in case they change what they carry. I use it for my bonsai and cactus and succulents and most only get repotted every two or three years, but I am constantly, much to my husband's dismay, adding to my collection.

Zeckron, if you test the NAPA super absorb and it is okay, post your results. I think I'd like to try it. I don't know if I have time to read the 140 page disertation. I hope we get a bottom line from someone with more time (npthaskell?). It seems like as of right now, the basic idea is dia. earth is an excellent medium for growing but requires you add more phosphorous because it doesn't release it fast enough when the plant is watered.

Justaguy, did your bags say that it can be used as a soil ammendment

Yes, it did. It said it would improve water retention. I can't argue with that as it certainly would, but not in the way I would want :)

I also looked up the MSDS on it online and I forget the exact wordage, but it said it wouldn't dissolve in water, or at least that was how I read it so I was pretty disappointed.

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That's really weird as for two years, it has not even so much as softened for me. I guess I've been lucky.

That's really weird as for two years, it has not even so much as softened for me. I guess I've been lucky.

I have been tempted to call them and find out why one person's bag works out and another's does not, but in looking at their website they appear to have roughly one zillion facilities and products and different contact info for each. Don't really want to be transfered and on hold for days :)

Perhaps as recognition of the value of calcined clay products grows somebody will make a good product that is both readily affordable and available. Until then the hunt and trial and error continue. I like what I read about Axis, but nobody around here sells the stuff. Only one place sells Turface MVP and my supplier of bark fines just dried up.

Oh well, what can you do?

Maybe try the NAPA Super Absorbent. At $4 or so a bag, trial and error might be beneficial. One would assume that if the top of the bag works the rest will too. Zeckron seems to have had success with it and he, like I, found out about our products on bonsai sites. There must be half the people out there finding these products kill their plants and the other half are happy. Good luck.

Tanya,

I too live in zone 9 and before I was able to find turface, I used oil dry from Walmart. Looks exactly like JAG's pic above. To this day I have my Desert Rose mixed with Al's mix, oil dry, fine bark fines,granite and a little peat based cactus soil. It's been in that mix for over a year. I have had no problems what so ever. I have a small pot that I filled with oil dry for over a year also and its been outside the whole time and it has not degraded. Yours and mine must have come from the same Plant(distribution center). I originally had the hardest time finding turface and read on line of people using oil dry instead. I wanted to try Al's mix and that was all that was available to me at the time. Now that I have been able to find turface I haven't bought any more oil dry, but if I ever run out and can't find turface again, I would use oil dry if that is all I can get. Of course I will test it first as a precaution. I guess we've both been lucky!!

Here is the plant, I took this picture last month when it was in full bloom.

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Tanyag writes,

> [Axis]... requires you add more phosphorous because it
> doesn't release it fast enough when the plant is watered.

My scenario, as posted above, assumes that you water your pots for a few minutes (or even faster) every few days (and I further assume that was what the PhD Dissertation deals with, as I have not yet read chapters 2 & 3).

Under these conditions, there is a great mystery - why doesn't phosphate wash out of those pots that contain Axis (because Axis is a weak absorber of phosphate)?

I suggested that diffusion of phosphate from within Axis, to the rest of the potting mix (including roots!), was SLOW. I use the term SLOW relative to watering and DRAINAGE being FAST. I consider FAST to mean MINUTES. SLOW is HOURS. Watering is every few DAYS, which would be SUPER SLOW, as compared to merely SLOW.

If you water every few days, a "slow" diffusion of phosphate over a time period of a few hours is "NOT TOO SLOW", as far as roots are concerned. Under these conditions, Axis would not require any more phosphate fertilizer than its alternatives.

It is all a matter of Einstein's Relativity Theory in regards to Time, LOL.

If you have outdoor pots in a climate with continuous rain (Pacific NorthWest), I doubt that Axis could retard any wash out of phosphate, and you would have to fertilize with phosphate more often.