Somewhere around 20 years ago, I was at a business meeting in Chicago. I had arrived Thu night for Fri-Sat meetings and was bored, so wandered around the hotel. I soon discovered that there was also a bonsai convention being set up, which was to begin on Fri. I was amazed at the beauty of the little trees, so asked if I could observe. Permission was granted with the proviso I stay out of the way. I decided that day that I had to learn how to grow those wonderful little trees. I came home and soon stumbled on an adult education flier that offered a 1 day bonsai workshop. I paid my fee & soon had a little garden juniper, perfectly ripe for the killing. I stumbled around in total darkness for that entire summer before realizing I knew nothing about soils or keeping plants alive in containers, but that knowledge was prerequisite, so I set the plants aside and hit the books. I studied bonsai techniques and the art itself, but mostly I concentrated on physiology and soil science. After 4-5 years of what I think was pretty diligent studying, I had learned enough about plants and soils that, to my great happiness, I was able to keep plants alive and healthy in containers. I was using 'bonsai' soil that was commercially made, and little better than other heavy 'from-the-bag' soils that were available. About the only thing that set it apart was it's gritty mineral components. I discovered and joined a local club, and primarily through my bonsai magazines, gradually became exposed to a wide variety of potential soil ingredients. As I continued to study and gain a better understanding of how soils work and how various combinations of ingredients affected the end product, I started experimenting with various combinations of ingredients. I learned early on that soils intended to hold plant material for extended periods needed to be very durable. I was still operating under the illusion that container soils had to be nearly all organic or they wouldn't work. I soon discovered that was nowhere near true. It was a combination of trial and error, reading what others were doing, and experimenting, using what I had learned about soil science that helped me up with the idea of combining an ingredient that was large enough that it held very little perched water but still held plenty of water in internal pores (screened Turface) with an ingredient on the opposite end of the spectrum - granite, which holds no water internally - only on its surface. The bark, though it offers some nutrition as it slowly breaks down was an excellent compliment to the other two ingredients because it offered a filler that held about the same volume of water as the average between the Turface and granite, and because it was plentiful and cheap; plus, it fit the durability requirement better than any other commonly found organic component, as long as I limited the organic fraction (bark) to 1/3 of the whole or less. Each of the ingredients in the gritty mix is actually carefully chosen. Particle size, the ability to hold/not hold water, expense, availability (for me) were all carefully considered as I settled on the ingredients and ratio. I've been using the gritty mix for about 15 years, and haven't found a way to improve it yet. With the number of people I stay in contact with in the bonsai community, it's easy to imagine there were a lot of materials that could have been substituted for one of the 3 primary ingredients or added to the trio. Many were tried, then discounted, and I still prefer the equal parts of fir bark:Turface:grit to anything else. I guess to answer your question directly, about how long it took me to come up with the gritty mix, I'd say it was about 5 years before it came together, but I was still learning a lot in the first 4 years. As far as the gritty mix being perfect, it may not be, for everyone; but the nice thing about it is it's flexible/adjustable for different locales and plant material by simply changing the ratio of Turface:grit slightly. The same is basically true of the 5:1:1 mix - it's flexible. My interest in bonsai also sparked a keen interest in growing a wide variety of other plant material in containers. Since I recognized the difficulty presented by the high level of water retention in almost all from-the-bag soils, and I had already witnessed the superb results from the highly aerated gritty mix, not to mention the fact that the gritty mix is more expensive than bagged soils, it wasn't long before I was tinkering with pine bark, peat, and perlite. I saw that nurseries were growing woody material in mixes with pine bark, so I should be able to grow my veggies and pretty/flowery stuff in some sort of concoction with pine bark as the primary ingredient. Having already settled on the gritty mix, I knew just what I wanted to achieve with the 5:1:1 mix, so that was easy. A few years after I started using the 5:1:1 mix, I started sharing how well it works here. You might not believe me when I tell you that JaG was one of the loudest dissenters, and couldn't imagine how soils with that much air could possibly be better than from-the-bag soils. He'll tell you that himself, and mentions it frequently. (I miss his being around). It took a couple of years of often very strong debate before he tried it and saw there really was a stark difference in results between a highly aerated soils vs those heavier and water retentive. Now he's a strong proponent of highly aerated soils. I was actually afraid to tell the forum about the gritty mix, because it was such a radical departure from what everyone on this forum was used to growing in that not one person would ever have believed you could grow in a soil that was 2/3 gravel and 1/3 large bark chunks. Honestly - I had to wait until I had earned enough credibility before I could even tell you that I grow lots of perfectly healthy plants in the stuff. It's much easier to open minds when there is more than a singular voice crying in the wilderness. ;o) Let's see ...... what drew me here? I think it was originally because I was doing a LOT of searching for info on the internet and GW kept coming up. After a few hundred GW hits, I guess I started to explore and ended up joining. The bonsai forum wasn't much fun because there was (still is) constant fighting, so I ended up here. I had also joined several clubs, and had often been invited to talk about different aspects of gardening. I talk most often about soils and things related to container gardening, but I also do presentations about pruning and hormones, propagation, repotting ..... I do bonsai demos and lead various workshops, too. I look at all of that as a natural extension of my love for growing/nurturing plants, so I guess it's not so unusual that you have to put up with me here. Whew! That took a lot longer than I thought it would. It was a really, really hectic weekend, so it's time for bed. Thanks for your interest, Mike - if you're still awake. ;-) TTYL Al

JAG, can you elaborate on the idea that pH is not as important for blueberries in pots as in the ground? Al, do you concur? Yes - I do. Mineral soils in general hold nutrients much more tightly than the highly organic soils we grow in. If you'll consider: Even the gritty mix I often use is still highly organic at 2/3 inert ingredients: 1/3 (33%) bark as compared to the sandy soils the BBs are usually grown in with an extremely low organic component (usually Fertilizers affect media solution pH and make it easier/more difficult for certain types of plants to extract nutrients from soil solutions. Often, the plants themselves add ions to the solutions to actually change solution pH and make it easier for the plant to take up ions. The fertilizers we would want to use for blueberries will have an acidifying effect due to the ammonium nitrogen content. Fertilizers that form acids will be high in ammonium, ammonia, and urea. During nitrification, ammonium is converted to nitrate in the media, and in the process H is released which lowers pH. Plants also secrete H into the media whenever they absorb ammonium. Fertilizers containing nitrate in the form of calcium/potassium/magnesium/sodium nitrate all tend to cause an alkaline reaction and raise container solution pH. Although the most important factor in where media solution pH will fall is the alkalinity of the irrigation (which includes the fertilizers added) solution, it's not the only factor. We need to not only consider the fertilizer, but also the pH of the medium components, the liming materials used in the medium, and the pH/alkalinity of the irrigation water before adding fertilizers. Finally, the gritty mix should be fine for BBs if you use gypsum as a Ca source. You'll need to water fairly frequently if you use it, though. Turface and granite are both mildly acidic, and the bark will be around pH 4.5-5.0. Al

Sure I remember you. You visited the 'Water Movement/Container Soil thread & posted a soil recipe with around 18 ingredients in it. I think I pointed out some likely problems with growing in a mix like you suggested. Soon after that, you posted the mix again on another thread, and I believe that JaG took even more time than I to scrutinize your offerings and offer additional comments that pretty much paralleled mine. You also volunteered the information that several of the nurseries in your area suggested that your soil would likely end in disaster. No one is here to tell an admitted 'old school kind of guy' that he can't or shouldn't grow in any particular fashion or that his soil won't work. In fact, if you're happy with how things are going, so am I, and I would venture the rest of the forum, too. Since you have questions for me, I'll offer opinions. If you are having good results with the soil recipe you posted, I think it's more likely that success is in spite of, rather than because of the soil. My interest really is not in getting you to change anything, or getting you to see things 'my way'. My interest is in supplying information, supported by both science and experience, that illustrates to others that might consider adopting a soil like you referred to, that there is a high likelihood that for a very high % of growers the soil comes with inherent problems built into it; and they should look for something simpler and easier to grow in until they are able to decide on their own what is best for them. I'm going to point out that your own previous words seem to bind you to a certain degree of fairness that really isn't proffered in this post. This: "I do keep the pots buried between 8" and 12" in the soil, this was for heat protection. The worms were free to travel into and out of through the drainage holes. The ground the plants were on and in, used to be a huge elm tree that is full of decomposed roots. You can't hardly walk around it without sinking into the ground." clearly illustrates that even though the plants are in containers, because they are in the ground they are technically in raised beds and are far closer to being a part of gardening in the earth than they are to container culture. Apples and oranges. You asked about comments and pointers. I've offered comments, and I'll refrain from any pointers or suggestions except to say that growing is about achieving desired results/goals, and/or about enjoyment. If you're happy with how things are going for you, and your success is keeping you smiling, then by all means stay the course; but at least allow that in the face of so many suggesting there may be better alternatives, there may be. Take good care - good luck. Al

Did you not like my reply? Vermicompost is great stuff, but as you know, the instant it gets wet it has the consistency of clay muck. This isn't going to do container drainage any favors. If you wish to use it then simply keep it at 10% or less of the mix and it shouldn't cause any drainage problems. Somebody, I think it was Mary Applehoff (of Worms Eat My Garbage fame) who tested VC in containers and found that after 10 (maybe it was 15) percent of container volume results diminished. The simple answer is don't use much of it as it will clog drainage. Feel free to wait for Al's ban to be removed so he can say the same thing. Science is science.