I really can't say as I wouldn't use either as the primary source of nutrients in a container :-)

If the Dr Earth has some chelated nutrients that's a good thing in terms of ease of availability, but the lower N isn't so hot for citrus or blueberries.

Are you sure you can't just do a little Miracle Grow every now and then along with the organic program? Not trying to talk you out of your chosen methods, just saying it would make life a lot easier on you and probably your plants.

Or, how about a little experiment where one plant gets the organic fert only and another gets MG only?

Oh, JaG, awww man, seriously? I got the idea for Neptun from you and thought I had cracked the code, dude. ;-)

Don't worry about trying to talk me out of anything, I admire your persistence (grin). And seriously, I appreciate the time you take to reply and I've seen you provide really great information about this topic, so I may end up with a MG-ish product eventually but I can't bring myself to use their products right now.

I think I saw somewhere you were (or still do use) osmocote, right? Or do you use the hated green miracle stuff.

I have used and will continue to use the Neptune Harvest product for at least until my last gallon is gone.

I have used it in containers and it did perform up to my expectations, BUT I didn't expect it to supply the majors, just the minors.

For best growth I blended it with Miracle Grow.

This year I am looking forward to using Foliage Pro and Pro TeKt. I am not sure I really have any use (in containers) for the organics any longer. I am sure my Sq Ft beds and other ground based plantings will continue to love it though. Curious if your main objection to MG is the product or the company behind it? If it's the company, go with DynaGro instead.

I do use Osmocote, yes (Controlled release fertilizer, brand isn't important to me). I am using it less and less as I don't really have difficulty fertilizing every week or two or three. The primary value of CRF is when one tends to be forgetful about fertilizing. The presence of the CRF helps avoid the feast/famine cycle. Not really necessary if one is good at keeping track of what was fertilized when or if one has the time to look at plants daily to spot the first signs of a deficiency and correct it right away. They are more of an insurance policy than anything else.

Many ways to skin a cat, as the gross saying goes ;-) As long as the plants are getting their nutrient needs met it's all fine.

Hey JaG... I'm not sure I can really articulate (in a logical way) why I'm so opposed to MG. It's just a knee jerk reaction to a big petro-chemical company and fearing that I'd be putting something chemical on my plants that would ultimately end up IN or ON the food I serve to my 2 little girls. I'm just uber-crunchy like that... LOL. The nutrients themselves, of course, I'm not worried about. It's the proprietary mix, the vehicle itself, the liquid, that I fear. Besides, that color does NOT occur in nature. LOL

And the company that markets MG is so connected with big agri business, genetically modified seeds, bullying farmers about seed patents, they manufacture a ton of nasty pesticides, etc. that I prefer not to support their business.

I checked out the DynaGro website... looks compelling. I noticed they don't mention growing food crops on their site, but I gather its because they focus more on the hobbyist or indoor plant gardener. Saw lots of testimonial comments about orchids and cacti. But it's worth considering. I like the explanation they offer about plant nutrition, and I like that they're complete so it seems idiot-simple. I guess the fact that it's not labeled "organic" is just a hard one for me to swallow.

How do you water with the DynaGrow. Do you make a really dilute mix every time you water your containers?

Nice conversation... and very informative.

-k

Besides, that color does NOT occur in nature. LOL

That's funny. I don't use perlite because it is white and unnatural looking to me. I thought I was the only wierdo who is off put by color ;-) I checked out the DynaGro website... looks compelling. I noticed they don't mention growing food crops on their site,

They made a name for themselves in the hydroponics industry and certainly much food is grown in hydro. I really know nothing about the company itself. I do understand the reasons for not liking the corporations behind products like MG or RoundUp and that's a personal choice I sure won't judge you for. Sometimes ignorance is bliss. Saves us from these ethical dilemmas ;-) I don't know that I have used actual Miracle Grow in years, I generally get the Sam's club brand, but then I guess I am supporting Wal-Mart and for all I know Wal-Mart gets it from Scott's so it's a double whammy. Can't win :-) How do you water with the DynaGrow. Do you make a really dilute mix every time you water your containers

It's really up to you. You certainly can do that, but I am a bit too lazy. Every week or two at regular strength is more typical.

Hi kristi,,
I for years never believed in anything but Organic fertilizer. In fact, scared to death to use non-organic fertilizers until I met Al. The funny thing is, that, I expected all my plants, especially Citrus, to look awsome with organic fertilizing, and yet they always looked less than healthy... In fact after months of feeding organically and no long term results, I brought my less than desireable plants to the local nursery, and they told me they were starving for nutrition!! They were responding at first, especially to Neptunes Harvest, but then would decline over time. How? I was feeding fish emulsions at every watering. They told me to mix it with MG.or Miracid...NOT ME!!! No way!!NO thanks!!
I tried every concoction after that. I even used Avacado and Citrus food powder. Tons of labor and time, and still my plants declined. A never ending battle.
But then this fall after struggling with anthing but nice green leaves, yellowing leaves, slow growth, dropping leaves, and dying plants,even insects, which thrive on weak plants, I realized something!! I wondered why everytime I went to this nursery to get my plants, especially Citrus, they always looked GREEN and VIBRANT. Even the 60 year old Lemon Pondorosa they have growing in the ground there was gourgous. I would recieve plants in mail order, and those plants looked so vibrant!!
It never occured to me to ask what they use for fertilizer!! I remembered that I asked them 2 years ago for a good fertilizer, and they said Dyno-gro only. I was like right!! No thanks. I never believed them. I kept right on using organic fertilizers until last year, when all my trees declined by summers end again. That is when I decided to search the internet and found this site. I read, and saw people saying how sucessful they were with non organic fertilzers.
I never used MG, I even believed MG made their product for the sole purpose of eventually killing my plants,lol. I never trusted in, or ever thought I would use chemical fertilizers, until Al sent me a mix of MG with added nutrients he sent me to try. I fiqured, what the heck, I will try it on a couple of plants and see what happens.. What a remarkable change in vitality and color, and so fast!! I finally had plants that looked the way I wanted. I even orderd Foliage Pro from dyno-gro and I have been using this stuff for a couple of weeks now. WOW, my plants look awsome. I havn't used Neptunes Harvest for the last few months, and yet my plants are so happy still. Between this nutrient program, and great soil now, I love my hobbie.
Kristi,
I have no kids, and I do not eat the fruit. I just sit back and enjoy the fragrant flowers. That is my purpose in Citrus trees. Maybe I would still be stubborn in using anything but organics if I had kids and ate the fruit, but I know that for the plants sake, in containerized pots, they are smiling left and right now:-)
I just went to Logees this past weekend and after 2 years, I again asked them...What do you use for fertilizer? To test them. And agian they said they use only Dyno-gro. I expected a different answer.I told the owner I was finally going to use Dyno-gro after all this time, with no hesitations, and he said..BRAVO..lol
After all these years and sickly looking plants and tons of organics,, I am a firm beleiver that plants react better to non organic fertilizers with me, unless I know how to use them in pots, and the science behind it.
I am not against orangically fertilizing, but I think that unless one knows the science about how it works from the soil up to the top of ones plants, it is almost impossible to be sucessful at it. I feel that plants can not entirely depend on this type of fertilizer, "organic", for all their nutrients, unless ones understands the way soil works along with all the bacteria in containerized pots. Maybe ones learn from trial and error, and lots of lost plants, but I am not willing to continue my quest anymore, nor spend tons of money. I havn't lost a plant to malnutrition in pots in weeks now;-)
Unfortunatly, I failed in the organic department,so I use both now.
With help from all the nicest people on this site, and tons of convincing, I am no longer afraid to use non-organic fertlizer in conjunction with organic, and I am having much more sucess with great looking and vibrant Citrus trees.:-)
Organics is best left for the outside gardening for me. I would do orgainic if I could grow my Citrus in the ground. Maybe someday if I should move south..:-)
Hope my experience enlightened you:-)
Sorry so long, but I was bored..lOl

Wow meyermike,
You were so kind to share with your experience with kristie. In fact, your experiences really helps alot of us including me. I have greatly benefited from your time to answer our fellow members questions. Thankyou.
Justaguy, you are a very smart person and very much appreciated...
sissy

Interesting thread. As some of you may have read, I used to use MG and switched to organics. I have been happy with the results, but... maybe that's just me. It's important to realize that my old soil mixes were affecting things to the point where I probably couldn't evaluate things well over the long term. Also, I was frequently using actively aerated compost tea (more on that below).

I don't disagree with any of the reasons Al and the rest of you have expressed for using synthetic ferts. But I've been working another way and want to change one variable at a time (right now, that'd be the soil mix) to see how that goes.

Kristi, synthetic fert is not really a problem to consume (as compared to pesticides/fungicides/herbicides etc). The reason it's not used in organic production is that the fertilizer salts kill off a lot of beneficial organisms in the soil. With organic ferts, they feed the bacteria and fungi, which in turn feed the plants. Thus, you don't want to add anything that will disrupt the "soil food web."

But of course you can't really get the same kind of soil food web going on in a pot as you can in the ground. This is what Al means when he talks about "boom and bust" cycles of bacteria in pots. He is right; it's hard to sustain the population in a stable manner to ensure the plants have adequate nutrition.

This is actually a great argument for using both synthetic and organic: the plant can absorb any nutrients it's lacking from the synthetic ferts, but you also continually re-establish the soil food web that exists in the pot.

The more I think about it, the more I believe actively aerated compost tea is the real key to growing organically in containers. This really ups the soil food web in the pot without adding the dreaded fine particles of compost! AACT can also be considered one of the finest organic liquid fertilizers there is - I don't know why I didn't mention it when you asked before. It can also be used as a foliar spray to outcompete diseases and form a biofilm that is discouraging to unwanted bugs!

Jenn

Wow Myeremike,
What an interesting story. You really don't eat them? Thank you for sharing your experience. I had a sick kid at home yesterday, which means no computer for me until this morning. Sorry if "sissy" felt a little snubbed.

Wormgirl, thanks for commenting. You said something that nobody has actually said to me yet, that the fertilizers don't pose the same threat ---to the food--- as the insecticides and herbicides do. That's at least one reason I'd consider synthetics if it becomes necessary. Do you know if the microrizzae and biotics that are in the Dr. Earth and EB Stone fertilizers are really all that helpful in containers, or is it all marketing?

I'll have to look more into compost tea. Have you posted about it here? How to make it? I don't have a compost pile set up yet... so is it something you can buy? Anyway, THANKS for offering up this alternative so I can research it.

And hey, JaG... just so you don't inadvertently feel left out of the hug fest, I appreciate your info, too. (I think I've told you that on more than one occasion... maybe... no?) Well, you are a very smart guy and you're posting on some of the same topics and boards that I've been checking out. (And no, I'm not stalking you... LOL). Having these back and forth "conversations" helps me figure out how I want to do things in my new garden.

I would love it if someone would get around to using ACT in a controlled manner. Then maybe we could all endorse or shun the method once and for all.

I have made it with homemade compost and found zilch for benefits. I have read the testimonials of those I regard as level headed (and many others ;-) who have said they experienced great benefit. I don't really know how to resolve the differing experiences.

I would love to see some experiments conducted under reasonably controlled conditions so we could all learn from them, but don't find any as of yet, at least not for container growing and for ground growing the results have been all over the place.

I do agree, that at least in theory, ACT or even teas not actively aerated would increase the microbial population so if used regularly would (theoretically) result in organic matter giving up nutrients in a more consistent manner.

Of course, there is a draw back even if it works. The bacteria won't just liberate nutrients, they will decompose the organic content of the growing mix faster too leading to lower oxygen carrying capacity in the container.

Still, this is an area that is of interest to many and hopefully we can get some solid research done on the subject.

Sorry if I posted something to this site under my nephews sign in,considering he was just here to visit me,showed me his story,and worked with me on this forum. He never signed back out.. I will try to make sure I am under my own sign in, when he leaves from now on. My true opologies . Not only did I thank him, but I also thanked justaguy... In fact, I appreciate everyone. I encourage him and others to keep sharing, guess I am just a old lady being stupid. And yes this can be a family thread too, since we both have growing plants, and citrus trees, on which I started him on, in common. In fact my niece and sister-in-law are a part of this forum too.._)I am also greatful they showed me a way to be part of this thread..In fact my relatives help me out more here,than in person . Sorry if I am kind of partial. No hugs needed. No thankyous. No more comments on my families thread either, for fear of causing an embarresment to them again.
kristi..:-)
"Sissy" didn't feel snubbed, so no worries, and I am sure my nephew wouldn't of felt that way. It is good to see your daughter is better today by the way.
Thankyou
sissy

guess I am just a old lady being stupid.

No you aren't. I, too, share a laptop with multiple family members so I know how that goes. No need for apologies.

In case you think you aren't a valuable member here, I am growing 3 citrus trees this year (lemon, orange and kumquat) and I have never done citrus before. I was inspired to give it a go from a few sources, but one of them was this forum and one of the posters I took inspiration from was you.

Without you I probably wouldn't be doing citrus this year.

You are valued and welcome here and a little sign on mix up is nothing to apologize for. Stuff happens and in the grand scheme of things it's nothing to worry about.

No need to apologize and please continue sharing your experiences (and your relatives). It is good stuff and I for one value it and appreciate it.

And hey, JaG... just so you don't inadvertently feel left out of the hug fest, I appreciate your info, too.

Awww, big hugs and a virtual hugfest sent back your way too.

I just love it how on this forum all the typical internet animosity and posturing can be left at the wayside and we can all relate our own learning and experience and get along. Such a refreshing break from the norm on the net.

Now we all need to gang up on Al (Tapla) and get him to use a self watering container :-) I think pigs might fly first, but never underestimate the power of peer pressure :)

Hi Sissy,
Now that makes more sense to me. LOL. I didn't realize you two were related. How cool that you and your family members are all here online doing this.

I think you should post on any forum you want to, including ones from Mike. In fact, Mike probably enjoys it and it's special that you two can share in your love of citrus.

Heh, I just took it the wrong way. I didn't realize there was a real Sissy and thought maybe he was taking me to task for not saying "thank you" faster or something... but come to think of it, Mike's not like that... so I guess it's all good.

Like you, my mom hangs out (or used to) a LOT on the rose forum so I'm half surprised she hasn't popped over here, too. But she does very few things in containers and she hasn't gotten too interested in my passion for citrus. Wait till I get my raised beds planted, though... I'm sure she'll be all over me about that. LOL

Hopefully, no worries. At least from my side.

And I agree with Jag.. hopefully you'll keep posting.

JaG, what we (well, umm, I) really NEED to do is get Al to figure put a way to feed containers organically. LOL

Then we'd see the pigs fly. ;-)

This is a great forum!

Kristi - yeah, don't worry about consuming the synthetic ferts. Sure, I would prefer it wasn't BLUE, but... other than that it's just minerals. (I mean, think of the whole e. coli on spinach thing we had last year - even organic ferts are dangerous when used incorrectly.)

I say if you grow your stuff organic with the exception of adding some synthetic ferts, you can still call them "Nutriclean." I have nearly convinced myself to do this writing these posts today :)

I'm trying out the Dr. Earth dry food on my acid-lovers... I like that it doesn't contain chicken poo to burn my plants. I suppose that depends on the formula. I am not sure how MUCH "probiotics" they put in, or how well they wake up when you use it, but the idea is sure good. You can see from the trend of manufacturers including those things that people are starting to come around to understand the soil food web. On the other hand, mychorrizal fungal spores die within a few hours after waking up, if they don't find roots to form a relationship with. They are probably more effective when applied directly to the roots just when planting, but it sure can't hurt.

Now as far as the compost tea, it's alive... it must be used fresh. So it's best to make it yourself, unless you have a nearby tea source and can use it immediately. It's not hard to make, but certainly something you want to read up on. I can describe a simple way to make it, but should probably start another thread if you'd like that info.

You will see bottled "worm tea" out there and honestly, I'm just not sure what's in those bottles. I can't see how it can stay alive or aerobic. I would not recommend it. Now, you certainly can buy good compost to make your tea with. Especially if you have a local source of worm castings - I'm lucky to have one nearby.

I haven't looked lately, but I bet you will find tons of posts on compost tea if you search - probably in the organic forum and vermicomposting. The single best source for info on this subject, though, is a book called "Teaming With Microbes." You'll find it on Amazon. There is also a sort of "bible" of compost tea called the "Compost Tea Brewing Manual" which is available from soilfoodweb.com.

There is also a "Compost Tea" group on Yahoo Groups which is THE source for info on compost tea. You can often get your questions answered by the world authority on the subject, Dr. Elaine Ingham. However - it gets AWFULLY technical there! And they ask that people who participate understand the basics first from the two books I mentioned above.

I mention this though, because JaG, I have noticed there is an effort to set up government standards for compost tea. The way it is classified right now it is in the same category as manure and must be applied 90 days prior to planting. Organic growers are unable to use it as intended, and therefore, research on the subject is greatly impeded. But Dr. Ingham has expanded her labs to a worldwide operation so that organic producers everywhere can get their soil and teas tested by her labs. You are right in thinking that testing your compost and tea is the only way to know for sure what you are applying. I've never done this, though, and have been happy with my results. Never done an experiment either, though :-)

JaG, there may be many reasons you didn't get results with your tea - poor extraction of organisms is the biggest problem a home brewer usually has. If there is interest, I can elaborate more on a seperate thread as I mentioned above.

Jenn

Here is a link that might be useful: Soil Food Web Inc.

Now, you certainly can buy good compost to make your tea with. Especially if you have a local source of worm castings

Just thought I would comment that I have 5 gallons of home made worm poop cured in moist conditions for over a year that is free to anyone who wants it.
If you get to SE Wisconsin contact me offline and it is free for pickup. If you want it mail ordered I will inquire what the shipping charges are. The product and handling are free.

Why would I offer it for free? I have no use for it. My loss your gain.

This isn't to say the whole compost tea thing doesn't work, rather it is to say I have done it aerated and non aerated with homemade compost and worm poop and didn't see any difference whatsoever in any plant. I do understand others report differing experiences so it's free (or cost of shipping) for anyone who wants it.

Neptune is an excellent fert in the garden. String beans never grew better and never tasted better (latter comment intended as reference to org fertilizer). However, I found that the nep fish/seaweed is next to worthless in containers. My toms suffered last yr and luckily I went over to a org granular 4-6-2 just in time to get a descent but not great harvest. This yr I am using espoma organic 5-3-3 and will supplement with some guano and worm tea.