I'll try.

Tonight we have dinner guests so I'll have to think and write later about more specific things. It's possible that I won't get back to this until Monday. Another thing that you've probably already learned is that not only is it impossible to really understand a disability that you don't have, but it's also dangerous to assume that two people with the same disability will necessarily respond to their circumstances in the same way. If your friend enjoys gardening, then I think you can assure her that she can keep her hand in and that she can choose what level of involvement to have. I started with containersand the internet. I can scan books, but many books on gardening are so dang dependent on pictures to get their points across. I did finally remember to ask my Talking Book library to send whatever they have on gardening, and they've sent a few my way.

So I guess I'd start by asking your friend to tell you what she wants from her garden. Does she already have some knowledge of plants and things? Is she looking forward to having some ground of her own to play with? Or will her attention and skills be focused elsewhere right now? Maybe you are asking more about safety, visual aids, helps for orientationÂthat sort of thing?

I do have some days when I "hate" being blind. 98% of the time I don't think about it much. The hardest part of losing my eyesight was the two year limbo from the time I began to have vision problems until the day my left eye--the only one working by then--stopped being able to see. That was, thank goodness, 20 years ago. One does adapt! But I do extend my concern for your friend as she walks the path before her. Sometimes the not knowing is the hardest part.

The doorbell is going to ring any secondÂgot to go!

Wellspring

I hope you have/had an enjoyable dinner. Whenever you have time to respond is fine - we appreciate whatever guidance you can give.

My friend is in that limbo period you were in 20 years ago. She knows intellectually that she will be blind in a future that is coming up too fast for her but is largely in denial - and scared witless at times! :-) I keep trying to encourage her to investigate the sort of things you refer to - e.g. your talking computer - but she shies away from it. She has also not yet taken advantage of resources/training available through the CNIB. It's painful to watch her struggle with this and I want to be able to give her the best help I can.

With respect to the garden... her garden knowledge is just about zero. She's originally from a tropical part of the world so knows nothing about plants and their cultivation in a northern climate. The only things she knows she wants in the garden are scented things. When she visits here during the garden season, scented flowers and the scented foliage of herbs is what she enjoys most. Planting things like that will be easy. So, yes, it's mainly the 'safety, visual aids, helps for orientation' aspect that I'm most worried about getting right. My friend is herself not at the point where she has a good sense of what she might need in that regard. I deeply appreciate whatever guidance you can offer me - I fear for my friend's safety in this period where she's a bit lost between the light and the darkness.

GW is getting harder and harder to use. Lately the search feature brings up threads, some of them very recent, and when I try to link to them, I get a "missing file" message. Every time.

Today, thinking about this thread, I thought it might be a good idea to update my member profile. I've had a new email for some time. Would the system let me do that? No.

Okay, that's off my chest. Back to the topic at hand.

First of all, I am not making any professional recommendations herejust one person's experiences. As stated above, there's as much individuality among low / no-vision people as among any other group. This can come up in many, many ways, but what I am thinking of in the landscape is the level of "special" the individual desires. Note: That level may be different from what others -- spouses, friends, rehab counselors -- think the person needs.

For low vision I'm thinking of things like bold color contrasts for assisting mobility. A blue or grey pot on a shadowy terrace may not be as visible as something brighter. And, by the way, low vision persons often lack depth perception, so the fact that the plant in the pot is perfectly visible won't keep them from whacking their shin on the container.

Let's talk about that container for a moment. I've had more split shins over containers than any other injury in the landscape. The thing is I do know where my pots are, but 1. Someone might move them, even 6 inches, and then I miscalculate, 2. The container may have no reference to another landmark which might get me to it without incident, or 3. I simply miscalculate. By now most of my pots do "relate" to something else that helps me. For instance, last summer I had a cluster of pots at one end of a bench. I can use the exterior wall of the garage to find this bench on my patio, then I follow the edge of the bench to where the pots are.

It might also help to understand that low / no vision people don't have to use canes, dogs, or sighted people to get around their environments all the time. I'm very good at mapping in my head. I could probably go on a walk for several miles around my neighborhood without a guide or cane. That's because it's familiar to me. If I'm out of town in unfamiliar territory, then I'm much, much more dependent.

I did use my husband to explore our ground at the beginning. It's like the map of a new place is sort of a swirl. It helps to have someone with eyes confirm the questions you might have about where one thing is in reference to another.

Rather rambling so far. Here are a few more points to add or sum up:

1. Mapping. At least for me knowing my own ground is very, very important. The more she goes into all the nooks and crannies of her yard, the more confident she'll be. When the weather's a bit warmer, walk it with her. Talk over what she / you like that's already there. Blue-sky it and dream big about what you'd do ifDoesn't mean that's what she'll do or you'll do for her, but the point is really to get familiar with the site as you walk it and talk about it. The goal here is helping your friend gain more confidence about her space.

2. Common language. This one may seem funny, but I have often wished that I had taken more notice of certain things before I lost my eyesight and then, much later, decided to be a gardener. I still have a heck of a time visualizing a pergola. Vase shaped plants? The only person with whom I share a common color language is my mother. When she says taupe, magenta, navy, or teal, I know what color she means. "seeing" for me, as some here may have noticed, has become a very verbal exercise.

3. Paths & routes -- The house itself, the edge of the driveway, the sidewalk, edges of beds, fences, as well as actual paths function to help me orient myself in the garden. The more definite these are the better I can find and use them. I prefer trench edging on beds, but I often fail to get a clear brain message -- "Here's the bed!" -- with this type. Edges of beds that stick up several inches rank high as a guide for orientation but low for safety as I, at least, constantly trip over them. Then there are the overhead obstacles! Our west side neighbor lets volunteer trees grow wild right at the fence line, and older shrubs go unpruned. All of this creates eye-level crap that obstructs one of my main routes along the fence.

Let me know if this is helpful.

Wellspring / Charlotte

Hi Wellspring/Charlotte! Lots of good things to think about in your comments... While everyone's experience is going to be different, I generally find the input from someone who deals with the issues themselves everyday particularly useful in highlighting details to think about. It did finally occur to me on the weekend to search on the Accessible Gardening forum here but I didn't find much.

'Introducing' my friend to her garden by walking around it and giving her a running commentary on it is definitely something we'll need to do. She's probably still in the early stages of developing those mapping skills you have so it'll be good practice for her to get very familiar with the garden space. She's still in the process of 'mapping' the inside of the house. She does have the depth perception problem (as do I...) so we're both somewhat used to dealing with that - but have the bruises to show that one can never let down one's guard! My friend just about knocked herself out last week when she mis-judged where the bathroom door was in the middle of the night apparently! (She was still following her old 'map' from the condo when she was half asleep...)

I do need to get a better sense of what a garden means for her. Other than scented things, I'm not really sure. I know my garden preferences are largely formed by the gardens I grew up with as a child. I have no idea what gardens in her original part of the world look like and what expectations she might have with respect to things like foliage shapes, flower colors etc. We'll have to explore all that. There may be some unrealistic expectations to deal with too - I remember a girl from Guyana in my university days being baffled by the fact that tomatoes had to be planted again each year! And there's lots of new language issues for us to work out together I'm sure.

The garden that's at the house now largely follows the foundation and the fence line. The path to the front door has garden beds on both sides. The path itself worries me. It's narrow at the driveway end - made with ~2' paving stones - and there's a 4-6" drop to the driveway at the end. At the front door end, the path widens to a landing area made with 3-4' patio stones - which are not level! There are 2 steps to the front door and then a step up into the front hall. The steps to the door are also not level and there is no handrail to provide support. It strikes me as dangerous - but is it something that she will just learn to navigate easily/safely from habit or should they be making a new entrance a priority?

Is a trench edge also a hazard - i.e. if you step into it, it's easy to fall. (That's one of the reasons I spent a good part of last summer and fall replacing all my trench edging with brick... I was thinking that would be a good idea for her for areas she's likely to be walking frequently...?)

Overhead obstacles are, I think, a big future issue at my friend's house. In this TINY backyard, the previous owner planted 3 (!!) pine trees of some sort. At the moment they're still only about 4' tall but in a few years they will totally eat up the yard! I think they should get rid of them now before they become an issue, but I sense it's going to be hard to convince a pair of non-gardeners to cut down these seemingly small green things!

The previous owners planted quite a few roses up against the house. I've been wondering if they're likely to be an issue at all. I've seen my friend reach out her hand to the house wall for support, fairly near the roses. How often do do entangle yourself in rose thorns?! Should the roses be moved to places where she is unlikely to accidentally reach into or fall against them?

I like the idea of brightly colored pots at the end of a bench that is easily reached. We haven't actually ventured out to the backyard yet so I don't have a very good sense of the space out there yet. From indoors, it looks a bit sloped and uneven and greatly in need of a level place for sitting etc. We'll probably have to wait another 6 weeks or so to really check things out.

Probably some people are thinking this discussion doesn't belong here. I don't know how to switch the discussion to e-mail... But, since designing for accessibility is an issue these days in many situations, I thought this discussion might provide some insights into practical aspects from a 'user' perspective :-) There are certainly lots of well-meaning 'accessible' alterations out there that drive me nuts - and I'm sure you find the same sort of thing. As much as possible, I want to avoid inadvertently causing problems for my friend so I value your perspective on all this.

Woody/Susan

Oh please don't move this discussion to e-mail! I have been following and learning. Ever since reading "Luseal's" thread in the Winter Garden forum, I have been working to make our yard more "aging friendly". I am getting older though still able to do a lot but who knows what tomorrow will bring? My husband has balance problems but loves to be out in the yard in nice weather. The yard has a slope to it and grass is hardly ever truly even so last summer we had a small patio built at the lower part of the yard and a wide path to it from the main patio so that he could safely move around. The path is wide enough for a wheelchair should we ever need it.
I have always used trench edging - simple and effective - but your point about tripping is a good one. A flush brick or narrow paver edging would make mowing easier too. Scent and texture are not often discussed as part of a design but as we age and our world becomes smaller, these can be evocative of other times, places.
You make the point about the rose thorns -not only could they make moving about painful but thorny shrubs can be hazardous to maintain.
You are providing a unique perspective and I hope you'll allow it to remain open to all.
Pat

Susan said, "I spent a good part of last summer and fall replacing all my trench edging with brick... I was thinking that would be a good idea for her for areas she's likely to be walking frequently...?"

Then Pat said, "I have always used trench edging - simple and effective - but your point about tripping is a good one. A flush brick or narrow paver edging would make mowing easier too."

I think you guys are exactly right. That's probably the best edging material for mobility purposes. My problem with it is that I don't think I can install it well. It looks and functions best only when properly installed. When I do it, if I do it, I'll try to make sure it's done right. It's main flaw is that it's so much more permanentMy beds are still growing! In one area I've decided to solve the problem by, hopefully, solving another problem at the same time. I need a path out into the back yard. I sometimes get "lost" in NO Man's Land. I have ways to orient myself but a path sort of circling through the area would help. So the "edge" of beds that I've been widening is likely to be a 4 foot mulch path.

Susan- I confess that Iam not unbiased about steps. I absolutely loathe steps. That being said, I like houses that have stairs. I like changes of elevation in a landscape. And, my raised ranch has a walk out basement with 6 concrete steps up to the back yard level. I go up and down them all summer long. Some steps, well placed, can function as one of those landmarks I was talking aboutbut, even so, I loathe steps.

So, what to do about the step at the driveway end of the path and the several steps at the front door of your friend's home? When I do deal with steps, I prefer military precision. Did you catch that thread a month ago or so where some stairs had been put in with variations in tread and risers? That's my personal nightmare. I've gone on rocky hikes in the Appalachias when we lived in Kentucky, going up irregular steps to climb different mountain paths. I--and the dog I had then whom I called my "mountain dog"--loved it! I DO NOT, However, want to deal with that at my front door!

But you're right. People get used to things. I am wondering thoughwhy the unevenness? That worries me as much as anything.

Charlotte

I waited 8 years to install the brick edge - largely to allow me time to play with the shape and size of the garden beds. Of course, as soon as I finished the ones on the front lawn, I immediately wanted to change the shape...:-) oh well... I'll live with them as they are now. I hope I've got them installed reasonably well. The most important part I think was using the metal 'Curve-rite' edge between the bricks and the grass to keep the grass from growing between the bricks. Leveling the bricks was a bit of a PITA :-) I'm anxiously waiting to see how well it came through a winter's worth of freeze-thaw cycles... Putting in the brick edge was largely driven by my desire to eliminate the chore of edging - it was starting to take up too much of my limited energy and taking up far too much time (I work slowly...) But the first thing I noticed once I finished the first stretch was how much safer I felt walking around the garden as I no longer needed to worry about the wheels of the walker dropping into a trench and cause me to fall (I have very poor balance). It was a lot of work putting in the brick edging so, for my friend, if we do some there, I'd probably focus on the backyard area she'd use the most. Her DH can do the rest if he wants to once the garden beds are finalized. But I suspect my friend will likely focus her garden efforts in the backyard and leave the foundation areas fairly simple.

Like you, Charlotte, the other way I eliminated edging is by putting the mulch/sand combination paths, wherever possible, in areas that would otherwise need to be edged. It works great! My paths are much narrower than the 4' width though. Other than a front entrance walk, I really don't see a great need for paths to be that wide. My driveway literally sweeps past the end of the front porch steps so there's actually no front walk here at all.

Steps are a curse! I did see that thread about the uneven risers. I was so p-o'd at the company that paved our driveway because they didn't adjust the level of the asphalt to make sure the step from the driveway to the first porch step was equal to the rest of the risers. We assumed they'd have the sense to do it right! Stupid assumption! We constantly have to warn people to watch out for the first step! Fortunately I don't use the stairs very often (use the porch lift instead..) so I rarely trip over it.

I think the unevenness of my friend's front steps is a combination of shoddy original construction by the builder and inexpert DIY installation of the lower landing area by the original owners. I'm pretty sure my friend doesn't have a lot of surplus cash at the moment after the move so they're probably going to want to try to live with it for a while. I just hope it's not too much of a hazard...? The lower landing area can probably be easily fixed with some leveling work by her DH. The stairs may be able to be fixed that way too - I don't think they're poured concrete - I think they're pre-fab steps stacked one on top of the other. I'll have to look more closely the next time I'm there.

Speaking of hazards - any thoughts on how hazardous the roses on the walls are? Should we plan on moving the ones along the house wall on the path from the driveway to the front door? Those are the ones I think she's most likely to have painful encounters with. Has run-ins with rose thorns ever been an issue for you?

I don't think my friend will ever have to worry about getting lost in the open space in her backyard - it's much too small for that!

I e-mailed my friend this afternoon to ask her to think about what says 'garden' to her to get her thinking about - and give me a better feel for - what she would ideally want in the garden. I really have no idea what she will come back with other than the issue of scent. It should be interesting....
Susan

About the roses

That may be one of those "leave them be" for now points. I don't say that from rose experience, but more from longing. I almost talked myself into a rose shrub or two for a spot that's probably my best for roses. Talked myself out of it again because of pruning and chemical care. If I did get roses, I'd try to get one that needs little (or as little as possible) babying.

But your friend may want to let these roses be for now. Unlesstheir location doesn't work in the design anyway or the roses are poor for some other reason. If I ever do plant a rose, it will have to be fragrant. Wouldn't risk the pain without that pleasure.

That being said, the first plant that bit the dust around here was a holly tree. It had been planted far too close to the foundation. It had been given a buzz cut at about 25 feet. It looked cramped, ugly, and unhappy as the sole inhabitant of a (blech) gravel mulched bed right outside the front door. When I would try to weed that bed before we changed things, I'd often end up with 2 or 3 holly leaves sticking out of my fingers. When I wasn't bleeding from the holly, I was bleeding from the gravel.

I guess I'm purposely giving you a mixed review. Your friend may decide that she doesn't want to have to take extra care to negotiate the roses, or she may like the roses enough that they should stay. It may also depend on how often she takes that particular route. I have arborrvitae along a section of the house foundation. It's not exactly comfortable to grab hold of, but I'm in that area much less frequently than others.

You got me pondering the width of paths thing. Too narrow is tricky for me. It becomes an exercise in walking a tightrope. I have mostly 3 foot paths at present, and they work fine. Stepping stones are not a great idea for paths, but I do use some at strategic points for getting into deeper beds. I also use stones as a way of keeping track of plantings, say, to mark where I've put the tulips!

I think you've mentioned ways that you've put hand holds in beds? A firm stabilizing grip can be handy for just about anybody. But there is a caveat for those who can't see well. Stuff that sticks up can become stuf that pokes you in the nose or eye when you try to bend down. The only thing I have like that right now is one obelisk that supports one of my clematis. But I'm cautious when I'm working in that areayou start moving fast, trying to get something done, you leave the trowel on the ground, bend down and WHAP!

Charlotte

The roses are definitely going to be a 'leave them be' for now. I just heard back from my friend as to what says 'garden' to her. Scent and flowers were the key things she associates with gardens. Lots of vines on fences was the first thing - particularly roses and jasmine! Hibiscus was also something she remembered fondly, especially a yellow one. Edible things in the garden were also important - a papaya tree was an important part of her family's garden...

I've sent her some pictures of some scented small-flowered white clematises to see if they would be acceptable jasmine substitutes. (Paul Farges and Sweet Autumn provide a long season of scented white flowers for me so I've sent her pictures of those.) I've also sent her pictures of my 'Harlequin' honeysuckle as an example of another scented, flowering vine. I've sent her pictures of hardy hibiscus - as far as I know, they don't come in yellow though... If it's the flower shape she likes, perhaps daylilies might fit the bill. I'll have to give more thought to what other plants, particularly a shrub, might be a substitute for a yellow hibiscus!

I had to look up what a papaya tree looks like. I can't think of anything hardy that would be a look-alike with fruit but suggested maybe planting something like a peach - or other fruit tree - on the front or side lawn would be a substitute.

Since there really is no room for a vegetable garden, edible plants will get mixed into the ornamental beds. I've asked her which fresh fruits and vegetables most appeal to her.

I've asked her to pay attention to whether the current roses 'attack' her at all, with an eye to moving those that do. I've also asked her if she's talking to the previous owner again, to ask if the woman remembers the names of the roses. I'd like to look them up to see how disease-resistant they are. Like you, I am not keen on those that need application of chemicals! I have very few roses here and all of them are on sufferance - too much ugliness from pests or diseases and out they go! I refuse to spray or fuss... 'Hot Cocoa' is barely making the cut - it's still here just because it's part of my 'chocolate' garden (my DH works for a chocolate company so my 'chocolate' garden is sort of a botanical joke for him...:-)

I don't think I need to worry about paths for my friend's garden. It's too small to need paths in the backyard. I need to wait for spring to get a better handle on whether there are - or need to be - paths in the front and side lawns. I agree that stepping stones are not a good option. I wouldn't put the supports I use into my friend's garden either. They definitely could be a hazard for her - they work for me because I put them there so I know where they are! They were also custom built for me and 'fit' my height - my friend is a fair bit taller so the stability point would be off if she fell against them. There are also knobs on the top that help my grip but would be one of those things that could be a real threat to her. If she ends up needing support in the garden, we'll need to come up with something that suits her particular needs, not mine :-)

Interesting on the width of paths issue - I'm actually more comfortable on a path where there is vegetation (no thorns or sharp stuff!) on either side. Open spaces take away reference points I need for balance while a more enclosed path gives me a frame of reference on both sides. Of course, a too narrow, hard path (stone or whatever) is hazardous if it is raised at all above ground level. The safest path for me is 30-36", made of something soft like mulch (softer landing if I fall!) and enclosed by vegetation. If a path must be wide and in an open space, it needs to be very smooth. Poured concrete actually works best. I cringe every time I have to walk a paver path. In our climate, they inevitably become uneven but do not always look like they are, so I get unexpected assaults on my balance and it is often not easy to recover from them. A herringbone pattern is one that particularly drives me crazy - probably because of my lack of depth perception. A herringbone pattern somehow looks 3-D to me - a series of short, sharp upright hills and valleys that leave me uncertain what my feet are going to find when I step on it! The absolute worst path I encounter frequently is a fieldstone path to the front door of another friend's house. Rough stone, a walker, and a balance problem is a disaster waiting to happen! So far, I haven't come to grief on it but I really, really hate her path! Paths are one of those issues that are less straightforward than one might expect...

Susan