Ok. It sounds like your mind is already made up, but if you've eliminated what are likely to be your best options from the perspective of results, I consider that self-limiting. This is not meant to be insulting, but from reading your reply I can see there is a lot you don't know/understand about fertilizing, yet you're very certain about some things. It's probably better I don't trouble you with my thoughts then, unless you ask.

Take care, and good luck.

Al

Well, there's not really an ideal combination in your list, but i'd say the closest would be the following:

AGGRAND Natural Fertilizer: 4-3-3 with maybe a half strength dose of this one added...AGGRAND Natural Kelp & Sulfate of Potash: 0-0-8 & a little extra Nitrogen from some source along with a small dose of AGGRAND Natural Liquid Lime with Magnesium & Calcium. This is all just a guesstimate of sorts though, as you need a soil test which may prove you don't need some of these.

So, after seedling stage (when plants are 5-6 inches tall at least with several sets of leaves), do half strength of the items below & gradually over the next 4-6 weeks afterwards, bring it up to 100% strength.

1 regular dose AGGRAND Natural Fertilizer: 4-3-3 (see bottle for dose...usually like 1 tsp per gallon of water)
1/2 regular dose AGGRAND Natural Kelp & Sulfate of Potash: 0-0-8
1/4 regular dose AGGRAND Natural Liquid Lime with Magnesium & Calcium

Feed plants weekely or bi-weekly.

I do agree with Al though, in that you have limited your choices not to allow really for an optimal fertilization plan.

- Steve

Al - Of course I don't know a lot about fertilizing, or else why would I be asking for help adopting a regimen? I too thought that I would need more than what I have, but I hate to see it go to waste. I was hoping that someone could tell me how to work with what I have, and maybe suggest something to balance it out instead of saying it just won't work and I should throw it all away. Every single person that has chimed in about this topic for me in the past suggests I make my own compost, and that is just highly unlikely to happen at the current time.

Thanks steve and al... so what's optimal fertilization?

Here is optimal fertilization:

Fertilizer Program for Containerized Plants

Basically, compost and organic fertilizers work great in the ground, but not so well in containers. If you have some organic fertilizer left over, you don't have to throw it out. Use it in a garden, or give it to someone who will. Many growers here have found Dyna-Gro's Foliage Pro 9-3-6 to be a nearly perfect formula for container plants, but the thread above will explain much more.

Thanks penfold2, but Im having conflicting views. While 9-3-6 might be good for the vegetative stage, shouldnÂt a different formula be used for the fruiting stage? The ratio of nitrogen here seems a bit high when you want to focus on fruiting, even if you were to add bonemeal at 0-12-0, wouldn't the final rate of 9-12-6 be less than optimal during the fruiting stage since the nitrogen is still pretty high?

If your advice regarding compost and organic fertilizers being better for outdoor use is true, then why does tapla recommend an organic 12-4-8 for container plants in his article? From the numerous articles and books that I have read on the topic, optimal fertilization is not about matching the tissue analysis of plants at a 10-1-5/7 rate; it's about supplying the right nutrients at the right time during the plant's life cycle to trigger the hormones needed for strong roots as a seedling, leafy green growth as a young plant, or abundant flowers for fruiting.

Despite having no interest in making my own compost, I still believe that you will never burn or harm your plants by using it. The plants take exactly what they need from that nutrient rich medium, and in that way, it is optimal. However, let's say you're practicing hydroponics and the medium is potting pellets. There are no nutrients in the pellets; the grower must intervene and supply a quantifiable amount of what he or she thinks the plant needs. Human error is what burns plants since the dosage can always be weakened. But even if we supply 12-4-8 at a weak dose, the percentages are still not optimal at all stages of the growth cycle. Tapla warns about using a 10-52-10, (which I wouldnÂt do because I know its overkill - much like 52-10-10 would be) but NPK numbers donÂt have to be extremely high to burn plants. You can still burn plants by using organic fertilizers. By supplying a biweekly dose of 12-4-8 throughout the plant's life cycle, you're encouraging constant green, leafy growth which restricts fruiting yields and causes excess nitrogen buildup, especially if the medium is soil.

Additionally, the chiles and tomatoes that I'm growing love calcium and magnesium. Your typical 9-3-6 doesnÂt supply these nutrients. Liquid lime supplies them, but also affects pH. Does this mean I need a pH meter? Again, I want to try and work with what I have, and that means not going to the store to buy Epsom salts or completely giving everything away and buying a 9-3-6 "organic" fertilizer that I know is only good for the vegetative stage.

IÂm new here so I donÂt know tapla, nor do I mean any disrespect, but in his article that you linked, he recommends Miracle Gro fertilizer. IÂve never met anyone with supreme fertilizer knowledge to recommend such a horrible product. Any reputable garden store owner or horticultural graduate would agree against using Miracle Gro nutrients. It's like a Doctor advising a person with a Vitamin A deficiency to take Centrum Vitamins when they need something of much higher quality. It's not only about the perfect ratio, as tapla says, 12-4-8. It's also about the quality and the source of these nutrients. For instance, Vitamin A can be supplied from retinol, beta-carotene, palmitate, acetate, or the best option: natural food (which is the closest comparison to using compost).

In closing, I don't claim to know everything about fertilizers. I'm actually rather new to the topic. But that doesn't mean I will scratch everything that I have ever read about the topic and wholeheartedly believe in one person's advice on a web forum. The advice doesn't support the facts.

It is easy..

Use what you know works and don't use what you have to second guess..By the time you get it right, you may loose hundreds of plants like I did, or get much smaller yields....

Organics were never consistently reliable for me over time in containers, so I don't use them and everyone who gets my vegetables and fruits at the end of the summer, swear they taste just as good as the ones in the ground, fed organically..In fact I get better and bigger yields over a longer period of time..

Good luck,

Mike..;-)

I understand your question is in regard to fertilizer and that has been addressed. What strikes me is you are growing full sun plants indoors with what appears to be very inadequate amounts of light. Have you used a light meter to confirm the amount of light the plants are receiving? Al

Foliage Pro 9-3-6 *does* supply those nutrients...
I just got up from my chair to read the bottle - Calcium and Magnesium.

I mix a slow-release Osmocote into my soils, and I also fertigate with Foliage Pro.

Josh

Every question you raised has been addressed time & time again on this forum, but there are so many sweeping statements and enough bias in the sum of what you believe to lead me to think that the effort in trying to convince you would likely end in frustration for me, and/or you feeling antagonized, so it's better that I sit this one out ...... but I do wish you well.

FWIW - I agree with Mike. Hundreds, if not thousands of folks hanging out here or who were just passing through this forum are growing perfectly happy, healthy plants in airy soils using soluble fertilizers like MG, FP, and others. I used to think that the organic approach to container culture was a noble ideology, but I soon abandoned it for what I found to be a more results-oriented approach.

.... best of luck in your endeavors.

Al

@calistoga: my growing area is 2x4 by which 10,000 lumens directly shines on 4 to 5 mature plants. I have fruited them in the past, but I noticed the plants form a leaf canopy that blocks light from hitting the middle and lower parts, thus all my growth is focused at the top of the plants. That is why I posted another thread in the "growing under lights" section whereupon I'm looking for advice on supplementing CFL's for side growth.

@Mike: I have never lost any plants, I just want bigger yields. This could be due to a combination of things, not just fertilizer. As calistoga recognized, I need more light to hit the middle of my plants so fruiting happens more than just at the tops.

@tapla: There's no to little bias in my remarks. I stated facts that support why I don't believe in your tissue-alignment-fertilizer approach but you haven't backed it up. If this method always provides results, please explain how you have abundant fruit yields with such low levels of phosphorous. Also, I thought that every plant is different and that a fertilizer that works for lemons may not be suitable for tomatoes. 12-4-8 can't be used for everything, Al... or can it? Don't back down just because you cannot explain. We're here to learn. Even if we don't agree with some points, we're still learning.

FWIW~~ Al would never "back down" if he cant explain something.. He would be more than happy to discuss it if he didn't understand something. You stated not knowing him very well, and that is obvious if this is your thinking.

Al stated why he chooses not to go any further in this. You seem set in your ways to use organic.

Al is the most generous man I know who gives his time and knowledge freely to those with an open mind..

I have Miracle gro all purp. 12-4-8
It says on the bottle...
All Flowers~vegetables~Trees~Shrubs~houseplants
Sounds like evverything...

JoJo

This is not a question of his character, it's more about not fully explaining the reasoning behind his methods. Comparing fertilizer to plant tissue is not as convincing as the reasoning that suggests every plant is different and each plant requires different nutrients at different life stages.

Yes, I am set in my ways of using organic methods. That doesn't mean I'm not curious in the way others achieve results. Rather than turn this into an organic vs. man-made chemical fertilizer debate, I'm simply curious about why we feed the plants the nutrients we feed them. Human mother's generally need more, less or different nutrients during childbirth. We don't recommend that non-mother's receive the same nutrients as a pregnant woman. As a comparison, why should plants that produce flowers and fruit still receive a high nitrogen fertilizer? Just because it aligns with their tissue composition?- I don't think so.

And for your information, most fertilizers that register in single digits are organic fertilizers, so I don't know why you are recommending against them when you're in fact using them.

In case you're wondering what I'm talking about, I wasn't referring to Miracle Gro, which is obviously a chemical fertilizer. The Under 10/15 fertilizer ratio is not a rule for organic ferts, nevertheless it is a good indicator. The Earth's Juice fertilizer recommended in tapla's containerized plant article is organic. Dyna Gro is mostly organic; the nitrogen is derived from a chemical source.

I've explained all you're asking very clearly in the things I've written - 100 ways from Sunday; and it's not that I can't explain in deep detail why I say anything I do. There are a number of things you consider fact that I simply don't agree with, and I just don't feel like going through the effort of trying to get you see another perspective. I think you can respect that? It's not a cop out, because folks know that I've repeatedly spent as much time as necessary to help those that are less limited because of their ideology.

BTW - last time I checked, there was nothing organic about the MG 12-4-8 JJ mentioned (or Foliage-Pro 9-3-6). Both are superb choices as all-purpose fertilizers for a very wide variety of containerized plants, as evidenced by the large number of happy growers who are using them

Peace.

Al

"This is not a question of his character, it's more about not fully explaining the reasoning behind his methods"

No punt intended igrowindoors, but I was curious to know if you have spent weeks and years reading all that Al has written down for free here as I have?

I think you will find a wealth of info..

Take care;-)

Mike

I see that this is the wrong forum to ask for professional, educated information. There's much bias here with very little facts that support the evidence. The point of nutrient supplements is not to give organisms what they already have, i.e. nutrient levels proportionate to their living tissue. Instead, a good nutrient supplement supplies what the organism NEEDS, i.e. higher levels of Vitamin A if you have bad eyes or adequate Vitamin C so you don't develop Scurvy. Plants need nutrients in the same way. But you're recommending the same ratio of fertilizer for every plant on earth at every stage in their life. That advice is simply wrong and since no one else has an opinion, I'll stick to using thehelpfulgardener.com

Here's a little info before I go:

Chemical fertilizers - Although they are immediately available to plants, chemical fertilizers have three main disadvantages. They are subject to leaching, which occurs when the fertilizers are washed by rain or irrigation water down below the level of the plant roots. Nitrogen is particularly susceptible to leaching. As well, a heavy application of chemical fertilizers can "burn" seedlings and young plants. This is actually a process of drying out, or desiccation, due to the presence of chemical salts within the commercial fertilizers. A third problem associated with the use of commercial fertilizers is that overly heavy applications can build up toxic concentrations of salts in the soil and create chemical imbalances.

Unlike chemical fertilizers, organic material does more than provide organic nutrients. It also improves the soil structure, or tilth, and increases its ability to hold both water and nutrients. As microorganisms in the soil break down the organic material into an inorganic soluble form, a slow release of nutrients is provided over a longer period of time. This is probably a healthier situation for plant growth in that an oversupply of a nutrient such as nitrogen can lead to lush, succulent tissue growth which is more vulnerable to fungal and bacterial entry, more appealing to some insects, and more prone to stress injury from heat, cold, or drought.

With organic fertilizers a buildup of toxicity in the soil is unlikely, as long as the amount of organic material incorporated into the soil is fully decomposed.

I read Al's link from above and also asked for his advice about 2 months ago on this. I have been using the Foliage Pro 9-3-6 for a little over a month on my plants & have seen an awesome difference compared to a standard MG fert I used last year, in just the short time i've been using it. Like others say, it also supplies Calcium & Magnesium (plus a few other nutrients) to help in prevention of BER, etc.. So, I would be fine with saying that the Foliage Pro 9-3-6 is the optimal fertilizer.

- Steve

igrow...

>>>12-4-8 can't be used for everything, Al... or can it? This is what I answered... I simply read what the bottle says..

Have a nice day evryone!

JoJo

@steve: You're comparing Foliage Pro, which is mostly organic (not completely organic) to Miracle Gro. You haven't compared it to a good organic fertilizer or compost. I wouldn't recommend using MG fertilizer at all so any step you can take away from that brand is a good one.

@jojo & steve: im betting your plants are in the vegetative stages. are they in containers? do they eventually bear fruit or produce flowers? sure, they may be overwhelmed with green leafy growth, but that's not the sole indicator of a plant's vigor. That just means it's receiving a lot of nitrogen and light.

Don't talk about Hiltler!

Some of my relatives were murdered because of him...Leave Al out of it!

You speak of professionalism?????????????

I have done nothing to you to deserve a remark like that.

YOU OWE US AN OPOLOGY!Or disappear with your snide remarks or these forums will sure you do.

Hey Mike, I didn't mean anything personal by it. Calm down. I just meant that as people, we should value forming our opinions based on multiple sources and proven evidence. We shouldn't blindly take in the opinions of one individual on a claim that we never heard before simply because they provided some pseudo, untested and unrelated test behind their recommendation. The previous comment was not intended to spread hate, but to prevent blind faith in one source with a lack of factual reasoning.

Wow, I'm gonna opt out of this thread. Igrow is obviously moody. So much for trying to help. He's all yours, Mike. ;)

I'm still learning on the topic but I can say Al's advice made a world of difference in my yields, so I'll try and answer your questions.

I think organics are a great way to go if you're in the ground. Temperatures are much closer to ideal for bacterial critters to process nutrients so they are available for the plant. Are you aware of the term Mineralization? I learned that word this week Mineralization is the process by which organic nutrients are converted to inorganic forms, which plants can take up. In containers especially my black nursery pots temperatures vary wildly. Microbe activity (and as a result, nutrient availability) is linked to temperature if you have climate-controlled perfection in your house, maybe this is not a problem for you.

As for leaching and fertilizer burn both can be managed by applying a 1/4-1/2 of the recommended dose at higher intervals. You don't eat 3 times a year, neither do your plants.

I know there are a few folks who go the organic route in containers, and they seem to agree that generally this requires fertilizing at double the recommended dose to get good results. For me personally, I'd rather the nutrients I apply be available directly to my plants, without involving a bacterial/fungal middleman.

Does a plant care (grow better/yield better) if its N comes from Ammoniacal N or Nitric N? Perhaps, depends on the plant (ex:blueberries) and situation (temperature). Does a plant care if its nutrients come from manure or minerals, as long as they're available? Given equal, ideal growing conditions with no plant stress, I'd say no way.

Your argument that "Unlike chemical fertilizers, organic material does more than provide organic nutrients. It also improves the soil structure, water retention, etc..." may work in the ground, but containers are a different world. Aeration is king and pumping your peat/perlite/___ potting soil airspace full of organic muck is not conducive to plant health. Water retention is a false friend sure you water less, but your plants growth in water retentive soil can't keep up with a plant in well-aerated hydroponic or even aeroponic condititions.

But long story short, I'd suggest you go Raybo's route and try a mythbusters fertilizer challenge. Do both, control variables and see what works in your environment. Nothing like some good science to change (mis?)perceptions.

Great idea tn_veggie,

I'm gonna opt out too...
Still no opology.
He's all yours someone else..:-)

@ruet: The only advantage to chemical fertilizers is that the nutrients are immediately received by the plants. Your argument that organic fertilizers are better for outdoor growing while chemical fertilizers are better for indoor gardening is contradictory to the way commercial farms operate. Most huge, commercial farms rely on chemical fertilizers to reduce cost, save time and to better predict harvest times. It's more about efficiency than it is producing a perfect product. That's why most of your supermarket produce is horrid.

It's not entirely true that the nutrients in organic potting mixes, organic fertilizers and compost are not readily available to the plant. Nutrients are available when the plant needs them. The plant decides when to take it up instead of the grower force-feeding the plants with concentrated chemical fertilizers. You can't burn plants this way and that contributes to healthier plants.

I never suggested feeding plants 3x a year nor did anyone else. Tapla suggests biweekly or weekly feedings just like most organic growers do.

I've never had a problem with bacteria, fungus, disease, bugs or overbearing smells with my particular organic fertilizer. Actually the last part can be true if you mix the fertilizer in large amounts, keep it for a week or more and allow it to ferment in a water bottle, but I don't do this. I mix the nutrients fresh every time I use them. However, the above reference problems can come about if you use "certain" organic fertilizers. Fish emulsion for example is different than hydrolyzed fish fertilizer. Here is an example - http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/fish-fertilizer/

As long as you amend organically prepared soil correctly, you should never have issues with drainage, watering less frequently, bacteria, smells, fungus, etc. Using chemical fertilizers however can increase salt levels drastically and kill your plants.

I still haven't heard anyone's input regarding usage of high nitrogen fertilizers for every plant in the world at every stage of their lives. Did what I explained about this go right over your heads? It's very simple.

And Mike, please stop with the baby attitude, and learn how to spell. You know I didn't intend to offend anyone.

I think it first must be understood that growing in the ground and growing within the confines of a container are two totally different worlds. With that said, what works in the garden is not likely to work when growing in pots... especially under a T5 fixture.

My indoor container plants are growing under dual T12 fixtures, and it's STILL not enough light. But the questions were regarding fertilizer, so let's go there...

Since container and garden growing differ so greatly, an organic program that nets good garden results is not the best program for indoor container growing. Most organic fertilizers are not immediately available as plant nutrition, and require further breaking down... which usually occurs in a garden setting due to the army of microscopic creatures, bacterias, fungi, worms, nematodes, etc... containers do not have the same environment, so I would go with a chemical plant food that IS readily available for plant use.

I get excellent results with MiracleGro 12-4-8, and the addition of micro-nutrients. I'd prefer to be using Foliage Pro, but I'll only buy some when my bottle of Miracle Gro is used up. It's a budget thing. I also subscribe to the idea that a medium should be very free-draining and aerated. I use liquid fertilizer at around 1/4 strength, almost every time watering is necessary, thus giving my plants a constant supply of food in a low strength preparation.

To be perfectly honest... I'd use all the mentioned products outdoors in the garden, and I'd spring for a small container of liquid chemical fertilizer. There's nothing wrong with MiracleGro... it's not the top plant food, but it serves a purpose. I think more people prefer Foliage Pro.

No offense is intended, but when a person comes asking for help, it pays to treat those who share their knowledge freely with a modicum of respect and consideration. These people don't have to share what they know... they do it because they're kind, and they want you to have the same growing success they are having.

It's your choice whether or not you heed the advice given... but it's not very professional or nice to kick the gift horse(s) in the face, so to speak.

And, for heaven's sake... spelling is not important on a gardening forum. If you want perfect spelling, you've come to the wrong message board.

In closing, it seems like you had your mind made up before you ever typed out your first post. That's how I read it, anyway... and I'd call that bias. For what it's worth, Al and several others have given you excellent advice... someone with an open mind could benefit greatly from it... I have.

@jodik: Twin 54-watt T5's at 10,000 lumens is enough light for 4 to 5 plants in a 2x4 growing area. I have already harvested fruits from all of my plants with this setup. Pretty soon, I'm planning on adding some supplemental CFL lighting for side growth. With that being said, if I tried the same thing with your dual T12's, I would not see results past the seedling/young plant stage as these are quite inferior when compared to HO T5's.

What you guys still aren't understanding is how Organic Fertilizers work. The younger the plant is, the less food it needs. That gives the amended organic soil the opportunity to grow richer as the plant ages, thus providing more food later. The plant will take what it needs. As long as you maintain the soil and feed it regularly at the recommended dosage, your plants will never burn and they will have all of the major and more of the minor nutrients that any chemical fertilizer can offer. For instance, seaweed and kelp meal provide nutrients that most chemical fertilizers do not.

In closing, the welcome I received from Al in this post and others was far from kind. I sensed a mocking attitude, especially when he found out that I was an organic grower. Most of the people on thehelpfulgardener.com are into organic methods because knowledge and experience; not in the blind faith of one man's advice as many of you are taking in at this website. I may seem argumentative because that kind of reasoning is one of my pet peeves. I'm sorry to anyone that I offended. I don't presume to believe what I believe in because of bias. I believe it because I have worked with both chemical and organic fertilizers and the difference to me is clear. My problem is working with the particular nutrients that I have. But since no one is familiar with organic nutrients here, I feel like I'm wasting my time. :(

im laughing so hard I cant breathe. I emailed al and I don't even know him just to thank him. Never spoke a word to him and wasn't even a member of this forum (still might not be, my post dissapear sometimes.. ?). The things I ABSORBED made some huge green plants like nothing I've grown in 3 years now. If you try new things you may like new things.. or not, thats the fun of it. On a side note I more then enjoyed the "Oganic Foods" episode of "Penn & Teller" on Showtime channel.. sorry couldn't help it :)

Hey, Igrow, welcome to the Board!

Unless (one) can control (his or her) container and soil temperatures, the organic method will not perform as well.
That's the primary reason not to use organic fertilizers in a container.

Buying a bottle of Foliage Pro and using it judiciously isn't going to kill the planet, so don't worry about selling out on that front.

You can still ascribe to all those Green fancies particular to the organic crowd... ;)

Josh

You may well be wasting your time, but I'm sure others are feeling the the reciprocal fits.

You blame me for the welcome you received, but it only takes a cursory glance at the thread to see what happened. You'll note in my first post I asked a very simple question, to which I got a bristly mini-lecture in return. From that reply, I decided it would be better if I bowed out of the thread, which I did. Your disparaging remarks about some of my offerings on another thread that were not even directed at you prompted me to mention it's not that I can't explain these things to you, it's simply that I'm not inclined to do it - and that almost never happens.

I found it rather telling that someone would come to a forum one day after registering asking "please help me with a fertilizer program", and in the next breath be arguing and lecturing all participants on how they should be conducting their fertilizer program.

Hopefully someone will come along and offer advice that fits within whatever parameters you've established as acceptable. I'll be happy to stay out of your thread(s), but I'd appreciate it if you keep your reproachful remarks about me to yourself.

Al

I think most people here understand how organic fertilizers work and that is precisely why they don't use them in containers. The primary difference between organic and inorganic fertilizers is that organic fertilizers must be broken down by soil microorganisms before they can be absorbed by plants. This works well in the ground because the stable environmental conditions of the earth support a stable microorganism population. Also, the massive soil volume helps buffer changes due to fertilizer additions. In containers, however, things change much faster. Fluctuating temperature and moisture levels affect microorganism populations which in turn affect nutrient availability. This means low microorganism populations could cause deficiencies while a sudden population boom could easily cause root burn. Inorganic fertilizers, on the other hand, provide immediately available nutrients and are easily flushed from the soil. This is a good thing in containers because it means that with regular fertilizing you can maintain a consistent level of nutrients.

Organic fertilizers can be used in containers, but they offer no advantage over inorganic fertilizers and have some rather significant problems. A good inorganic fertilizer like the FP 9-3-6 I mentioned earlier can provide plants with every essential nutrient at a consistent concentration. You can't do any better than that.

"Organic fertilizers can be used in containers, but they offer no advantage over inorganic fertilizers and have some rather significant problems."

penfold2: I'm sorry but organic fertilizers outshine man-made, chemical fertilizers in every way other than immediate absorption of nutrients.

The reason that most of you haven't had success using OG Fertilizers in containers is from not using compost. If you add a portion of compost in your containers, you have enough organic activity to build a nutrient rich potting mix that supplies everything the plant needs without any worry of burning. I don't use 100% compost in containers because it promotes poor drainage, but a portion is always helpful for reasons previously stated. I've been doing this for years and I've never had any issues described by some of you in this thread. It has become obvious that no one here has grown plants indoors, in containers, with a compost amendment, under lights, with organic fertilizers, to maturity. I'm not asking how to accomplish this as I have already accomplished it. So yes, you can without a doubt grow organically in containers. But that is not my question nor should it be your concern.

My initial question, which it's obvious that no one can help me with, pertained to the specific fertilizers that I was gifted and how to implement them. By reading the label on the liquid lime and the liquid bonemeal, it seems they are in fact meant for outdoor use. Yet, the kelp and sulfate of potash along with the 4-3-3 fertilizer has instructions for both outdoor and indoor use. All 4 products come as a set so I was confused as to why each product doesn't have more detailed instructions. Now, I am aware that most homeowners do not grow fruiting plants indoors to maturity and that is probably why 2 of the 4 ingredients have no indoor instructions - bonemeal for instance is used to boost phosphorous for flowering/fruiting plants. But since no one at gardenweb.com believes as society does (that higher levels of phosphorous is needed at fruiting stages) I feel like I'm wasting my time here. Im not sure what "Al's mix" is, but I'm almost positive it will not apply to all plants, herbs, fruit etc.

And to all of you hypocrites, take a look at a thread Al replied to in 2005. It's called "Do organic fertilizers work in containers?" In this thread, Al says,

"As I mentioned - plants don't care where their nutrients come from, and I've had equally satisfactory results from using both organic and inorganic fertilizer products."

"organic fertilizers DO require microbial activity to break them down into usable components and there is always microbial activity ongoing in container soils."

"The soils that most container gardeners use are usually 100% organic. The microbes are already there. If, by some chance a decision is made to sterilize container soils, the moment you plant anything other than seeds in the soil, it is inoculated with the microbes. As long as there is a N source, they will continue to multiply, but they are not necessary for plants to be able to absorb nutrients. As long as soil pH is within a suitable range, fertilizers, organic or inorganic, can supply all the nutrients necessary for healthy plants whether microbial activity is present or not."

Question: Al ... "What would you recommend for a good calcium boost (for tomatoes)?"

"How about crushed limestone (calcium carbonate) used as a mulch or crushed eggshells? The lime that is often sold for lawn or garden application is very high in Mg & can create problems in containers by interfering with uptake of K."

"Just got 2 gallons of different mixes of fish emulsion today, BTW. ;o)"

Here's another link regarding container/organic methods to educate you if you're interested:

http://www.containergardeningguru.com/fertilizer.html

To Al...

I see you deleted my recent reply to your above referenced post. I'm not surprised. This is typical of someone who wants to uphold their ego and influence over their minions. To prove my point, I took a 'cursory glance' at some of the threads on this site: "Al's Mix" "Al's Advice for Containerized Plants" "Al's Mix for Roses", etc. etc. etc... you get my point. Is there any advice besides Al's advice here. I found my answers elsewhere, where a monopoly of Al's biased and hypocritical advice was not in effect.

Also, I never recommended that you do what I do - I was simply defending my own ways. You stepped out of bounds making this an organic vs. inorganic debate, which wasn't my question.

We cant delete posts to my knoweldge...

But GW moderators can and will if you get out of line..

Which I know one had been removed yesterday.

Actually, I didn't make that argument - I never even argued with you. The arguments started between you and others after the lectures you gave. I recognized almost immediately that it would be better if I bowed out of the fertilizer 'discussion'. I have no idea what you are referring to as far as deleting anything, but I hope admin sees fit to delete anything the consider an unnecessary harangue.

Al

Hey Indoors. You don't really need a new fertilizer program. Just put some of the stuff you have been posting here on your plants and I think they will do well for you.
Marv

Hi igrowindoors,

If your plants are annuals, you could get away with your organic mix with very good results, given your indoor environment is good enough, having enough light. I have done that before.

But for woody plants, it's a big no no. I can't remember how many times I killed my gardenia by using those organic soil and other organic fertilizers. A mix with ingredients hard to break down is a must. But if you really want to go organic, you can always apply organic liquid fertilizer. You can buy Pure Blend Pro, which is derived from organic ingredients. Everything has been broken down and readily available for plants, but it's pricey, so you can make your own organic liquid fertilizer by fermenting. Put 1 kg of soy bean meal into 20 kg of water, seal and put it outside, after half a year, it's a perfect fertilizer for acid and Nitrogen loving plants. My There are other recipes for high P and high K. It's liquid, so it will not clog the roots. Manure and Guano is a no no, the only good results I get from them is to use on woody plants that I repot every year like fig and pomegrnate. They grow like there is no tomorrow in my organic water retentive mix, but I supplement liquid fertilizer along the way.

Good luck.

igroindoors... why would you come to a forum, then, to ask for information that you apparently already know? Isn't that a complete waste of your time? After reading your response, I can tell you it's been a complete waste of my time to respond to you.

If you know so much about growing under lights, and about growing indoors using organic methods, why would you come and ask others to help you adopt a fertilizer program?

Apparently, you've got it all worked out, so why even bother... unless... your intention is not to gain knowledge or receive advice, at all... but instead, to provoke others into a childish game of message board fighting.

Since you know so much already, I won't bother to waste anymore time on this thread. But just so you know, I grow healthy, beautiful plants indoors using my current light set-up and my chemical fertilizers.

Hi Jodi!
I agree with what you are saying! The poster claims to know it all and we know nothing, but yet is here asking questions! Odd!

I showed this to hubby last night, and he just sat here shaking his head and said that igrow is about as childish as they get!

He wasn't too impressed with the remark that had been removed either!

He saw Al as being a gentlemen and politely backing out.. and no, he's not a follower, he doesnt even garden! None of us are followers for that matter.
Just smart people making smart choices.

Well at least we know Igrow is a joke and we know not to waste time in the future with this poster.

Now I did learn one thing here , thanks Josh, good one! :)

>

Now I must get me some being that it's safe...:)

Lubadub~~ good one..:)

Jodi~ I've seen hundreds of your beautiful pictures of plants, Mike, Al, Josh and many others!! That's all I need to know what we use works!

I'll see you all around in better posts where the poster is really here to learn!

JoJo

Thanks Jojo and Jodik!

Here is some more for you to enjoy, all chemically fed. the ones I fed with organics only have all been long gone, dead..Sorry no pictures of those..
:-(
I provided a link for you and some copy and paste site to enjoy..
Here is just a few...

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/houseplt/msg1220293632660.html?46

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg121920579808.html?5

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg1109521515384.html?20

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/citrus/msg1109521515384.html?20

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/orchids/msg031742457401.html?9

Mike..:-)))))

Oooops sory 4 the spelling erorsss..:-)

You are such a tease Mike!

I'm snagging that tree when I come for the orchid! ROFL!!

JoJo

Mike, dude, those are beautiful. I can only hope my Dwarf Lime will someday look like that! =)

Jojo and Jodik ,

I really LOVE this post..I never saw anyone say that "organics" never work, did you guys? Or that they work as well if not better than "chemical"...But my understanding is that sometimes "organices" can, depending on what happens in a container, and sometimes not..

I am not willing to take that risk with my plants anymore. I am done with depending what happens in my containers, and playing God, "Mother Nature" to figure it out. I am not a follower of some diety, or leader, because I feel this way.

The insults around here are enough to make anyone spit, and I can tell you that "AL", a gracious human being is not one of them.

Thanks Al for setting a good example in kindness!

Hi Steve, and everyone else!

Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:06

About fertilizers: Plants do not care from where their elemental nutrition comes. Chemical forms of fertilizer are no better than organic are no better than chemical ..... with qualifications. Any organic molecule (basically - something containing carbon and that was once alive) will have its nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains that will require the aid of biotic soil populations to cleave (unlock). So, organic fertilizers depend on the population densities of soil microorganisms.

By nature, organic nutrient supplementation programs in container culture are unreliable and erratic in their ability to deliver nutrients. The reason why is simple: as noted, delivery of nutrients depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture. Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients and possibly inducing ammonium toxicity issues.

Chemical fertilizers, on the other hand, are extremely reliable & immediately available for uptake in elemental form. I offer this information from a physiological perspective only. You'll need to work out the organic/inorganic issue for yourself. I want to avoid that argument & adopt a 'to each his own' attitude about it, but it is much easier for me/most of us to help/guide those who use chemical forms of fertilizer because their problems are usually much easier to pinpoint.

From the perspective of minimizing potential problems, making sure that plants get all the nutrients they need - and even in the right ratio, w/o fertility levels getting too high, and results, I think fertilizers like Miracle-Gro, Osmocote, and other immediately soluble fertilizers win - hands down.

I know you asked for advice from organic growers, but I still thought you may wish to be armed with some info, in case you're not already set in your decision.

Take good care & good luck in the next growing season. ;o)

Al

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:55

Nice, thorough response, Al :-)) I was the one that directed Ellen here - knew she'd get better container info on this forum than on the Organics.
I have a question for you......have you tested or do you know how effective liquid organic formulations might be as a fertilizer source for containers? I'm thinking of the fish or kelp emulsions in particular or the fully soluble liquid products that are available through some organic suppliers (which I assume are also pretty similar in content to the other two, although I've not researched to confirm). As long as the product is fully soluble, a complete fert and contains at least some trace nutrients, won't they offer the same benefits as a soluble synthetic/chemical? And if so, wouldn't they be a suitable organic alternative for those growing numbers of container gardeners that adhere to organic gardening principles?

YPP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this?
see most clipped and recent clippings

Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 14:00

The thing is, that plants absorb nutrients molecule by molecule and though it looks like fish and seaweed emulsions are soluble - they aren't. When you mix them with water, they form a suspension of gigantic organic molecules that are much too large to pass through cell walls. They still require the activity of soil biota to break the molecules down into usable elements.
If soil biota is low, these elements remain in the soil or are only slowly digested. You can see deficiencies when there is more than enough of the deficient nutrient(s) in the soil, but they are just unavailable. You may get the idea that you need to fertilize again and again to correct symptoms, and that can be a problem. Since the organic fertilizers tent to more readily carry-over, you can apply fertilizer several times with no results, and when the cultural conditions in the soil next become favorable to soil biota, you get a massive release of nutrients and don't have a clue what happened.

I copy/pasted part of my reply above from another of my posts, so I'm not sure that I mentioned that trying to promote high soil biota populations to insure nutrient delivery can also quickly collapse soils because they feed on soil particles. I realize there is some movement in commercial container growing toward using teas & using other methods to promote soil biota, but if you notice, they are generally companies forced to do so to preserve their 'organic grower' status, or companies that specialize in bringing a crop to sale quickly, so rapid soil collapse never becomes an issue
Sorrrry 4 any spelng erors..:-)

Mike,
This is a great thread! Thanks for sharing this! I'm sure it will be alot of help to any new commers to this thread.

I too thought fish emulsion would work, but Al explained to me why it's not a good choice, so it's saved for the yard. :)

Smells like a lake when i'm done.. ROFL!

In past years, I always mixed compost 50/50 with what ever potting soil I used.. which was always a good one, high in organic matter.. and still no luck. Now , I know why, and will not go back...

Its all gritty for me this season.. :) and synthetic...

JoJo

I find lots of people have a misconception here that if the fertilizer is from organic source, it needs to break down in the container for plants to take. The breaking down process can occur outside of container, boiling and sealing in a container is a popular way to make liquid organic fertilizer. I have friends in South of China who solely use this liquid organic fertilizer on their bonsai. There are some plants that only responds well to organic fertilizers, such as Chinese Orchids (Chun Lan) and Osamanthus Fragrans. The best looking and most fragrant Osmanthus fragrans always fertilized with liquid from fermented pig manure.

It works, just lots of time and not that enjoyable to work with.

If you really want some clean and organic ready to use fertilizer, go to a hydroponics store, you would find lots of choices, but be ready to pay arms and legs for it.

In my opinion igrow isn't here to learn he is here to teach or force feed either way.It's best to take what you can get where you can get it.Try it if it doesn't work for you try something else.But one thing is for sure if you always bash the people trying to help eventually there isn't anyone left to get help from.We are all adults if you believe what someone else believes to each his own.Find your own way.

Much as I hate to bring back bitter memories of this thread, I was wondering- would hydrolyzed organic liquid fertilizer (such as the 2-4-1 hydrolyzed fish stuff mentioned in the first post) be a good compromise if I must use organic method (due to reasons beyond my control that I will not go into here) to grow vegetables in container? Hydrolyzed fish is touted by the sellers and manufacturers as being 100% soluble, not clogging drip irrigation, etc. So I assume this means the problems Al and other mention regarding organic "sludge" messing with aeration in the container medium would be avoided with this stuff, if what the marketing says about it is at all accurate.

Hi plantslayer..

I personally have always used Fish Emuslions, hydrolized fish, and the best, "cold pressed" "Neptunes Harvest" in years past..There may be some plants that respond well for a time, but then most will not..You may have to loose a few over time, to see for yourself as I had too..I lost 9 out of ten plants with that stuff as a sole fertilizer, along with every other organic fertilizer available..

When I was loosing mine rapidly, NO ONE was there to help me stop the decline with these products, in fact I was encouraged to stop using them by my local nuseries after examining the plants and roots on many of them.

I must admit,I was most stubborn to leave this fertilizer behind, even without the support to grow this way, except on my olive trees.lol...In fact I still use this stuff on just them..I have been told that they need NO fertilizer to perform well, so that may be why they don't mind solely relying on FE. I figure a bit of FE in the very open soilless mix I use won't clog anything up, especially at 1/2 tablespoon per gallon..

Most people I know find them very unreliable..
Hopefully you won't have to deal with the problems we had too, including fungus knats before you relalize this as many do, especially in a mix with lots of peat and organic materials that break down rapidly..
The fish will only further the rapid decomposement of these fine particles, the mix, which is something most like to avoid for a healthy root system, which should be precedent over fertilizer..What good is any fertilizer if the roots are rotting from a compacting mix?.. ..:-)

Don't be fooled although your plants will look great for a while. Don't be lulled into a false sense of security with FE.. Watch for any sudden decline in your plants, although for a time your plants may seem to respond well to this stuff.. Knowing this will help you to take action before it is too late..Being armed with this thread will help you to be well prepared for anything that comes up.

There is nothing wrong with bringing this thread up..There are a lot of great points to take away from here..:-)

Sorry, I was in a talkative mood..You seem like a very nice person to spend time with. If I was too see you face to face, I imagine having a great conversation with you over this..:-)

Good luck,

Mike