Jojo and Jodik , I really LOVE this post..I never saw anyone say that "organics" never work, did you guys? Or that they work as well if not better than "chemical"...But my understanding is that sometimes "organices" can, depending on what happens in a container, and sometimes not.. I am not willing to take that risk with my plants anymore. I am done with depending what happens in my containers, and playing God, "Mother Nature" to figure it out. I am not a follower of some diety, or leader, because I feel this way. The insults around here are enough to make anyone spit, and I can tell you that "AL", a gracious human being is not one of them. Thanks Al for setting a good example in kindness! Hi Steve, and everyone else! Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:06 About fertilizers: Plants do not care from where their elemental nutrition comes. Chemical forms of fertilizer are no better than organic are no better than chemical ..... with qualifications. Any organic molecule (basically - something containing carbon and that was once alive) will have its nutrients locked in hydrocarbon chains that will require the aid of biotic soil populations to cleave (unlock). So, organic fertilizers depend on the population densities of soil microorganisms. By nature, organic nutrient supplementation programs in container culture are unreliable and erratic in their ability to deliver nutrients. The reason why is simple: as noted, delivery of nutrients depends on the organic molecules being broken down in the gut of micro-organisms, and micro-organism populations are boom/bust, varying widely in container culture. Some of the things affecting the populations are container soil pH, moisture levels, nutrient levels, soil composition, compaction/aeration levels ..... of particular importance is soil temperatures. When container temperatures rise too high, microbial populations diminish. Temps much under 55* will slow soil biotic activity substantially, reducing or halting delivery of nutrients and possibly inducing ammonium toxicity issues. Chemical fertilizers, on the other hand, are extremely reliable & immediately available for uptake in elemental form. I offer this information from a physiological perspective only. You'll need to work out the organic/inorganic issue for yourself. I want to avoid that argument & adopt a 'to each his own' attitude about it, but it is much easier for me/most of us to help/guide those who use chemical forms of fertilizer because their problems are usually much easier to pinpoint. From the perspective of minimizing potential problems, making sure that plants get all the nutrients they need - and even in the right ratio, w/o fertility levels getting too high, and results, I think fertilizers like Miracle-Gro, Osmocote, and other immediately soluble fertilizers win - hands down. I know you asked for advice from organic growers, but I still thought you may wish to be armed with some info, in case you're not already set in your decision. Take good care & good luck in the next growing season. ;o) Al -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by gardengal48 PNW zone 8 (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 11:55 Nice, thorough response, Al :-)) I was the one that directed Ellen here - knew she'd get better container info on this forum than on the Organics. I have a question for you......have you tested or do you know how effective liquid organic formulations might be as a fertilizer source for containers? I'm thinking of the fish or kelp emulsions in particular or the fully soluble liquid products that are available through some organic suppliers (which I assume are also pretty similar in content to the other two, although I've not researched to confirm). As long as the product is fully soluble, a complete fert and contains at least some trace nutrients, won't they offer the same benefits as a soluble synthetic/chemical? And if so, wouldn't they be a suitable organic alternative for those growing numbers of container gardeners that adhere to organic gardening principles? YPP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RE: Organic gardening in a container clip this post email this post what is this? see most clipped and recent clippings Posted by tapla z5b-6a MI (My Page) on Sun, Mar 8, 09 at 14:00 The thing is, that plants absorb nutrients molecule by molecule and though it looks like fish and seaweed emulsions are soluble - they aren't. When you mix them with water, they form a suspension of gigantic organic molecules that are much too large to pass through cell walls. They still require the activity of soil biota to break the molecules down into usable elements. If soil biota is low, these elements remain in the soil or are only slowly digested. You can see deficiencies when there is more than enough of the deficient nutrient(s) in the soil, but they are just unavailable. You may get the idea that you need to fertilize again and again to correct symptoms, and that can be a problem. Since the organic fertilizers tent to more readily carry-over, you can apply fertilizer several times with no results, and when the cultural conditions in the soil next become favorable to soil biota, you get a massive release of nutrients and don't have a clue what happened. I copy/pasted part of my reply above from another of my posts, so I'm not sure that I mentioned that trying to promote high soil biota populations to insure nutrient delivery can also quickly collapse soils because they feed on soil particles. I realize there is some movement in commercial container growing toward using teas & using other methods to promote soil biota, but if you notice, they are generally companies forced to do so to preserve their 'organic grower' status, or companies that specialize in bringing a crop to sale quickly, so rapid soil collapse never becomes an issue Sorrrry 4 any spelng erors..:-)

MeyerMike is right, container citrus will need more frequent fertilizing than in-ground citrus, so Ideal, I would follow whatever schedule Mike is using for his container citrus if you're asking about that. I would LOVE to have mine look like his, so do what Mike does with container citrus. He's got it right. In ground citrus is a different process, and what lgteacher sent you is great info for in-ground, same with John's schedule, although I don't usually fertilize until February, as it just isn't really warm enough in January where I live. I fertilize my in-ground every 2 to 3 months starting in Feb and through Oct. I try to fert. before flower buds start to appear, and then after fruit set. That can vary from variety to variety, so sometimes it's hard to time that, as I'm just too lazy to come out a different times for different trees :-) Patty S.

Getting the pH right is important before you spend good money on fertilizer. If the pH is too high the micros will get tied up in the soil as metal oxides or carbonates and never become available to the plant (unless they are chelated, and alkaline soils require special chelators) If you know what is causing the high pH you might be able to treat it more effectively? Also pine needles or bark will eventually cause the soil to become more acidic. That aside you can use dilute phosphoric acid which provides soluble phosphorous to your plant, or you could use elemental sulfur which will slowly and safely acidify your soil. Also you could try ferrous or aluminum sulfate both which can quickly and less safely decrease the pH. If you have some vinegar you could dilute that when watering. However vinegar will not provide any nutrients to the plant, however this is both inexpensive and convenient if you have vinegar on hand. If you are worried about this in the future you could try soaking your potting mix in an acidic solution overnight to neutralize/acidify any alkaline components before you repot into it of course your should allow it to dry out and water with neutral water first so as to not expose the plant to acid directly. Good Luck, Mick

Let me clarify....I stir in some Oscomote plus into the top later of dirt in the Spring, I feed FP throughout, but less in winter. My trees come indoors for winter as I live in MD.