Yes my plan would be to put a very nice 5-starr range into the niche on the right hand side with two small pull out cabinets and a pot rail above it. Then the rest of the kitchen to do lower drawers only, with only two upper cabinets- one each on the left and right of the sink. There is also a separate pantry off to the right in the kitchen photo, between the niche and the back door entry, so it's not as tight on storage space as it looks.

Just generally, I don't think someone should tell you that you should not alter your home. Some people may believe it a travesty. They are as welcome to their own opinion as you are welcome to modify the home you bought and paid for and live in. Now YOU are asking for some additional input which I think is good so you can get some other input and someone might tell you your home would not be as marketable if you make certain changes. That's useful information to add to your knowledge base but, in the end, I suspect you would prefer your new home to suit your needs more than the concepts of others.

Ok, I'm done theorizing! I did want to add that you may wish to examine any wood you may need to remove. If it's salvageable, you might try repurposing it as trim or casing for your new opening. That way, you could make the kitchen/dining area better suit your needs AND reuse some of the original material in your plans.

My son lives in a house in Dublin that didn't have indoor plumbing when it was built over 100 years ago. No doubt some purist thought it ruined the original character when that was added!

I'd do what works for your family.

Honestly in a Sears kit house with trim that has already been painted, the millwork you have is pretty basic and easily duplicated so whatever modification you will be doing could be very seamless (other than the fact that the rooms are more open to each other than they were in 1908). If this were elaborately carved millwork that had never been painted, it might be a different story.

I grew up in a 150-year old Greek Revival farmhouse that had undergone many changes over it's life (and still is at more than 200 years of age.) The first home I ever owned was in the historic district in Lancaster PA. I proposed some changes to the rear of the home (not visible from the street) which generated some controversy. An older gentlemen on the architectural review board opined "we need to accept reasonable changes to adapt homes to the needs of the current owners." Amen. Where such changes don't alter the look-and-feel of the home from the street, I submit you have license to make them. You're paying the mortgage. You don't live in a museum.

Your house, your decision! We live in a foursquare with cased openings between most of the downstairs rooms, including the kitchen and dining room. It works well overall, but keep in mind that larger openinga have at least four effects. One, less wall space - which can be a drawback as it reduces room for kitchen cabinets and storage furniture. Two, it affects room flow; ideally rooms should have their openings near the corners to prevent travel paths from breaking up the room. The opening between our living and dining rooms is smack in the middle of the wall and the resulting path through the middle of the room acts to chop up the living room. Three, noise and cooking smells travel more easily from room to room. Four, the more you can see room A from room B, the more room B becomes visually part of room A; if you like distinct styles in different rooms (wallpaper, paint colors, etc.) this runs the risk of visual chaos.

A plus side of opening things up can be more even light, since the rooms borrow light from each other.

We had a house it was built in 1905 we actually put back molding larger baseboards etc but our style is contemporary I did not want to change it to a all contemporary space but this is the 21 st century do what you need to do to make this a home for your family always/

I think it would be helpful to see a full floor plan of the first floor to see if you idea is the best idea to achieve your goal. I think you should do what works. The interior looks like it’s been heavily altered already. If you need to remove the corner cabinets, save them as someone mentioned, or maybe try to use them on the other corners. Make sure that your proposed kitchen plan works with having one less wall.

Absolutely change the interior. As you mentioned, your home is not pristine and has already been modified over the years. Having a home that functions for your family is more important. As far as resale goes (if you care), not everyone is interested in purchasing a historical home, particularly if it has a poor floor plan for the way people live now.

“We are a family of 4 with youngish kids and the kitchen as it is now is very isolated, I would like for there to be more ability to have a conversation with someone sitting in the dining room.”

1. Think first about your reality: Do you envision your kids sitting in the dining room and conversing with you? Would they sit at a table? Will you wedge a comfy chair in there? Would they do homework at the table while you cook? Are they going to gravitate to a bedroom or other first floor hang out while you are cooking? Or could you end up opening the wall and having two rooms where you are still in solitude?

2. Think less severly about keeping things totally historically preserved (cause it already is not that) and less about totally ruining it with renovation. Find a happy medium where you don’t obliterate the current layout but adapt it somewhat.

3. You mentioned a back porch. Could you enclose it to make a small hang out and open up that wall partially for more connection to the kitchen?

Here’s a sears craftsman renovation with an open kitchen.

I think that if you do something closer to the above, respect the period - it will be an improvement over what you have now that was not at all done with any respect to the house itself.

Houses lived, changed and adapted to the needs of their inhabitants over time. Make intentional changes and enjoy living there.

The kitchen is very basic and vanilla and does not have the charm of the dining room. You spent a lot of money on your home and it should function at an acceptable level for you. You will be adding value by improving the function of the kitchen/dining spaces and by doing a kitchen that better matches the rest of the house. Don’t listen to anyone who doesn’t want things changed just for the sake of not changing things. If you have the money, you can do a better kitchen, and make it fit beautifully with the rest of the house and function better for you. This will add value to your house. 🙂

As mentioned above, I would post a floor plan. There are lots of creative and talented people on this site. (Be warned, some are a little abrupt and crabby.)

I wouldn't say opening up rooms always ruins old houses but it's often not done well.

In my neighborhood of 1900-1920s modestly sized houses the ones that had the dining room/kitchen walls removed seem much smaller ironically after removing the wall and they have no where to withdraw from family noise and clutter almost like an apartment loft rather than family home. If a house is under 2000 sq ft I often think removing walls adds to a claustrophobic feeling rather than expanding it.

Every home I've ever lived in, I entertained the thought of taking down a wall somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it is human nature to do that. In my last house, I converted my garage into a family room and built a detached garage. With the new family room in place, I didn't use the living room or dining room any more, because I had this great room attached to the kitchen to spend the bulk of my time. So it was a house with two major unused rooms that still needed to be heated, furnished and cleaned. In retrospect, I should have made the best of the rooms we already had.

Another example: My parents removed a wall in their kitchen and turned their adjoining dining room into a family room. Doing so, they destroyed the character of a century-old farmhouse. They already had a nice gathering room elsewhere in the house and they could have made their kitchen so much better if they just left the rooms as they were.

You'll save so much money remodeling the spaces as they exist now, and there is far less risk that you will mismanage the character of the home. Your current kitchen has a sink under the window, space for fridge, range and DW, However, you could probably use a nice sitting space of some sort, even if it is a single stool for visiting family members who want to chat while you cook, and it looks like more storage would also be nice. You could also lean into adding more character elements that would be typical of a Sears Craftsman's house. I would consider all those things first before contemplating taking down a wall.

There are plenty of ways to open a kitchen to a dining room while maintaining the historic character of the house. Aside from the corner cabinet, there's not much either in the kitchen or dining room of particular historic significance or aesthetic value that you need to worry about preserving.

The key to maintaining the historic charm and integrity of your house is using appropriate materials (real wood, real stone, handmade tile), hardware (unlacquered brass, real bronze, polished nickel, chrome), lighting, and decor and mirroring trim, window, and door styles and materials as closely as possible to the original. I just finished a project opening my kitchen to the dining room and I think the finished look was more historically appropriate than the 2000s-era closed off kitchen was and much more functional.

Just be advised that all costs more money than LVP, RTA thermofoil cabinets, quartz, and brushed "metal" finished hardware.

Save the dining room light fixture though...walls can be moved and rebuilt. Perfect old lights, not so easily.

Yes my plan would be to put a very nice 5-starr range into the niche on the right hand side with two small pull out cabinets and a pot rail above it.

The problem then is your cooktop is right in the pathway which is not the safest.

I agree seeing your photos that the dining room/kitchen have already been altered so it's not as critical in terms of keeping the look the same, although as suggested there may be ways to do it so it still respects the age of the house. (Those corner cabinets are probably from the 40's, not the early 1900's for example.)

Can you post a floor plan of the downstairs? We might have some other solutions for you if we see a measured 2d floor plan.

I don't have an actual floorplan of how it is currently...This is from the original floorplan but you can see the space limitations. Basically the downstairs bedroom and the dining room have been swapped since the original plan, pantry and closet are gone, and an addition was added with two bathrooms and an enclosed porch in back. I think those were all done in 1947, and the porch was enclosed in the 1950s.

There is a pantry on the walkway towards the stairs to the basement, right where it says "Entry". The oven niche is inset back against that wall.

But there really ARE no other walls you could open without moving the stairs or moving an exterior wall. Which if it has to stay closed off that's fine I guess. What I wanted was really just a space for one person or maybe two to sit and chat while one person cooks. Maybe we do just add a chair or mini island in the kitchen? It's just a fairly small space. Hopefully the pics and floorplan help.

We do plan on trying to doing a nice quality reno while hopefully respecting the home's history. I think I want wood cabinets (ideally all drawers) and soapstone countertops and backsplash behind the stove and integrated sink, brass cup pulls and we have a black 48inch 5 star range. (I may do painted wood cabinets if we can unearth wood flooring, otherwise I was going to do a white and black penny mosaic tile like what is found in the entryway of the home for the floors? ) Upper cabinets I was thinking glass panel doors or possibly just open shelving. If I could make room for a small island on wheels (with a barstool under it?) I would want one with a marble slab on top as I am a baker. Ceiling fan will go. I am open to suggestions though.

Been browsing for inspiration....I love this kitchen is mint green too crazy?

Victorian Kitchen · More Info

@janelle h I like that green! Soft greens were pretty common from the 20s-40s from what I have seen.

Have you read the very helpful post linked below?

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5972404/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-2020-interim#n=11

You should do it if you want to. I don’t think you need to justify it with a reason. These are different times, and the house has already been modified.

My house was built in 1958 by a locally famous architect. I modified the interior when I bought it. People think this is the original design, but it is not. It was multiple small rooms with walls, built in storage cabinets and hallways. Also, it had extensively dropped 7 foot ceilings. I took it all out and I love it now. I have views from the kitchen. The place is flooded with light. My dogs (and birds) can play while I keep an eye on them while having my morning coffee. They have lots of space to run (dogs) and wander about (birds). No one has ever told me I damaged the house. It’s your house and it should work for you. And you are being careful and considerate about it. That was one point people made about my changes and I always appreciated people saying it.

I love the mint cabinets! I so bady wanted to do mint cabinets in my house.

I also think that if you take that wall out, you may lose cabinet space on that specific wall, but you will have other advantages. You might put a small island there. Or extend cabinets along the adjacent wall by taking advantage of the new space created from removing the closet.

People lived differently 100 years ago. The kitchen was way back, hidden away because there probably was a housekeeper who did the cooking and cleaning. Separating family spaces from the help's space made sense. Preserving that for the sake of authenticity makes no sense.

My house is 100 years old. It's had a lot of changes over the years. Believe me, I don't regret the fact it's no longer full of too many, too small rooms. I don't regret that there are now stairs to a basement with a cement floor, rather than a trap-door to a dank, dirt-floored basement.

You have a 48" wide stove? Is it a classic or new stove?

Can you measure every inch of that kitchen and the bedroom/now dining room? Get some graph paper to measure it all.

How do you enter the house from the back?

How does one enter the bedroom on the left? Is that the master?

The 48" wide stove is in her inspiration picture. She has a 30" wide gas cooktop. (See posted pics under OP)

A couple tips, having owned a Victorian farmhouse built in 1900 with all original woodwork unpainted! When you tackle wall changes you will potentially run into municipality regulations that cause you to bring all electric and plumbing up to current code. Will be very expensive and time consuming. We decided to live there a while and found we rather liked the separations although there was a small kind of pass through window between the kitchen and large dining room. We converted the dining room into a TV room and had room in the kitchen for large round table for 4 kids and the two of us. It worked very well. It was a very large home so each child had their own bedroom to escape to and we had ours with a study downstairs off the dining room/TV room. So wait a while and see what your needs and budget is for these potentially major projects. Best of luck. It’s an adventure!

The present kitchen is doing no favors to the historic nature of your home. Some would lean into a modern restoration. With the correct KD I think you could do your old home justice and get the flow you want. The mint green is lovely for walls but not wood/mill work. It kills the historic nod. The colored cupboards fad will just not hold up and you will be wanting to paint them white before your bank account recovers!

Would it be possible to think of the enclosed porch being used differently or ‘upgraded’ to connect better to offer the seating area you wish? Maybe try adding a sitting chair now to see if it attracts your family to the kitchen. If it is possible to use the porch area,or rethink the porch area, a sitting area might work better with the feeling of the home over opening up.

Yes we have a 48" black gas stove, brought from our previous home we would like to use in the renovated kitchen. We don't have to I suppose but it's an expensive stove 😂 and I doubt we will get our money's worth if we sell it! I think this is the one. I love that kitchen chinacatpeekin! I'll work on a better floorplan though it may be a couple weeks before I get it. You enter the bedroom from the living room. We use it as an office/ lounge as there is another master upstairs. The back door is through the enclosed patio. And yes, current kitchen must go. I don't actually have much wood or millwork but I guess we could add it. I'm not likely to completely restore that as it's expensive and the white trim doesn't bother me. I was just thinking if we can rescue the wood floors underneath the peel& stick then idk if I would also want wood cabinets. I know that's maybe most historical but since there isn't that much wood elsewhere I think it might look silly to have one room perfectly restored and everywheee else in the house with painted wood. My stove is black, there isn't a ton of natural light, I hate white and grey for cabinets...so I was thinking a color, but light. Or maybe light wood but depends how the floors look. If floors are not salvageable we will probably put down mosaic tile and then cabinets can be wood. Countertops I want soapstone but would consider marble instead if it's too dark.

Oh and the plumbing and electrical is already updated/ to code. The previous owners finished out the basement apartment and redid all that. I don't think there is room for a table and chairs unfortunately without blocking the walkways. And the enclosed patio is not heated and

is quite a narrow space. We would use it for mudroom and plants and cat box, but not sure it's worth the effort to add heating and/ or some kind of seating solution there.

Beautiful. Having electrical and plumbing updated to code is fantastic. With that information, definitely go ahead and reno kitchen. I will watch for better layout drawing. It’s all about reno budget limits now. Sure would work hard getting that range programmed in. Gorgeous. Budget saver, instead of soapstone, go look at slabs of Virginia Mist granite “honed”. Very similar look and easy to maintain plus around 25% less expensive. I think painted cabinets would look great with that. A pale sage green looks fabulous! Did a kitchen a couple years ago like that. Black hardware with gold details. This client had white appliances but black range would have been gorgeous. They wanted to keep basic existing footprint and plan to build in a few years so we worked to keep costs low. They did opt for soapstone.

Hubby hung pendants too high. Going to replace those this year.

I have a 12” over hang at the end of a cabinet run with a counter height chair. It takes up such little space and is one of the most used places in our house. Love that my husband can sit and hang out with me while I cook. I eat lunch there, get work done on my laptop there.

I bet the kitchen gurus on here can get seating for at least on in your kitchen when you post your floor plan including all surrounding rooms.

Moving island cart is not useful without enough space to move it around.

Curious how often you use all 5 or 6 burners at once.

It all comes down to budget. You can pay pros 150-250K to do all of the work needed to move all the walls, with electrical and ducts, and plumbing, and structural supports, and change everything. Or you can spend 100K+ and do all the labor yourself, presuming one of you is a construction professional. Or you can aim to move as little as possible, to keep the costs under control.

There is exactly 0 chance that a 48” range with a 54” hood will actually fit into that small house. The costs of a make up air system for something that are not inconsiderable as well. It will already be enough $$$ for a 30” pro style cooker.

We already have the 48" stove. Hence why trying to include it. I thought nich because niche is 62 inches wide, and we could also squeeze a couple more inches there on each side for spice racks

You are not understanding a whole lot about how your ideas translate to the real world of construction and structural costs, plus all the MEP change consequences. You are costing yourself a lot of money by not involving professionals who do understand those consequences to those ideas. And who understands how to create a functional and usable kitchen space.

Everything starts with an accurate ”as built” architecturally measured floor plan of the whole home. The first thing I see is the closet pantry on the corner of the house is blocking light, and reducing storage, rather than adding to it. But this is not an ”as built” plan, with all the dimensions. Work on doing that as the very foundation to thinking about beginning anything. You cannot even have good ideas without those measurements.

Out of curiousity... do you know why your home is on the historic register? I can understand if were an untouched 1908. But if there were additions in the 40's-50's, that would have already altered the exterior. Did someone have the house added in, or was it included in a historic zoning at a date after the additions? Or something else?

The 48" wide stove is in her inspiration picture. She has a 30" wide gas cooktop. (See posted pics under OP)

I see it now. Thanks.

We don't have to I suppose but it's an expensive stove 😂 and I doubt we will get our money's worth if we sell it!

To the OP. Your kitchen really is not big enough for a 48" stove which will require a 52" hood. You need storage and space to prep. I wouldn't go larger than a 36" stove. Of course you'll never get back what you paid for it, but you'll get a pretty penny for it most likely.

I'll work on a better floorplan though it may be a couple weeks before I get it.

Well if I'm not around hopefully Beuhl, Jan or Rebunky can help. (Traveling for over 3 weeks.)

I don't actually have much wood or millwork but I guess we could add it. I'm not likely to completely restore that as it's expensive and the white trim doesn't bother me.

I built a new craftsman style house and when I priced out natural woodwork, I wound up using painted wood. And know that painted wood was a thing too. My first house was a 1927 bungalow in the craftsman style and we bought from the original owner's daughter. I asked what kind of wood was the woodwork and her comment was that she didn't know because it had always been painted.

I know that's maybe most historical but since there isn't that much wood elsewhere I think it might look silly to have one room perfectly restored and everywheee else in the house with painted wood.

Regarding that, I wound up putting white wood cabinets in my kitchen. Again both were used back in the day. In fact white was considered more "sanitary". But a color would work too. Don't let anyone talk you out of it.

If floors are not salvageable we will probably put down mosaic tile and then cabinets can be wood.

Look into Marmoleum for the floors. Definitely what most kitchen floors were back in the day.

We already have the 48" stove. Hence why trying to include it. I thought nich because niche is 62 inches wide, and we could also squeeze a couple more inches there on each side for spice racks

That means you only have 14" for counter space, or 7" on either side so where will you put your condiments, spoons, bowls, etc? Sorry but the math does not work for your kitchen.

Chinakatpeekin, gorgeous kitchen!

Years ago I restored an old English style home and lived there. The neighbor across the street gutted their classic Spanish home and opened the interior up to such an extent that you felt like you were in a modern home. All the character was gone. It was nicely done but jarring to step inside because the exterior was still clearly 1930's Spanish. Everyone said they ruined it but everytime that house comes on the market it sells immediately. I think lots of people like the look of the outside of a historic home but don't want to pretend to like living in the past with small choppy rooms, although some do.

^ i see this a lot in my neighborhood also

FWIW i think it’s nice to have an overall philosophy - for our reno/addition it was “everything wood matched the original house (hardwoods, big baseboards, matched crown, classic cabs, true divided light windows etc) and everything metal leaned modern (cab hardware, faucets, hood)“ the idea is the next owner could change a few things and have a more traditional kitchen but in the meantimes if felt fresh to us

Yes to be honest I wasn't planning on this particular post being the entire kitchen redesign, just wanted to know whether it would be ok to open that wall before I start playing too much with floorplan...hence why I don't have the floorplan yet. The niche I think there is a few more inches in the wall that we could add to have more counter space either side of stove, plus the griddle has a panel that covers it and we used often as additional counter space. Once I have a floorplan if we truly can't fit it then so be it but it doesn't seem impossible yet! The house is only historical because it's in a historic district and the exterior is unique. The historic rules only apply to the outside areas. I think the addition was done in 1950 before it was on the registry, the front and two sides of the house are stone look concrete blocks, the back wall is wood siding where the addition was added ( not visible from the street).

Are you using the old dining room/new bedroom? Can you take that wall down to add space?

I walked into an brokers open years ago, a small beautiful Spanish style home that was just an untouched jewel box. It was being sold by the ex-wife of the owner at the time, for way under market at $350k. Never let your ex sell your house!

A friend of mine had just said to me that if I ever see a small character house for him to let him know. I called him immediately and told him to come see this house. He said he couldn't leave work. I said, "I have your house you need to come now... 'right now!'." Lucky for him, he did. He put in an offer that morning and got the house!

A number of years later he was featured on This Old House as he added a period appropriate 750 sqft addition. He added a family room on the back that was adjacent to a bigger open kitchen, it had the historic details of the rest of the house. It was a nice well-proportioned addition. He also gained a view of the lake by going a little out of character, the pay off was great.

If you can find the two episodes I think it was nice way to update and keep the character of the place. https://www.thisoldhouse.com/los-angeles-house/21017409/los-angeles-house

That would be ideal if possible.

But without detailed plan, can’t help much. I was thinking of opening the kitchen to dining room and creating large kitchen with eating area. Hope you can post a sketch of the first floor and print in black the dimensions of each wall, widths of doors and openings. It’s the only way we can roughly estimate a layout to consider with local architect for on site investigations and assessments along with ballpark costs to even see what might be doable. Not a simple project at all but done right could be amazing!

HU-238451843 I suggest youactually read through the thread

The Op said the hiuse is a foursquare which is a two story home.

She also said what is labeled dining room is the bedroom and what is labeled bedroom is the dining room

And she mentioned how the electrical is updated

Lol y'all need to calm down :) If you look at the original question, I was just thinking whether I could knock the wall down. I keep adding info as people request it, but no, I'm not about to just start knocking out walls tomorrow! I would need to find out if it's load bearing too before I move forward. And I'm also not completely new to renovations, but seeing as I'm still very much in the " thinking about what I want" fun phase I don't have actual plans available. I'm out of town at the moment. But it's two floors plus a basement.

On instagram i saw this woman with an incredible workaround to increase cabinet space in the kitchen while improving the flow between the dining room and kirchen I’ll try to attach a screenshot or two below i coils see rhis working in your space!

I live in a 1910 kit home and we debated the same thing and decided to keep the kitchen and dining separate. We did/do have an eat in kitchen so we rarely use the dining room.

We did a full gut reno in 2021 and we did convert a smaller bedroom to a laundry room adjacent to the kitchen and added the mudroom and original pantry to the kitchen to make it larger. We relocated the pantry and recovered the original floors underneath layers of linoleum and subflooring.

I was able to go with custom cabinets that maximized ever inch of usable space. We did save all the original millwork and reused it around the doors and windows. Funny thing is it was all labeled on the back so no guesswork involved. Nice thing about owning a kit home.

We have tried to keep the original integrity as much as we could while still being practical about our lifestyle demands. Interestingly enough, open concept kitchens are fading in popularity.