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sarah_m78

David Austin roses in Massachusetts

S M
4 months ago
last modified: 4 months ago

Hello, I'm wondering if you could please share your experiences with (and photos of) growing David Austin roses in Massachusetts 6b. I'm constantly looking for new information. Thanks in advance.

Comments (46)

  • floraluk2
    4 months ago

    Maybe try the Rose Forum.

  • kitasei2
    4 months ago

    I am in New York and will say that my David Austin roses are never really black spot resistant. I now stick to Kordes.

    S M thanked kitasei2
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  • rwiegand
    4 months ago

    All of ours would be dead sticks. We're allegedly 6b, but the only roses we can keep alive consistently are the Canadian Explorer series. Different story at the south end of town five miles away where they can grow both more delicate roses and not freeze the flowers off their hydrangeas nine years out of ten. There is frequently a 5+ degree temperature gradient over that distance. It's important to see what grows in your immediate neighborhood with similar exposure, I don't find the hardiness zones helpful here, pretty much nothing rated for zone 6 will survive the winter in our yard.

  • mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
    4 months ago

    Let us spray.

    S M thanked mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    Thank you all for your comments. It seems as though growing roses is tough for many around here. Thanks also mad_gallica for your response....I see your responses in many topics I research, and I always trust what you have to say.

  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    I just love roses. My first rose at my current house was a D.A. Gertrude Jekyll about 10 years ago, and I have had pretty good luck with it. She is very thorny, and her leaves look a bit ragged towards the end of the summer. However, her first flush is AMAZING. Because of her, I've bought 11 other types of D.A. roses. They are only a few years old, and so I cannot get a true reading on them. I'm really excited to see what my mature Wollerton Old Hall is going to look like covering a fence in the front of our house. This will be either its third or fourth year, and she is finally fanning out like G.J. I am hoping this is the year she will be beautiful! Most of the pictures people post of W.O.H. are closeups. I would really love to see pictures of your D.A. roses in the design landscape. I also don't see many people in my area growing roses, and so it's hard to get information. I would love to hear what you have to say about David Austin roses growing in Massachusetts. Thanks again.

  • Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    I have yet to grow Olivia Rose, recommended as the go to rose for black spot resistance. Lady of Shallott is a DA rose reported to be highly black spot resistant. I hope to put LoS in this coming spring, and Olivia Rose is on my short list.

    Having grown quite a number of DA roses over the years and having watched their performance in other's gardens, I have found them to be very susceptible to heavy black spot defoliation by midsummer.

    Since your zone, 6b, is essentially the same as mine, I would expect DAs to be a poor bet unless you want to spray routinely for black spot. If you like Olivia Rose and/or Lady of Shalott, may I suggest you start with these two and see what comes next. Maybe you will find them black spot free, which would be great.

    My most critical points otherwise on David Austins is that so many of them have weak necks resulting in nodding blooms, a big no-no in rainy summer climates like ours. Secondly, repeat bloom can be scanty.

    Moses

  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    Thank you Moses for your response. I actually grow Olivia rose. This past summer was her third year although she didn't get off to a good start. In March of her second year, the rabbits nibbled almost all of her canes. I needed to put her in a cage, which was at first too small and then enlarged this past summer. She does seem to be very BS resistant; however, she does also tend to nod a little too much for me to say that I love her. Once again, I am just learning about her growing habits, and I may come to love her. L.O.S. looks divine! There is a lady, Olga carmody, on YouTube who does a great job letting the audience understand what she looks like.

  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    Kitasei and rwiegand, maybe I need to try Kordes and the Canadian Explorer series. Do they have pale pinks, my favorite rose colors? Do they have a scent?

  • Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    SM, may I suggest Bliss, a Kordes rose which is also an ADR winner. I have had my three, one for three years now and the two for two years and boy are they exceptional. Vigorous, abundant blooms of pale pink, with fragrance. No black spot at all and winter hardy without protection just about to their tips, makes them so easy to care for. If I could grow just one pale pink rose, it would be Bliss. My second choice would be a Meilland rose, Pinkerbelle, (a goofy name), but a dynamo of a rose. It is pale pink with a darker pink edge, super vigorous and super fragrant. Black spot flees from it.

    Moses

  • kitasei2
    4 months ago

    Moses I’m glad you stepped up here because I was hesitating to come out swinging for Kordes when it comes to color. Many of them are cheap looking to me. Bubblegum pinks and fire engine reds. There are exceptions, like Quicksilver which is a lovely lavender gray, like old fashioned lingerie. But when it comes to health and vigor, for me they have no equal.

  • rosesmi5a
    4 months ago

    If you are looking outside the range of David Austin roses, I'd recommend Dr.Griffith Buck's rose Quietness -- pale pink, super hardy, disease free here, fragrant, blooms all summer...It is one of the best in my garden!

  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    Hi Moses, thanks for the response. I looked up the roses you suggested and I loved the beauty of Bliss. Is the entire name "Perfuma Bliss?" If so, she is stunning. Do you have any pictures of her? If not, no worries. Thanks again.

  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago

    Rosesmi and Kitasei, the Dr.Griffith Buck's rose "Quietness" and the Kordes rose "Quick silver" are beauties too! I've never researched anything other than D.A. roses, and now I am highly considering something else. Thanks so much! P.S. I would love to see some of your pictures if you have any available.

  • S M
    Original Author
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Hello again Moses, just a funny coincidence I wanted to share with you. I just looked up the meaning of ADR since I don't know anything about it, and I clicked on a houzz discussion that you started 3 years ago. The other interesting thing is that it rang a bell because I remembered reading it way back when (& then forgetting I had). You've given me some food for thought! Thanks again!

  • Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    SM, Yes, the full name is Bliss Parfuma, sorry for any confusion.

    My favorite rose is Quietness, but it does have two faults that make its recommendation a third choice. 1. Black Spot resistance is almost excellent, but both Bliss Parfuma and Tinkerbelle are almost cast iron, on a level above any Knock Out, and a step above Quietness' black spot resistance. Don't worry, grow Quietness by all means, but it is just a step below BP and T. 2. Quietness drops its petals a bit too soon. Good that it cleans itself of petals (still needing standard dead heading), but 3-4 days before petals disappear in the heat of summer is 3-4 days too soon, IMHO, for Quietness to be a near perfect rose.

    My favorite rose is Quietness, but it does have two faults that make its recommendation a third choice.

    1. Black Spot resistance is almost excellent, but both Bliss Parfuma and Tinkerbelle are almost cast iron, on a level above any Knock Out, and a step above Quietness' black spot resistance. Don't worry, grow Quietness by all means, but it is just a step below BP and T.

    2. Quietness drops its petals a bit too soon. Good that it cleans itself of petals (still needing standard dead heading), but 3-4 days before petalpetals disappear in the heat of summer is 3-4 days too soon, IMHO, for Quietness to be a near perfect rose. The near perfect rose should hold its petals in the heat of summer for 7-8 days, and the bloom look presentable all those days.

    Not many roses meet this goal, but I have found Quicksilver just about meeting this goal, quite remarkable. Quicksilver can be grown as a large shrub. It does not need to be grown as a climber. A nice 5' end of season height on a mature bush after a nice shortish spring pruning of Quicksilver should do the trick.

    Moses

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Here in Massachusetts, I grow organically, so I won't use any kind of spray on roses or anything else. For a long time I avoided growing roses although they are my favorite flower, simply because I thought it would be too difficult to grow them organically. But I broke down and bought a few, probably 3 or 4 David Austins among them. They did not work out for me. I had blackspot and thripes. I would manage to keep them healthy enough through their first flush of bloom, but after that it was all downhill. And the foliage would look so bad, I couldn't look at it any more and I would cut them back to no foliage on the canes. I was prepared that they would not survive this treatment in the middle of summer.

    One of them did and would keep growing back and be a small bush before Winter and the next year it would come back pretty healthy and give me a good first flush of bloom before deteriorating. After repeating this same kind of solution for 4 years, the rose was not performing well at all and it was time to remove it. I suppose though, if you wanted to use David Austin as a 'disposable' rose, you could do that. They usually were pretty good in the beginning of the season, starting to bloom here about June 1st. And I think there are a few more David Austins that are said to be bred for healthy. I haven't tried them all.

    Since then, I spent a lot of time researching 'no spray' roses. And started to buy only those that had the best reputations for healthy vigorous plants. I found rose growers that prioritized these types of roses and bought them mail order as bare roots. I've had a lot of success doing that. So now I don't have one David Austin in my garden and I won't buy them any more. But I do have five roses that are great performers, fragrant, all but one are repeat blooms and all are very healthy. I would have more if I had room for them here.

    S M thanked prairiemoon2 z6b MA
  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    4 months ago

    What are those roses, prIriemoon?


    S M thanked Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
  • User
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    I used to garden in Ontario (CA) and now in western Oregon, and I have yet to meet a David Austin rose that isn't a martyr to Blackspot. I quit trying new varieties because they all suffered moderate to severe foliage loss due to the disease.

    Mind you, I haven't grown anything newer than 'Benjamin Britten' (horrible rose in every way, IMO), so I can't speak to the health of newer cultivars.


    "‘New Dawn’, wow, I'm sick about losing it. It was great. Healthy healthy rose. I don't think I ever saw a diseased leaf on it. I will most likely replace it but I wonder if the rose I bought from Pickering was special."


    Yes, it was special. In what way? People seem to forget (or weren't aware) that Pickering was diligent about keeping virus out of their inventory. They budded 95% of their roses to seed-grown R. multiflora, so you never, ever introduced virus from infected rootstock (unlike many nurseries here in the USA who use infected 'Dr. Huey' - and that includes Austin USA). Pickering produced the highest quality product you could buy. Such a shame Joel packed it in.

  • Jadae
    4 months ago

    Pickering was amazing. Not only for what Paul said, but they made amazing grafts. Very little excess shank is more root space for the richest part of the soil.


    This is my Elina in 2017 from Pickering circa 2007. https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.279956


    Absolute beast.


    I have a Sympathie and Dreaming Spires by Pickering taking care of themselves at my friend's farm. Zero human touch and growing at the wayside of the estate, tons of blooms.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Paul, thank you for the confirmation that the David Austins were blackspot magnets. I was trying not to be too negative, [g] iin part because it's been a long time since I grew them and going to their website seeing 13 roses they consider particularly healthy and I'd not tried any of them. I do think I gave them a good try, really.

    As for the 'New Dawn' from Pickering, the way i meant special is that I would not have believed that a rose could grow without any foliage issues, year after year. And I thought I might need to credit Pickering with the health of the plant due to their growing practices that you've explained. The rest of what is special about New Dawn, I credit to it's genetics. I am a low energy gardener, so as enthusiastic as I am, I have to streamline what I do in the garden and some things get neglected at times. I love climbers of all kinds but structures to grow them on, are always at the bottom of the list. But impulsively I bought the New Dawn,intending to put a structure over the front door for it. Never happened. lol So I stuck it in the ground along a 4ft section of fence and I never got around to moving it. And I bought other vines and planted them there too, 'temporarily'. And it grew there in maybe 6hrs of sun with some shade from Spruce trees, and very close to the root zone of the spruce trees. I did keep it watered when it needed it but that was it. I never fertilized it. And despite all that and my neglect, it grew and bloomed beautifully. When we tried to dig it out because we were replacing the fence, I couldn't believe the soil it was growing in. FILLED with tree roots! It's not the most fragrant but fragrant enough and a nice fragrance. It's not the most exciting color and doesn't have a repeat bloom for me, or heavy petaled blooms, but I have really enjoyed that rose. It's also quite vigorous.


    Paul, I hope my next rose is one of yours. Everytime, Sheila posts photos of hers, I can't wait to get one!

    Jadae, that 'Dreaming Spires' is a pretty yellow!

  • Jadae
    4 months ago

    Yes, many DA's are blackspot prone. Geoff Hamilton, Jude the Obscure, and Jubilee Celebration were not for me. However, GH has slow rebloom, JtO is a massive monster. JC is about optimal for the class imo.


    Dreaming Spires is a very unique yellow climber. Not only is it robust and free blooming, the blooms are huge, very fragrant, and a color not usually found in yellows. They are yellow overlaid with honey-ochre, and the male parts are bright red. No idea how hardy it is, but winter snaps here never affect it.

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Here it is on HelpMeFind....

    Dreaming Spires on HelpMeFind

    Looks like it is hardy from 6b to 9b. It really sounds pretty Jadae. And robust, free blooming, bright red stamens? sounds really nice.

  • Jadae
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    It is. I remember getting 'Scent from Above' when it was brand new, growing it out, and thinking, "This isn't even the dollar store version of 'Dreaming Spires'". No comparison. DS was superior in ever way, except maybe 1/4 open bloom shape.

  • Diane Brakefield
    4 months ago

    We were zone 6a until 2012, and many gardeners in this area still swear our winters are that zone. Here in the desert hills outside Boise, I think we are what we have been assigned, zone 7a, but we have the rare much colder winters still, and these test the wimps and expose them. Our winter 2016-17 was definitely a zone fiver with temps to -20F. I'm saying all this to make my case for DA's Tamora, if you can find her. I've grown her for many years and she was from Pickering, grafted on multiflora rootstock. I consider her to be one of my top Austins and a continuous bloomer. And wonder of wonders, she stays her predicted size, my smallest Austin, except for Twig Darby. Diane

    Tamora

    September

    June

    July

    July


    S M thanked Diane Brakefield
  • berrypiez6b
    4 months ago

    Exquisite

  • Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    prairiemoon, I don't spray, so I'm always looking for healthy roses. New Dawn is my favorite climber. Even though it gets only three hours morning sun, it still blooms a lot. It's incredibly vigorous that I cut off 2/3 every July and leave only one or two main stems for our small porch. It's also healthy here except for some powdery mildew in our rainy fall.


    As for DA, Queen of Sweden and Olivia are perfectly clean in my high shade backyard. They are both superstars in the shady area (less than 2 hours direct sun).




    My other very healthy roses are Garden Delight, Dee-Lish, Cream Veranda, Eifelzauber, Pomponella, South Africa, Poseidon, Bliss Parfuma, Le petit Prince, Marianne (Paul's hybrid Gallica), Doctor Robert Korns, Ispahan, Lynnie, Arctic Blue, Lion's Fairy Tale, Darlow's Enigma, Earth Angel, Rose de Rescht, Marie Pavie, Grandbaby, Perle d'Or, and most of the Rugosas. ^_^

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Diane, I really do like the size of Tamora and the fact it is continuous bloom. It’s a very cute form. But could you clarify her status as far as blackspot goes? Do you have the threat of blackspot where you are and have you had any on that rose?

    Feiy, Is that first photo New Dawn? It’s very pink?! I’m glad to know she blooms for you in part sun too. That second photo with the very cupped blooms - is that Olivia or Queen of Sweden? Very pretty!

    Nice list of healthy roses, I see you have one of Paul’s on your list. I’ll have to check it out.

  • Diane Brakefield
    4 months ago

    We have no blackspot here on anything--too dry. Diane

  • Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)
    4 months ago

    prairiemoon the shadier the pinker? LOL. I absolutely love how the silver-pink hue of New Dawn brightens up our front porch, not to mention its wonderful scent that always makes us smile when we come in and out. Most of my roses are in shady area. I found I kind of like it since the bloom colors are richer and subtler. They might bloom less than those ones in full sun, yet they do last much longer.

    The second pic is Queen of Sweden. She is a tall girl. Upright habit. I train her as a short climber and she responses well.

    Marianne is healthy, vigorous with strong fragrance. She reaches 3.5' in the second year from a small band. According to Paul it doesn’t suck, which is great for a small garden! You probably don't want to miss it.


    My ownroot Tamora is a pretty little thing. Unfortunately it gets blackspot here. It's not serious enough to cause complete defoliation, but I think that affects its vitality somewhat.


  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Feiy, that is an amazing amount of bloom on that New Dawn in a small amount of sun! What do you have that growing on over your door? That is a wide arching structure? Looks great!

    Thanks for the photo of Marianne, I think this time around I'm going to go for the reds and the violets, but it is very pretty. Right now I only have different shades of pinks and apricots and one yellow.

  • Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)
    4 months ago

    prairiemoon Those are just two square steel pipes that I had someone install under the eaves three years ago. You can see them better in the photo from last September, as well as some fall blooms after July pruning.

    New Dawn had been there when we bought the house. it was getting bigger and bigger and in desperate need of support. Interestingly, it is the reason I started to be interested in roses. It is my starting point, so I always have a special affection for it.


    New roses are always exciting! What’s on your pocket list? ^_^

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    4 months ago

    Babbitt That is how it was with my new dawn, it came with the house. I also have a sentimental feeling for her because of that and I've used her to propagate. Mine is original from the 1,930s. And still going strong!

  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Feiy, that was a very clever way of adding support. It must be very sturdy too. It makes an exciting entry. Believe it or not, at the moment, I don't have a list. [g] The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head, is a red, or a violet red rose, by Paul Barden, that Sheila had in a post not too long ago, but I'd have to go back and find it for the name. I haven't really had room for a new one for awhile, so I don't torture myself. lol

    Vaporvac, wow, from the 1930s! That is amazing stewardship! I still have a few shrubs on my property that are from the 1950s that I really love, but there were no roses on the property when we moved in. I love having something with that history. You are smart to have propagated it. I wish I had done that. Never got around to it. I'm going to have to make it a higher priority to learn to do that.

    Gosh, all of a sudden it is POURING outside! It sounds like a freight train. It rained last Monday too. Supposed to get high winds and rain all day today. I wish it were snow instead. I don't know why in recent years, every time we are about to have precipitation in the winter months it often warms up and we get rain. Last year, I think we only had to pay for snow removal once.

  • Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
    4 months ago

    I can try to do that for you if you like. I'm trying that with many roses over the winter and could try and cut 1 off in the next few days unless it gets really cold. Whoever, even that shouldn't stop me from trying.

  • Feiy (PNWZ8b/9a)
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Vapor, There is always a special plant in every gardener's heart. ^_^

    prairiemoon, New Dawn is very easy to root. I stuck the cuttings directly into my sandy soil from November to March, and the rooting rate was 100%. In the past three years, I gave away more than ten pots of its rooted cuttings to neighbors and friends. (It is really popular.) You might as well give it a try.

    BTW, I guess that red/violet rose you're looking for is Diablo Hawk.


  • User
    4 months ago

    "The only one that comes to mind off the top of my head, is a red, or a violet red rose, by Paul Barden, that Sheila had in a post not too long ago"


    That would be "Angry Juno", I expect.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    My "Angry Juno" from Paul is more on the red/violet spectrum than "Diablo Hawk" which is a gorgeous crimson.


  • summersrhythm_z6a
    4 months ago

    New Dawn is easy to root here too. But they are the first ones to get vole damage. I have lost 12 New Dawns and 6 White Dawns to voles at my old garden in NY. New Dawn became huge monsters in PA’s garden, I have to cut them down hard. I have to kill them next spring, they became too big. One is eating the deck, other two are too close to a walkway, I am afraid their huge roots are too close to carriage house foundation. Learn from my mistakes, do not plant these monsters close to a house or a deck.

    S M thanked summersrhythm_z6a
  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    I just got my power back on, it went out about 3 hours ago with all the wind and it's been raining all day. We've had at least 5 inches of rain so far.

    That is a very pretty color - 'Angry Juno'. And I do like crimson too sometimes, and I love that name 'Diablo Hawk'. There must be a good story behind that name. [g] Thank you, Paul!

    Sheila, the rose I am thinking of....I went looking for the thread I saw it on earlier today and I didn't see it yet. But it was in a pot. And I have this vague recollection that it might not have been named yet? Or am I imagining that? [g] And it might have been new to you.

  • Moses, Pittsburgh, W. PA., zone 5/6, USA
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Getting back to SM's original question. It may take some digging, which to me is part of the happy challenge of growing roses, and by digging, it's investigating all the available information you can find before you take the plunge into purchasing a new rose.

    Concerning Austin roses, really, only information from rose gardeners who garden under the same 6b, Massachusetts, hot and humid summers, black spot 'ground zero' conditions is relevant. That being said, Austin did not breed specifically for black spot immunity. There are no Austin roses that are ADR winners, not one. Whether he never entered a rose in the trials or did and they all failed, I do not know. Many rose houses have won ADR designations for their rose introductions. Kordes and Meilland are the two that are frequent ADR rose winners.

    Here's what I would do. If you see an Austin rose you like, scour the Internet for a lookalike that has verifiable black spot resistance, especially onen designated an ADR winner. When you find it, you will be glad you did all the work necessary in discovering it. Or, get the Austin rose you liked and resign yourself to having to spray it for black spot for it to thrive.

    Moses.

  • Jadae
    4 months ago

    I have a feeling Austin never entered ADR in the first place because he invented an entirely new market. All of the other major growers were like, "Hey, lets see that, but less plant and more health." They all said okay, but Kordes forgot the less plant part.


    Be careful with Austin florist roses, btw. A lot of them have the same first name as popular Austins, but no scent. The amount of Austin patents out there is absurd, and a lot of them are florist versions you never see commercially.

  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    4 months ago
    last modified: 4 months ago

    Prairie, I bet that was still "Angry Juno" when he was here in a pot before I planted him. Paul picked the name later.



  • prairiemoon2 z6b MA
    4 months ago

    Shelia, Then I guess I remembered it right and we are talking about the same rose and the same photo you posted! Thanks for clearing that up!


  • Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR
    4 months ago

    I think Paul Barden has sold some plants directly from here since I got mine so others can enjoy this gorgeous rose too. The blooms last forever, and the rose bloomed into December.