Want to make a soil based media for my hosta and perennial containers
newhostalady Z6 ON, Canada
9 months ago
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
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Container Soils - Water Movement and Retention XVIII
Comments (229)When it comes to root health, pots with gas permeable walls carry the day. Terra cotta clay pots are better than plastic or vitrified clay pots and fabric pots are better than terra cotta clay. The reason is greater gas exchange through container walls and the fact that an increase in gas exchange comes with an increase in evaporative water loss, which can be a lifesaver when using water retentive media. There will still be a PWT in these pots, and for any given medium it will the same ht in a pot with rigid sides as in the fabric or air pots at container capacity. Container capacity is a measure of how much water the grow medium in a pot or container holds at the moment it has stopped draining after having been watered to the point of complete saturation. The ht of the PWT and how long it affects root function is usually key/critical in determining what opportunity a plant will have to realize as much of its genetic potential as possible (within the limiting effects of other cultural influences). The factor that most affects the ht of a PWT is the size of the particles from which the medium is made. So, reducing the duration of PWTs limitations increases the opportunity for plants to realize a greater measure of their genetic potential. But wait! There's a more important consideration. If you place your fabric containers directly on the ground/soil, from the perspective of hydrology it changes the fabric container to a raised bed; this, because water is free to move through the fabric between the grow medium and the earth, with the earth acting as a giant wick. This means, because of the increase in the force of adhesion in the mineral soil beneath the pot (due to a mineral soils much larger o/a surface area on a per volume basis), water in the soil will be pulled downward with enough source to overcome the capillarity holding it perched in the container. As long as you don't place the fabric container on coarse sand, peastone, or other large particles, the earth will likely pull all perched water from most media one is likely to use in a container. I've mentioned this and the fact that healing in your pots situating them directly on top of soil turns them into raised beds. the only caveat being it's essential that there is a 'soil bridge' so there is continuity of the soil column between the soil (earth) and the grow medium in the container, through the drain hole(s), so water doesn't have to jump an air gap to exit the container. This applies more to pots with rigid walls and is not a factor when discussing fabric containers. Al...See MoreContainer soils and water in containers III
Comments (150)You're welcome. Thanks again, for being so kind. Some thoughts I offered in another, older threads on this forum. They should pretty much answer your question, and may even be quoted in the text somewhere up this thread (if so, I apologize for the redundancy): In my estimation, the only case to be made for reusing container soils is one of economics, and you'll never find me argue against making that decision. If you can't afford, you can't afford it. That said and setting economics aside, you might decide to reuse soil for reasons other than economical. Perhaps the effort involved with acquiring (or making your own) soil is something you might not wish to go through or be bothered with. In any case, it would be difficult to show that soils in a more advanced state of structural collapse can somehow be preferred to a soil that can be counted on to maintain its structure for the entire growth cycle. So, if the economic aspect is set aside, at some point you must decide that "my used soil is good enough" and that you're willing to accept whatever the results of that decision are. All soils are not created equal. The soils I grow in are usually pine bark based & collapse structurally at a much slower rate that peat based soils, yet I usually choose to turn them into the garden or give them over to a compost pile where they serve a better purpose than as a container soil after a year of service. Some plantings (like woody materials and some perennials) do pretty well the second year in the same bark-based soil, and with careful watering, I'm usually able to get them through a third year w/o root issues. Watering habits are an extremely important part of container gardening. Well structured soils that drain well are much more forgiving and certainly favor success on the part of the more inexperienced gardeners. As soils age, water retention increases and growing becomes increasingly difficult. If your (anyone's) excellence in watering skills allows you to grow in an aging medium, or if your decision that "good enough" is good enough for you, then it's (your decision) is good enough for me, too. The phrases "it works for me" or "I've done it this way for years w/o problems" is often offered up as good reason to continue the status quo, but there's not much substance there. I'm being called away now, but I'll leave with something I offered in reply on a recent thread: "... First, plants really aren't particular about what soil is made of. As long as you're willing to stand over your plant & water every 10 minutes, you can grow most plants perfectly well in a bucket of marbles. Mix a little of the proper fertilizers in the water & you're good to go. The plant has all it needs - water, nutrients, air in the root zone, and something to hold it in place. So, if we can grow in marbles, how can a soil fail? Our growing skills fail us more often than our soils fail. We often lack the experience or knowledge to recognize the shortcomings of our soils and to adjust for them. The lower our experience/knowledge levels are, the more nearly perfect should be the soils we grow in, but this is a catch 22 situation because hidden in the inexperience is the inability to even recognize differences between good and bad soil(s). Container soils fail when their structure fails. When we select soils with components that break down quickly or that are so small they find their way into and clog macro-pores, we begin our growing attempts under a handicap. I see anecdotes about reusing soils, even recommendations to do it all over these forums. I don't argue with the practice, but I (very) rarely do it, even when growing flowery annuals, meant only for a single season. Soils don't break down at an even rate. If you assign a soil a life of two years and imagine that the soil goes from perfect to unusable in that time, it's likely it would be fine for the first year, lose about 25% of its suitability in the first half of the second year, and lose the other 75% in the last half of the second year. This is an approximation & is only meant to illustrate the exponential rate at which soils collapse. Soils that are suitable for only a growing season show a similar rate of decline, but at an accelerated rate. When a used soil is mixed with fresh soil after a growing season, the old soil particles are in or about to begin a period of accelerated decay. I choose to turn them into the garden or they find their way to a compost pile. Unless the reasons are economical, I find it difficult to imagine why anyone would add garden soils to container soils. It destroys aeration and usually causes soils to retain too much water for too long. Sand (unless approaching the size of BB's), has the same effect. I don't use compost in soils because of the negative effect on aeration/drainage. The small amount of micro-nutrients provided by compost can be more efficiently added, organically or inorganically, via other vehicles. To boil this all down, a container soil fails when the inverse relationship between aeration/drainage goes awry. When aeration is reduced, soggy soil is the result, and trouble is in the making. I've mentioned before that I don't post here to get people to convert to a particular mix or blend of soil. I post what I know will work very well for anyone who can get appropriate ingredients & modify the mix to suit their climate & other cultural conditions. If you use a mix that guarantees good aeration for the expected life of the planting - you're in good shape. Most peat based mixes will not work well in extended life plantings. Conifer bark based mixes, on the other hand, retain structure for much longer periods. If you still have questions, please don't hesitate .... Al...See MoreWhat can I mix my container soil with to make lighter?
Comments (35)Peat starts out at a very low pH and is adjusted upward by adding lime, which also supplies Ca and Mg. Coir starts at a pH that is already too high (around 7.0) for container media, leaving no chance for using lime as a Ca/Mg source. So what are you using that ensures your plants are getting the Ca and Mg they need, and how do you address the high pH issue that needs no attention with bark/peat-based soils? How do you know you're getting your coir/CHCs from a reputable packager? and that the solubles level isn't excessively high ..... until your plants are surviving or failing? Seems like an unnecessary risk to me. Lots of things become the rage when people don't understand the product well. It's only after they've been brought into the light that people start to say, "Hey wait a minute". Lots of people simply decided that coir (or CHC's) are a great idea based on the fact that THEY bought into the idea that peat is not renewable and they wanted to feel they made a wise choice in switching. Look at the impossible claims you hear about products like Superthrive, Eleanor's VF-11, Bloom-booster fertilizers ...... A few people repeat something they heard someone else say, and pretty soon it's an urban legend and touted as the best thing since sliced bagels. There are reasons commercial ops don't use significant amounts of coir and CHCs in media - cost, high levels of soluble salts (are common) and a pH too high to deal with w/o acidification of the irrigation water. "Isnt the point of drainage layer so there isnt a saturated layer at the bottom of the pot?" It may be your intent, but wishing it would work that way doesn't change physics - no matter how hard you wish. 'Drainage layers' do not promote drainage unless the particles in the drainage layer are no larger than 2.1x the size of the particles in the soil. If they are larger than that, water 'perches' in the soil above the 'drainage layer'. "If the styrofoam was rock I could understand the water perch idea." Rock or big chunks of foam make no difference. The water reacts the same way. "The op was asking about making containers lighter. Annuals and alot of plants dont need the 20+ gallon size of large containers for root colonizing. Why have a 100 pound pot if you dont have to. What would you suggest?" One of the best ways, from a scientific perspective, would be to upturn another (plastic) container inside of the one you're planting in and put a screen over the drain hole. Second best would be to insert a false bottom with a wick through it. You could also partially fill the container with soda bottles or milk jugs with screw-on caps. You CAN use chunks of foam or peanuts to reduce the amount of soil needed to fill a container, but these layers of material in the bottom of containers do nothing for drainage. Al...See MoreGood garden soil makes poor soil for roses in containers?
Comments (42)The reason you can't trust the volume of nursery pots, Jim, is that those black nursery containers are all "nominal" sizes. That means the volume of the pots is vaguely related to the stated gallon size. A "5 galllon" nursery can is 10.5 in. diameter and 12 in. tall. My online calculator says that is only 3.75 gallons if you pot 2 inches from the top of the pot. That isn't large enough for any rose past the first year or so if it puts on vigorous growth. The foot stomping is an old landscaper practice. It's just a cheap way of determining settlement without taking the time to water a plant in. I wouldn't do it. Water your plant in to settle the soil. I've seen people planting roses into dry potting soil. I wouldn't do it. Many potting soils have peat moss which sheds water once dry. Those of you in climates with steady rain year round may not have this problem, but in the desert West, once peat dries out, it takes a concerted effort to dampen it. I open the bag of soil, stick the hose in, fill it up and mix. Then I pot with dripping wet potting soil and also water it in. It's mud pies for grownups. It assures that the soil comes to the optimal height in the pot (about 2 inches down) and fills major air pockets. I unpot roses all the time and have never found an air pocket. I don't drop pots on purpose. Our summers are too hot to grow a lot of roses in pots well. We can't keep the roots cool enough through June and July. I overpot extensively. A 3 x 3 rose goes in an ornamental pot that is 22-24 inches high. I use various decorative pots from the big box store and always buy the biggest size. Why? They bring to rose up to height and look more in scale with a landscape. It's funny how a pot looks big in a store and miniature in the garden. Also, with those big pots I'm approaching the 15 gallon actual size I find any healthy rose needs. I do a seat of the pants volume-of-cone calculation to guesstimate the volume of the pot, taking into consideration the potting soil is probably 3 inches from the top of the container. Here's a nice online volumetric calculator. http://www.online-calculators.co.uk/volumetric/conevolume.php...See More
westes Zone 9b California SF Bay
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nicholsworth Z6 Indianapolis
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