@Allison0704 there actually is a legit market for lower priced forever stamps - of course there are most certainly bad actors in that space, too. When the concept of forever stamps came out people saw an opportunity - buy at the current price and hold on to them. As prices have risen they can sell below the current USPS price but higher than their purchase price. For the tiny bit of mailing that we do savings are a joke but DH loves the idea that he's getting a bargain! He's been doing this for several years now - we've never had an issue with the stamps.

I am getting on my socialist hobby horse again, but the various things like forever stamps and various app- or credit-card related transportation passes and such are all ways that more affluent people can save even more money than poor people. The government benefits by getting all your money Up Front for goods and services that you may take years to actually use, or may Never use, and you save money by being able to buy in bulk (Same with loading up your "Travel Wallet" with a lot of money instead of paying by the trip). I bought probably $100 worth of stamps when they started the forever stamp thing and it took me Years to use the first purchase up. Many people can't leave $100 worth of stuff they may or may not use over time lying in a drawer.

Poor people always pay more for everything; they pay higher interest rates, get longer terms of repayment, and generally have access to lower quality goods that have to be replaced more often and do not work as well even when new.

pal....affluent people often get to be affluent...by spending their money wisely. Making good investments with their savings. Bad business decisions make a LOT of people poor. ie: I look at foreclosed on home listings with a corvette parked in the driveway. A cable dish stuck on the side & a lawn care sign stuck in the lush green lawn.

It's probably an honest error & they can send you a new label.

I am still awaiting an answer by the seller as to why this happened, but I received a message that the recipient received the package. Apparently counterfeit postage is not uncommon and the USPS actually has tiers of responses. My package was not seized so it actually was delivered. https://faq.usps.com/s/article/Counterfeit-Postage

pal you are not wrong - the world is stacked against people on the lower rungs in many ways.

Poorer people suffer not only financially, but often also have more health and education issues.

I will be guilty of turning this into a thread about something else, but Re: bad decisions.

I have a patient who is a numbers man and quite affluent, but it has disconnected him from the world, really.

He knows that I also work with an underserved population and a very small subset of people who cycle in and out of homelessness, even, and he said to me "But I bet they all have cell phones, don't they?" and went on to talk about this sort of bad decision and how people who continue to make bad decisions are never going to get out of the situation they are in.

I said well, how much is a cell phone plan? and his was maybe $100 a month or something like that. And I said well, actually you can get some kind of basic cell phone plan for $25, but lets say it's a $100 a month. How is that going to get them to be not homeless?

"Well they can save the $100 a month".

And I said "Okay so at the end of the year they have $1200. Say they can get some sort of apartment for $400 a month" (which is impossible) . That gives them first month, last month and security deposit. Where do they get the $400 a month for the rest of the year? They don't have it. They're $4000 short.

In the mean time, the cell phone is their only permanent "physical address". Their social worker can contact them, they have access to their doctor or to their medical records, and they may have access to or store other things on their phone. They would not have any of that without a phone.

nicole there are many reasons a house goes into foreclosure and to speculate it's because of poor financial decisions based on a car, satellite dish and lawn care sign is not only unkind, it's unnecessary. A bread winner in the family may have died, or a child may be receiving expensive medical care, or someone may have lost a job, or a hundred other things about which we know nothing. And even if questionable financial decisions are what led to the house being foreclosed, isn't losing their home and all that goes with that enough 'punishment'? I want to live in a world where societal finger wagging about the misfortune of others is extinct.

palimpsest ; And yet all the POOR people in the USA have cell phones. Capitalism gives everyone a fair shake if the Government would just stay out of it!! People make their choices and too many didn't apply themselves at free school and figure out how not to be influenced by advertising!! Your choices make or break you everytime!!!

Your choices make or break you everytime!!!

I suspect the poorest choice anyone can make if they want to be wealthy is to not have wealthy parents. I suspect that familial wealth and the benefits it brings not only by direct transmission of money but also the opportunities wealthy children receive create FAR more wealthy people than most choices made by the poor. Is it possible to transcend ones social class, it is possible, but my opinion is that far more people who are wealthy came from affluent families.

In addition, financial savvy is not taught in schools, why is there an expectation that kids would somehow know how to make good investments, when their families may be using all their energy just to get food on the table?

Being upper middle class and on Gardenweb: spending $100,000 to replace a 20 year old kitchen that is perfectly fine other than being "dated" Not a Bad Financial Decision.

Being poor in America: spending a $50 windfall on getting your nails done instead of putting it in the bank: Such A Bad Decision that you Deserve Poverty.

I think I love you a little bit Lucille. Thank you for that. :)

Capitalism doesn't really give everyone a fair shake. Redlining comes to mind for some reason. Hmm.

" various things like forever stamps and various app- or credit-card related transportation passes and such are all ways that more affluent people can save even more money than poor people. "

Oh, come come. And poorer neighborhoods get more rain than better ones so that the affluent can gloat about the misery of those with leaking roofs.

My opinion: Some people who have good luck and good fortune are cursed with the misfortune of living a life filled with smugness and lack of empathy. Some people are rewarded with empathy by being smacked up the head when their script veers wildly "off course" and they realize their expectation of staying "on course" was based on unfounded belief in their own superiority to the less fortunate.

It's actually one of the reasons that our current system of transportation passes is under review. If you buy per trip it is more costly than if you can buy cards for multiple trips. They eliminated some transfers, so that if you do not have a card you pay for each trip separately.

So if you can only afford to pay by the day or by the trip, you spend more than someone who can have a card loaded with multiple fares all at once, and there are, or were, minimums that you could put on a new card.

The actual savings or benefits for someone who has a reasonable income are probably fairly negligible, But if you are poor, paying the highest fare to get someplace every single day chips away at what you are making at whatever your job is.

So you can make all the stupid snide analogies that you want. But it doesn't make what I said untrue.

@arcy_gw wrote - “And yet all the POOR people in the USA have cell phones.“

Why would this bother you, or anyone who truly loves their neighbor?

My parents told me, and I told my children, that the choice of parents is the most important decision in your life, and one no one will ever be

able to make. And it’s not just about money, although that is one of the biggest, if not the longest lasting, impacts on a life.

Life isn't fair or equal for all and it never will be. Some are in poverty because of bad luck and some because of bad decisions and/or some combination of both. Some well to do people were born into it and some made it on their own. Best not to pass judgment on anyone on either end of the spectrum and do whatever you can to help those in need when the opportunity arises. Need presents itself in many ways and it's not always financial.

The privilege is palpable, and the very antithesis of what Christ taught. Clearly, some here lack so much as even a basic grasp of the term systemic. (But it certainly comes as no surprise.)

Had to skip down to point out there is a government program that provides FREE mobile phones to low income people. Of course they're not iPhones, just basic, no frills smartphones. Forgive me if this was stated already.

So the argument that having a smartphone is an indicator of anything is bogus.

And also goes to show how out of touch, in their bubble, some people may be.

Lucille, I think your experience may remain one of those mysteries of technology we all bump into now and then. I will also say that sometimes the error message is boilerplate and not specific to the actual problem that may have occurred.

P.S. Most people who are well off have their family to thank for it, not their own initiative.

P.P.S. After reading - thank you to those providing enlightenment too.

3kats's comment is fair and balanced.

Anything can be blamed on anything or anyone, that's what conspiracy theorists and scapegoat searchers look for. That was the nature of my comment. To assume anything further about me or my views and practices is foolish.

The irony of someone suggesting that some comments contradict a religious teaching, while at the same time making an insulting comment that does just that, shouldn't be missed.

I don't understand why a question about postage had to veer off into a discussion about poor people. BTW, pal, poor people are allowed to buy forever stamps and save money, too.

Capitalism is the only system of government that has ever worked long term. We all know that socialism doesn't work and never has. The internet has given everyone access to all products from cheap and shoddy to ultra expensive, higher quality goods and everything in between. The only reason poor people buy lower quality goods is because that's what they can afford, not because that's all they have access to. Ida Claire is correct; there are many, many reasons why people are poor and I'm sure most of time it has nothing to do with poor decisions.

I consider myself to be low income, but not poor, because there are so many people much worse off than I am, or have ever been. From what I've seen from wealthy people, I'd rather be where I am, grounded in reality and able to see what is important in life.

" I'd rather be where I am, grounded in reality and able to see what is important in life. "

So, if your income were to increase 4x, say and your net worth were to increase by a similar ratio, you'd no longer be grounded or able to see what's important in life?

I did address that I had turned this thread into something else, so I apologize. What people forget is that student aid/grants, public schools, the public library, public transportation, the interstate highway system, and the postal service itself are all forms of socialism. You don't pay the post office more to send a letter 200 than you do two miles, you don't pay by the mile on the interstate, you do not pay for your own education in public schools.

Unless you went to private schools, paid cash the entire way without any assistance, you participated in a government social program.

I find the use of the word privilege these days troublesome. One definition is: an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich.

Some people have more money than others and that affords them advantages others with less money don't have. That's life. I grew up on the disadvantaged side and never thought twice about people who had much more material wealth than I did. My parents taught me that's just the way life is and, indirectly, if I wanted a better life for myself it was up to me to find a way to do that.

Many people have earned what they have through hard work and sacrifice. It seems that nowadays anyone who's financially successful is denigrated as privileged and anyone who's poor is a victim of someone/something else. I'm not so sure this is a good thing for our society/country.

ETA: I agree with pal that some level of government social programs are needed and a good thing. I think there is a tipping point though when people, and generations, lose motivation to make a better life for themselves and end up stuck at a level of government subsistence when they might otherwise have ended up in a better place.

woodrose - face to face conversations among friends rarely go A to B to C with no side commentary veering in another direction but instead go A to R to C etc. That's what this board is - conversations - so expecting it to be something else is going to leave you disappointed.

I think very few people escape the low trajectory, or drop off the higher trajectory they are positioned on at birth. But at birth, a poor person is no more or less to blame, or responsible for their situation than is someone born into wealth. Someone who takes advantage of the privileged position that they have is not doing anything wrong, nor is a person who is not able to escape poverty. Life isn't "fair" and no one said it would be. There are plenty of people who stay exactly where they are by being lazy and non productive no matter whether they are rich or poor. But there are plenty of people who work and are in control of their lives at every level of the socioeconomic scale who stay exactly where they are, too, rich or poor.

I use the word "privileged" to mean those who are secure socioeconomically. It is indeed a privilege to have been born into a family/community/culture where one receives greater access to opportunity, and it is also a privilege to engage with opportunity when born outside of a structure where it is easily accessed. Privileged isn't a dirty word, but it behooves us greatly to recognize and acknowledge when we are indeed a recipient of that which does not so easily befall others.

I apologize to the OP for mentioning Forever stamps. :-/

I'm glad your package was received.

To be clear about the misunderstanding people have about the very blurred lines between capitalism and socialism, Medicare is socialized medicine and the armed forces of the United States represent the largest socialized system of medical care, schools, housing and job training that exist in the country. I am not against either— both programs are helpful to people and provide incredible value for money. Many of those who have participated in and benefitted from those programs do not see them for the socialism that they are and that is unfortunate.

These days, I find that most people who use the words "capitalism" and "socialism" frequently misuse them and often don't really know what they mean.

I apologize to the OP for mentioning Forever stamps. :-/

I am happy the conversation turned to these important issues. I will still post if I find the reason for the counterfeit postage, but the package was received, processed, (it was an HbA1c test) and the result (4.5) available online. I'm happy with that, and I value this thread.

Quote: Dave Ramsey says his surveys show 80% of wealthy people are first generation wealthy. They had poor parents. Link to Millionaire myth busters....

Back to the topic, Lucille - what an odd and hard to anticipate experience you had. I'm glad it arrived - probably with postage due from the recipient.

Socialism is an economic system in which the government owns the resources and implements central planning of production, distribution and exchange. I find that many people do not understand the difference between economic theory and politics, but there you are.

ETA, thank you Lucille, you are very gracious.

Nicole, I’m not doubting that’s what Dave Ramsey said, but whether or not it’s true may be up for debate.

I think to interpret that data about millionaires one would have to look at such things as what does "poor" mean: were 80% of millionaire's parents in deep poverty, or were they just middle class without a million dollars?

Was the data looked at adjusted for inflation? A million dollars in 2020 is much different than a million dollars in 1970.

A million in what? Total assets? Cash only assets?

I know plenty of people who retire with $1M in retirement now. School teachers, middle management. Are they supposed to be considered self-made "wealthy people"? I don't know.

As unattainable as it is for many people in this country, I don't think this is really considered "wealth" anymore, it's certainly not self-sustaining wealth...that means tens of millions of dollars now.

Merriam Webster Def of a Millionaire: : a person whose wealth is estimated at a million or more (as of dollars or pounds)

Quote: Are you rich if you have $5 million dollars? You might need $5 million to $10 million to qualify as having a very high net worth while it may take $30 million or more to be considered ultra-high net worth. That's how financial advisors typically view wealth.Apr 18, 2023

We should not judge, nor underestimate people based on a slight acquaintance; they are far more complex than they appear. I think of people as icebergs. All you see is the 10% that is visible; the rest of it is submerged and can’t be seen.. And the 90% you can’t see is responsible for all the damage people can do to themselves and others.

"So, if your income were to increase 4x, say and your net worth were to increase by a similar ratio, you'd no longer be grounded or able to see what's important in life? "

Of course I would still be grounded in reality, because I'm already am and I would still be the same person. I'm not going to suddenly become a snob and look down on those less fortunate, or drastically change my spending habits. I feel like I've been blessed in so many ways, the financial part is not worth complaining about.

Growing up, a million dollars was rich -- set for life rich. It still has that feel or connotation, but the reality is different.

I'm glad free and subsidized phones were mentioned. can you imagine not having a stable home and not having a phone? And where would a person even find a payphone these days? Kind of essential these days -- no longer a luxury item.

I'm surprised that I have not seen medical care mentioned, or forgive me if it was and I missed it. Medical care has been the leading cause of personal bankruptcy filings for decades. I was hoping a piece in the NYT would lead to more (maybe it did and I missed them), but the protections in the ACA that spelled out affirmative charitable requirements for tax exempt hospitals seem to be largely ignored in many cases. About the same time I saw that piece, I was helping a friend whose joint income the year the pandemic hit was less than $3,000 and what insurance they did have they lost with his job. She wasn't covered under his plan so it wouldn't have helped with over $25,000 in charged for a miscarriage followed by a bleeding ulcer. She should have been given presumptive enrollment in medicaid and considered under the hospitals' financial assistance plans -- required under the ACA. She shouldn't have been billed at all. Didn't happen.

I think a lot of people are happily ignorant about what goes on in state and local governments, let alone the federal government. There are a number of states that refused to expand their Medicaid coverage out of pol-i-t-cal spite. I live in one of them.

Lascatx, I think you mean presumptive enrollment in Medicaid, not Medicare, as the latter is a program solely for persons 65 and older or the disabled. Medicaid is actually a more comprehensive program than medicare, but many doctors will not see medicaid patients.

woodrose, I think you can allow that others as grounded as you are can be found at all socioeconomic levels of society. As can people with social, personality, mental health or other problems.

Kswl, yes I meant Medicaid and changed it. I was editing late at night and after a week and a half of long, hard and crazy hear. I know the difference, but not all the brain cells are firing at all times. Thanks for catching that.

Carol, I live in one of those too, and we have one of the worst uninsured rates in the country. One of many things we keep sliding in. Texas was once a justly proud state, and there is much that is good here, but many of our leaders are not.

As Pal pointed out, there are many social programs within our capitalist economy, and nearly everyone benefits from them at some point. So, to propose that 'only capitalism' is successful is just foolish. Our economy is NOT an example of pure capitalism. Public schools, libraries, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. are all examples of social programs that wide swaths of American benefit from.

Also- as a related aside- As Smartphones became cheaper and more comprehensive, one unfortunate downside for children growing up in poverty, is that these families often no longer have tablets or other devices for children to use for homework. If you have children or grandchildren in school, you know that many districts have done away with textbooks going back and forth, and children are expected to access them online to complete their homework. Most of us would readily agree that a student with access to at least a 5x8 tablet is going to be able to navigate online textbooks better than a student trying to do so with a cellphone s/he is sharing with a parent. That is some privilege right there.