Heavenly Bamboo nandina is invasive. Please stop propagating it and start killing it instead.

Maybe I have the wrong cultivar name? I'm reading that there are a lot of varieties that aren't invasive:

https://gardengoodsdirect.com/blogs/news/nandinas-good-plant-bad-rep

I bought my house about 20 years ago and the previous owners had 4 of them under the tulip magnolia by my house. Maybe 10 years later I'd grown tired of them blocking the view from my living room window, so I dug them up and relocated them.

They've spread out SOME, but far less than my ajuga, mondo grass, etc. I think that I might be able to make 12 bushes out of them right now.

Creeping phlox is one of the those maintenance intensive plants I know. It doesn't have the density to keep ANYTHING out. Grass, neighboring perennials, weeds - everydthing come right up through it. It also doesn't have a deep enough root system to hold back a slope.

I like that you are making a plan. Good to make graph paper & pencil sketch for how much room needed.

Some random thoughts:

For yellow & purple combos, would not alternate, if it’s what I’m thinking you meant— too choppy & contrived. But do groupings , such as a wide V of talker ones and group others in front, maybe repeat same kind of grouping farther along.

Then, are you able to grow bananas, cannas and elephant ears as outdoor perennials in your zone? They seem marginal for that, though not as big a deal to stretch zone for fun plantings compared to key foundation plants.

@cecily 7A, I just now took this pic of my nandina:

This is my oldest one, I moved it here maybe 10 years from underneath the tulip magnolia and haven't touched it since. There are now 5 offshoots; one larger one to the left, a smaller one farther to the left, and 3 tiny ones to the right.

Based on that, I can't imagine that this is one of the invasive cultivars.

It does produce red berries, but I've never seen a bird touch them. And I've never seen any of these growing in the wild, so I don't think they're spreading them... at least, not like they do greenbrier.

Creeping phlox... doesn't have a deep enough root system to hold back a slope.

@mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY), hmm, thanks for the input on that! I had another thread on it and creeping phlox was the most economical suggestion, but it DOES kinda suck if the roots aren't deep enough to stop erosion.

The alternatives I have on hand are Chocolate Chip Ajuga (my original choice), Mondo Grass (the toughest option, but my least favorite), Anne Marie Ivy, and Creeping Jenny.

Any suggestions? Here's the original thread:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6364365/ground-cover-for-hill-at-end-of-driveway

For yellow & purple combos, would not alternate, if it’s what I’m thinking you meant— too choppy & contrived.

@marmiegard_z7b, you're right that my original plan was to alternate yellow and red, Sunshine Ligustrum and Loropetalum. Or more accurately, I planned to create a row of red Loropetalum about 10' apart, and then a second row of Sunshine Ligustrum in front of it and planted in between the Loropetalum. The Loropetalum gets taller than the Ligustrum, so my thought was that I would have multiple colors as a backdrop.

It WOULD look planned, of course, which is what I'd like to get away from in this area. But I also need something to cordon off the wild woods and create a border for the trees that'll take at least a decade to fill in, and I can't imagine how it would look without making it look planned :-/

are you able to grow bananas, cannas and elephant ears as outdoor perennials in your zone?

There's a "hardy banana" that's common in my area, but it doesn't produce fruit. What I have is a Blue Java Banana, which DOES produce fruit but needs longer than my growing season. Most people dig it up every year, but then that starts the cycle over so no fruit.

I dug mine up last year, planted it in a large container, and kept it in the greenhouse over the winter. It's about 3' tall right now, so maybe I'll get fruit this year? If not, I'll put it back in the greenhouse and hope for fruit next year! LOL

Elephant ears recommend being dug up in the winter, too, but I've always just left them out and they come back. We dropped down to 3F this winter, and they're still coming up! Maybe other cultivars are more sensitive, I'm not sure.

Cannas are pretty common perennials in my area, too, and I've never known anyone to dig them up for the winter.

Ok. Good to know.

To me it’s kind of a bossy combination for a backdrop hedge/ border, but everyone experiences these things differently.

I'm not sure I would describe your plans as a "cottage garden" style - more just a mixed border :-)

A couple of thoughts based on your description........don't alternate the loropetalum and privet. And don't row them out, either. This will produce a too regimented or 'constructed' appearance, which is just the opposite of what a cottage garden should look like. They are very loose, informal and unconstructed looking in appearance. Site the plants somewhat randomly instead, but in like groups or clusters rather than as singles or individually.

As to the nandina, if it produces berries, it has the potential for invasiveness in your area. It is only certain cultivars that do not flower (hence no berries) that are exempt from this issue. Also do not get sucked in by the "it poisons birds" argument. Nandina berries DO contain cyanide compounds but then so do dozens of other very common garden plants that birds (and humans!) consume routinely. The reports of mass bird fatalities stem from a single report of cedar waxwings stripping a plant bare. Waxwings are incredibly greedy birds and will eat as many berries as they can stuff down their gullets and they just overindulged. No other instances of this happening have been reported and no other bird species tend to have similar gluttonous behavior.

Maybe consider Spirea 'Ogon' - bright chartreuse green/yellow or kaleioscope abelia instead of sunshine ligustrum. Also on the loropetalum, they come in all sizes, be sure to check the variety. We have one that is a tree, others that are 5-6 high shrubs, and others that are barely 18" high. Our general colors are yellow and purple as well, with a few sprinkles of red from some japanese maples. Varigated false holly is nice, and we have the tall nandinas, some with red berries, others with yellow berries. Sure, there are some volunteers each year, but we just pull them up. I wouldn't consider it invasive. We get maybe 5 volunteers a year. We also have a very tall dark purple grass called Princess Caroline, it is very dramatic behind the Spireas. Comes out dark green and then turns to a vivid dark purple as the days get hotter. It was supposed to last one season - that was about 7 years ago. We have divided it several times and now have five clumps. You could also consider Baptisia, it is hardy and comes in blues, purples, and yellows. Can be ignored for watering, it survives in the worst dirt and drought. (Central NC/Raleigh, very heavy deer presence)

Nandina is on the invasive list for six southern states. I'm so done with home gardeners insisting that their plant is not invasive because they don't see the seeding.

Fo erosion control, you need something with real roots. If you can grab a handful, and pull it up, it doesn't have the root mass necessary. I'm not familiar with mondo grass, but the thing on that list that jumps out at me as able to do the job are spreading daylilies.

However you do this, it is going to require a LOT of weeding, and LOTS and LOTS of weeding in the beginning. So I'd start somewhat small, planting only a section first.

@cecily 7A, no offense was intended, I was really asking if you thought my cultivar was one of the "bad" ones.

I see that NC says:

This Asian native is aggressive and has a network of rhizomatous stems that have a habit of suckering, and it reseeds itself readily. It naturalizes and establishes dense stands in forest habitats or disturbed sites, especially in the piedmont and mountainous regions of North Carolina, and is considered an invasive species in several states.

...

Because this plant has a tendency to be invasive and considering its toxicity, if ingested by pets or children, it may be best to consider an alternative shrub.

https://plants.ces.ncsu.edu/plants/nandina-domestica/

Considering that I've had them for 20 years and never seen this, it's hard to justify blindly destroying a bunch of my most versatile, toughest, and attractive shrubs and spending a ton of money on alternatives, just because the government said I should "consider" it. Especially when I'm not seeing what they say can potentially happen.

But anyway.

Thanks for all of the tips! I'm having a hard time envisioning how to make the ligustrum and loropetalum look as a border without them being in rows, and every picture I can find just has them in rows! Do you mind sharing any pics of what you're suggesting?

I also think I need to add some evergreens here, I realize that everything I have will die back in the winter :-O

I'm not familiar with mondo grass...

@mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY), when I bought my house almost 20 years ago, there were 5 bunches of mondo grass used to accent the walkway to the front door. It was pretty!

Two years later, they had grown to about 4 times their original size :-O I had to dig them all up, tear them into chunks, and replant smaller portions. I didn't have anywhere else for the excess, so I threw it into the woods.

Where it all took root and did just fine.

The next year, I sprayed the excess with Round Up. I swear I heard the mondo grass laugh! And, of course, the Round Up had no impact.

The next year, I started trying to sell the excess locally. I sold a lot, but I still had more! So I started giving it away to anyone and everyone. I started planting bunches along EVERY walkway, but quickly realized my mistake... every other year, I have to dig it ALL up and split it!!!

Last year, I gave a guy an entire flatbed full of it! And now, I could probably give away the same amount.

Long story short, it looks like tall grass and has deep roots, but it's semi-evergreen and seemingly indestructible. You can literally dig it up and sit it on gravel and it'll root, no problem. And it will choke out pretty much anything in its path.

That makes it a GREAT solution for erosion control, except that it's not particularly attractive. That's why I'm hesitant to use it as the introduction to the property.

Lemme know if you want some mondo grass!! :-D

Jason, you don't see your nandina reseeding because you're growing it in a mulched bed. Mulch prevents most reseeding. Birds do spread the seed because nandina pops up in wild areas forming thickets. I'm guessing you haven't seen this personally because you don't go hiking much and you've never worked to remove invasives from the wild. I'm not surprised that you discount my opinion because you do that frequently but to ignore Garden Gal seems incredible - she's one of the most experienced horticulturalists on this forum. I won't waste any more of my time responding to your posts.

I'm not surprised that you discount my opinion because you do that frequently

Do I? I was unaware of that. You and I are both in the same zone, so I've always made a point to read what you say and take it into consideration.

I'm not sure what I've done to offend you so badly, but I assure you that it wasn't intentional.

but to ignore Garden Gal seems incredible

@gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9), do you mind clarifying? When I read your post it seemed to imply that it being on the "invasive" list was negligible and overblown.

I'm sorry but that was not my intent!! There are a few cultivars of dwarf nandina that never or rarely ever flower. If they don't flower, they don't produce berries and therefore are not considered invasive. Nandina spreads by seed dispersal, typically from birds eating the berries. But these non-bloomers are in the minority and does not apply to yours, which has berries and therefore can be and is invasive in the southeast. Like almost all invasive species, location matters!! .

Thanks for the clarification, @gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)! That does put a bit of a damper on things :-(

I want to be clear, when I read the state website I see a lot of "it may be" and "could be", not "it IS". I work with government agencies a lot, and I know that vague wording like that is often intentional. I've learned to be hesitant to blindly trust anything like that unless it CLEARLY says that there's a problem.

For example, the state makes it very, very clear that greenbrier is a problem:

https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=C867-2&title=controlling-greenbrier

And you can see that the verbiage is a lot different from the verbiage on nandina.

Regardless. It's better to know than to not know, so I guess I'll start looking for similar (native) replacements and replace my nandina as money allows :-(

I’m in 7b and there was nandina planted in my yard when I moved in. It hate it. It is so much work to remove all the babies that pop up all over the place. It takes over where other plants are supposed to be and I can’t remove it without hurting the plants that I want to be there. Don’t do it!

@blueskysunnyday, I've had these in my yard for years and never thought anything bad, but like someone else said earlier, I had them mulched and that seems to have prevented the spread.

I've dug them up and relocated them, it's super easy! They're very shallow, and you can really just use a spade to chop and give yourself about a 2' diameter. That might make it easy to dig them up without hurting the surrounding plants.

With @cecily 7A and @gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9) 's insights, though, I'm going to dispose of mine and replace them with similar plants. I'm thinking Oregon Grape Holly? But I haven't decided yet.

As for the general design of the garden, so far I've planted a Little Gem Magnolia and a Sweetbay Green Shadow Magnolia. I marked their expected sizes off, and around the perimeter I've planted the Forever Goldy arborvitae and 4 camellias with a variety of colors and bloom times. That already fills up almost 1/3 of the garden!!

I have an elderberry bush that I've been babying for awhile, I think I'm going to plant it in a corner near the woods line. It's not gorgeous, but it'll fill in some of the empty looking lower regions and the berries should make the wildlife happy.

Tomorrow I'll cover the hill with Ajuga, and then I'm going to flatten out a few areas with a river rock border. Maybe have Creeping Jenny hang over the rocks for color? That might take some work to maintain, though, so I haven't decided.