Hi everybody, Just got finished reading this book of a thread. I would say I have learned a lot in here and appreciate EVERY single bit of advice.....the good, the bad and the ugly. Inkognito-I did enjoy the sing-a-long, it was just soooo beautiful!!!! ( and yes saypoint, I heard you singing too). I'd have to agree with everyone who said your advice was perfect. I need to close my eyes and invision what I would like there, it's hard to do but my brain sure could use the exercise. Nippersdad, you nailed my thought process perfectly, especially with the " I think it is rather unfair to paint the solicitation of ADVICE (particularly when accompanied with a smiley face) as a demand for free services." comment. First I LMAO at the smiley face remark :) but I really did think that this would just be a fun discussion for those of us who like to give our 2 cents worth on these forums. Somebody mentioned to do your homework first. For a lot of us out here, THIS is our homework. I have learned more in these forums than I have ever learned in a magazine or book. The ideas I've gotten from these types of discussions are priceless. Oh, I almost forgot - Nipper, you have me really wanting a screened in area under the deck, it's only money right? I would like to clarify that I never complained about posters and their responses. I got the impression that some of you think I did. I don't get my panties in a wad over internet remarks.

OK, I read the first several posts... and skimmed the rest. As a Realtor and someone who has built a moderately high end home with similar specs, and someone somewhat familiar with builders, tricks, and what-not; as well as, a person that has had to take a cabinet maker to court for failing to perform per a very detailed contract. I believe I have some serious insight. (This forum saved me from losing my mind.) First, you have gotten some sage advice above. Heed it. Secondly, I do not believe that I would EVER do a cost plus contract building. Why would you? There is NO incentive for the builder to watch out for your budget, build wisely, or serve you at any turn. The more he spends, the more HE MAKES! DUH!!! RESCIND that decision now! BACK OUT. Contact and attorney to get out of it. Best $400 you'll spend. YOU are taking ALL the risk!!!! (I know, builders are in my family!) Your lot is $165K +/-, which in the Midwest, I assume is a lot with a view or large acreage. At $850K, that's over $200/sf. You should be able to build an exceptional home for that amount of money. If I had a builder hand me that list above, I'd crumple and scrunch it into a tight ball and throw it away for someone insulting me and wasting my time. Ten years ago, we built and acted as our own General Contractors. We now have about 4,500sf finished. About 2,500sf is Brazillian Cherry and the wood and install was around $20,000, as posted above. The rest of our home is a combination of travertine, porcelain, and carpet. All flooring was around $35K. I have 5 bathrooms with Toto one piece commodes, 11 sinks throughout the home, and 4 custom shower doors. The frameless MBa door was $1,500 alone. (I got bids from $4,300 to $10K for the glass doors in my bathrooms, so BIDS are IMPORTANT.) Cabinetry: OH. MY. LORD. Bids were all over the place. Many companies literally demanded to see the entire home plan. They bid on the home based on the overall price of the home. How? They figured they'd charge 10% of the value of the home, not including appliances. I went with a custom guy that obviously was a CROOK and CAD. (I will not go there.) I have a terrific kitchen. Upgraded, yet not too extravagant. 48" Thermador Dual Fuel Range, Advantium 220v oven, Fisher Paykel Dishwasher, Compactor, Franke Pro 12" deep sink, $600 faucet, Franke disposal, Warming Drawer, And a standard fridge, and two separate under-counter U-Line fridges with icemaker and a freezer models. I do not have two sinks or a pot filler; but will in the next house. My kitchen is about 16'x28', with an additional 6'x6' pantry. It's a very nice kitchen. 4'x8' island, Beautiful granite and mosaic back-splash behind range. I think about 83sf of granite with a double ogee edge, and 1/8" metal plate under island granite. Granite is a Level 3 granite: Delicatus ��" Polished. Price for all of my home granite was around $8K. Appliances around $22K or so... and had I bought a 48" fridge about $6K more. Opted for undercounter fridges and other home cooling fridges spaced throughout for convenience. (Six in all.) Let's see: Cabinets in the house near $35-40K. Roof: I have a 50 year shingle, too. Shingles alone were about $4K, not including install. Prices to install the roof, with weather watch in valleys and 'cut up' areas, ran from bids from $4,500 to $22,000! Bids to install did not include the materials... only labor. I went with the group of guys that I found that were roofing all of the 'high end' homes around here. And...drywall finishing with a level 5 finish was pricey. We bought all materials. Contracted for labor that bid $6500. He tried to bill us twice that much... got a lien, etc. He wasted SO much drywall, since we were buying materials. I would rethink that next go around. ( I would also make sure that all electric, speakers, etc... was marked on the ceiling as soon as sheetrock was installed. I would also take pictures with two cameras BEFORE walls were closed up in case one camera fails.) GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING. (We did and won.) When you GC a project yourself, you front all the money and MUST MANAGE. If you want to use a builder's money and he fronts all the money, then HE manages the project. IF you do a COST PLUS, THE BUILDER DOESN'T CARE WHAT YOU change or spend BECAUSE HE MAKES MORE MONEY FOR YOUR IGNORANCE and every single change. Just Don't DO IT. Choosing a builder: Make sure you have a full understanding of every cost of every specified nail, screw, how your drywall is installed (nails or screws), change up costs, etc... Do not trust "your friend" from childhood, blood relation, guy from church, etc. I hate to say it, but at the end of the day, you'll get screwed. Just do not get into any building relationship unless you have your builder putting some skin into the game and manages YOU and YOUR money. Everything that you want and agree to do is to be in writing. (My bro is a builder. His policy, sad to say, is screw them first or he'll get screwed.) Many builders think that way. I hear their positions all the time. SOMEONE WILL PAY for screw-ups. Make SURE your finances are PROTECTED from their mismanagement. Make SURE you fully understand your contract and what is expected from you. Ask your attorney to make SURE that the numbers are fixed and you know EXACTLY what the home will cost and every single appliance model #, finishing item, cabinet quality, with half of a sample door in YOUR possession is written into that contract. IF it's in the contract, then you won't end up with an expensive home, but one as you expected. Because I had every light fixture, finish, model number, stainless screws, name of every single item, We won at every issue. I've had grown men CRY in my face trying to plea away errors and omissions. I had a contract and I will pursue it to be fulfilled. If you don't pursue, you will get screwed. Be prepared and professional. Every agreement with everyone is to be in writing. Also get them to sign releases when completed and you are satisfied. If they warranty an item or service, get that in writing, too. Blessings to you. Story: Gal I know hired guy from church to frame her home. He told her, "I'll charge you $20K to frame if you pay me cash. If you have to write me a check, then the framing costs will be $25K." She chose the former method. All was well until the last two draws. She stipulated that she needed 48 hours of when he needed a draw to get the money. He agreed. All of this was verbal. 2nd to last draw, he told her on Friday that he needed the money THAT DAY. She said, "I'll have to give you a check." Framer was fine with that. On the last draw, she expected to pay him $5,000. Framer said, "No. It's $10K, you didn't stick to our agreement." She balked. He threatened to file a lien on her property that afternoon and "all in the church would know she didn't pay her bills". She knew we had a few liens and she didn't want to be embarrassed... so she acquiesced and caved. She paid his demands. Later, I said, "Why would you allow him to bully you that way? It was HIS responsibility to prove your agreement to the courts. I wouldn't have paid him one red cent more than the $5K and let the courts decide. I am confident you would have won." She was more worried about her pride. I would have been concerned about my allegiance to my family and I would have told everyone that asked about that cad. I don't care if he did go to my church. He's a 'business church goer' and people needed to be warned of his tactics. OK... sorry for no paragraphs. I just realized I could. Back to pricing. Electric LABOR was $16,000, which was to include basic wiring. Electrician left an account open and did not pay it for our home wiring and we had to clear a $2K mechanics lien. (Yes, TRHEE issues concerning liens while building.) The lighting was also worth $18,000. And no, not gold plated. I have 64 doors in my home. Yes, 64. Windows are top of the line, triple glazed, argon gas, etc. All windows trimmed out, etc. Bricking, $40K. Stairs: Oh. My. Lord. WHAT A shocker. Labor and materials were around $25K+ and it was a Brazillian cherry stair and riser, wood rails and BC banister and turned at the finial areas. I've since forgotten all the parts. I was shocked at what it cost. So, finishing inside the house was pricey. I'm not touching on painting, fireplace, mantle, porches, fans, and plumbing. Your prices above are a JOKE in today's world. Also, many counties have impact fees and other fees besides a building permit fee. Our county started adding fees up to around $20K now just to build. These are important numbers to know. FYI: If you are in a flood zone and must have flood insurance, you had best check with FEMA to find out the new building codes... because the fees will apply and new building codes must be followed. It's your responsibility to do this due diligence. I am most appalled at about your post is that I cannot believe anyone would sign any agreement with unsubstantiated and 'hard numbers'. I hope you have more paperwork than what you are presenting. I doubt that you really have signed any 'contract' with any builder except to secure a lot. It appears that you should back out of your plans because I would never encourage a client to rush into any contract with the information you gave. Without going into story after story, I will give you the punch lines: I have personally known people that HAVE gone into a building situation like this and when it came to closing, the people ended up in divorce court, law suit, and one guy committed suicide. Why? All ended up getting screwed at the closing table. The builder 'gladly' changed anything and everything to make the client happy. One person was to have a $750K home, with change ups and client demands... turned out to be almost double. Another, $350K MORE. The builder had it in their agreement that they would pay for all change ups, modifications, etc. ANY changes, even adding a light switch, will cost you double than had it been on the plan in the beginning. Don't even try to add a closet or enclose something. It's best to get the house built, then change whatever after closing. Building is stressful. If you are independently wealthy, then no problem. If you are like most moderately well off American that wants what they want, make sure you do it wisely and have well proven, wise advisers help you build. It is also a huge bonus to have honest employees/contractors. Lastly, make sure you have several web cams on site to keep an eye on your building supplies. Keep everything locked up and make sure builder does too. What goes missing or is stolen, will cost YOU more in the end. It will be the best money spent.

brendamc, I don't come on this board often anymore but felt I needed to reply to your post. It took us 3 years to build our home and reading your post has brought back many of the reasons we always said we would never do it again including a long illness and final passing of my M.I.L. then moving F.I.L. who is 86 to be close to us- all while we were building. The story of your incompetent architect reminds me of our's who made a huge mistake by not including snow-load trusses for our 4200 elevation home. The mistake wasn't caught until everything was roughed-in and caused a 3 month work stoppage while our County Planning department decided if they would allow us to retrofit or if we would have to tear the house down and start over. Plus the cost of this mistake was substantial (our architect makes monthly reimbursement payments to us). We were allowed finally to retrofit another 50 smaller trusses into our home. Everyone has tales of horror. Like your's, our home ran close to $300k over what we thought it would/should. We live in a high-fire danger area in SoCal (in fact there was a fire this weekend behind our home that made the national news). We're also about 400 feet from the major earthquake fault in California. Anything could happen to our home. But what I wanted to tell you is that all those reasons for NEVER building again go away every time DH and I sit on our back porch (which we do nightly). We LOVE the area we built in and our home. It is a refuge for us and I walk around even after a year and wonder how we got so blessed. I know this is a long post that's bouncing around but basically what I'm trying to tell you is if this is your dream home like it is ours, then it will be so worth it once the labor pains have fogged in your mind.

I hear you DYH. I so much miss my old garden, an eight year labor of love. And I miss my finished basement with my office and all that storage! I cried and cried the day I closed on that house and left. I miss the big old house I grew up in. SO and I were just talking about this today. I think it depends on how happy you were in the house and how it compares to your present home. I am now living in my parents former home, which I inherited from my mother. I'm here going through her stuff, my stuff and SO's stuff. Dad moved to a condo. While I like the house, (it's lovely and the lot is beautiful) it lacks storage and is on a busy street. I could probably manage those two issues, since the house cost me nothing. But I can't manage the overwhelming sense of sadness I get from living in my mom's house with her things and constantly going through the same motions as she did. SO said that I have to not let it bother me. Not sure how that is going to happen. I do busy myself but when the process of busying myself includes doing the exact things that my late mother did in her exact spot with her implements . . . for some that might be comforting, but for me not so much. I have no desire to get rid of the family heirlooms, but I need a new space. We hope to move someday . . . Only time will tell if we manage to swing it.