Portion of radiant floor not workin
Den Rog
3 months ago
last modified: 3 months ago
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Mint tile Minneapolis
3 months agolast modified: 3 months agoDen Rog
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Are cold spots normal in radiant floor heating?
Comments (23)If the unheated portion is in a place where I'd place my bare foot as part of my normal traffic pattern as I make my way around the room? To me that'd be something to gripe about. If it was in front of a vanity, a place where's I'd typically be stationary? That'd be completely unacceptable. I've refused to short cut mat or cable coverage, even when the homeowner has insisted that it'd be okay to do so. Because it never will be okay. They might accept the poorly heated floor with cold spots because they insisted on and agreed to it. But they'll never, ever be happy with it. If I were ever to shortcut a mat...which I won't...I'd not do it without the homeowner signing off on a very detailed "heated versus unheated" floor plan. In your original post you wrote that there is no heat on the floor within 18" of the vanity, right in front of a sink. To me, and to Suntouch, that's way out of bounds. In front of vanities Suntouch recommends the mat be right up next to the vanity. If there's a toe kick, it goes under the toe kick. So 18"? That's a battle to be fought between you and your sub who installed the mat. In my eyes, the homeowner wins on that one. How this is remedied? You could refund them the amount of the RFH back to the homeowner, perhaps even recouping a part of the money through the sub who installed the mat. That may or may not satisfy. You can keep things as they are and let it slide. You might end up with an ulcer. You can fix it from below.You can eat the cost of the new mat, the tile sub perhaps could compensate you for the cost of opening up and closing up the ceiling below the bathroom. Or you can bring the original tile sub back in and fix it from above. He supplies the labor at no charge. You can work out the materials cost as best as you can with the tile sub. There are options, none of them pleasant. I do feel for you. You sound like someone who builds with good intentions. You wrote that "Many of the issues are self inflicted, and come about in an effort from him trying to save money, which all come back to bite ME. Our profit margin is currently below our overhead costs, and there is no indication of it stopping here." That's a tough spot to be in. But if he's talking you into changing things along the way and you're not executing formal Change Orders as the plans and contract morph away from the original design and budget agreement? Again, I might be reading too much into this and making an erroneous assumption. But when I've had difficult clients, everything goes in writing. Every change to the original plan is a written change order, paid for by the customer before the change is made. If the payment isn't made before the due date specified on the change order, no change is made and for that portion of the project, work goes along per the original plan and the original contract. If the change order results in a cost savings, it gets deducted from the next disbursement notice. There is karma. There are the easy clients. Like the one a few years ago who deposited $900k in an account with my name on it and said "build me a house". Anyhow, I do wish you luck with this. You sound like one of the good guys who's been run over by a freight train. Might be time to put on your engineer's cap, wave a red lantern, and slow this guy down a bit....See MoreRadiant Heat
Comments (1)welcome to the new world of radiant heat let me take a stab at explaining it. first of all it has to be all calculate out. usually the supply house who carries it will do it for you. radiant heat operates under a temperature usually around 110 degrees. maybe 120 high side this is cost effective B/c your hot heating water too 180 degree like baseboard. its done by laying flex pipe under the floor and covering the whole surface. there are plates that give off heat and insulation that is required. NOW here is where the cost efficiency gives in. with baseboard first your only heating the outside wall. with 180 degree water. with radiant heat your heating with 110 degree water and your heating the whole area. with out going into detail. it uses less BTU's to heat the floor and have the heat rise, then to heat the the walls and have the heat not only rise but move out to the whole room. also for more efficiency on new boiler and mixing valves ten could adjust themselves to the outside temp. for example if its 0 degrees outside you want the water to be hot in your boiler to 180 degree. you may need all of this BTU to heat up your house. but on a 55 degree cloudy and windy rainy day you may not need 180 degree water you may need only 140 degree water in the boiler to heat up the house. so the boiler does not have to work that hard to heat your house up. Now the only negative thing I can really come up with is the equipment is kinda on the pricey side. So what I am saying is its not cheap to install. I myself only did a few and I can in as a secondary person. some people get baffled and I am usually the guy who fixes the problem and in and out of the house. Even if I was to do my own house it would cost a pretty penny for material. again I will say its not cheap but well worth the comfort level.............. George one more thing you mention wood being a insulator. once you heat the wood up to 110 degrees the wood maintain that heat for a long period of time so it will give a long heat cycle once its heated. same with concrete once its heated up it will maintain that heat for a long period of time. and no its not really a do it yourself type job....See MoreCan you 'feel' hydronic radiant heat under all flooring types?
Comments (15)There's a lot of good information in the healthyheating post, but unfortunately, some misleading/inaccurate info as well. The good - building a really efficient house is definitely the way to go. The better insulated and air sealed, the more stable the temperatures, and the less it will matter what type of heating system you use. As the poster noted: "Its not just about the flooring its about the system the building (affects heating load what you pay the utilities) the flooring affects resistance) the tube spacing (affects fluid temperature affects efficiency) .theyre all joined at the hip" I'm not sure what the comments about VOCs have to do with heating systems. I might be missing the author's point, but the implication I get from reading the posting is that somehow radiant heating helps reduce the VOCs in your home. I know that's not the poster's point, but the way it's mixed in with talk about radiant, it's quite misleading. To clarify, VOC levels are a function of materials used in the house and the fresh air ventilation rates. As for radiant heating efficiency. There is a lot of controversy surrounding the efficiency of radiant systems. The industry claim is that you can set your thermostats lower because the heat radiates up from the floor, resulting in greater psychological and physiological warmth. In actual practice, the studies have had conflicting results. While it is true that in a low-temperature radiant installation, you can operate water heating equipment at more efficient temperatures, it's not true that it's a slam-dunk savings in all situations. This is particularly true in basement radiant slab installations where a fraction of your heat is going downward to heat the earth or out the edge of the slab. This can easily result in a 10-30% efficiency penalty, or more depending on the installation. The comments about the emissivity of the floor material is a red herring. While the follow-up comment about the R-value of the floor material is valid. What matters is the ability of the system to transfer heat into the living space. Tubes in concrete, exposed, is most capable. Tubes hanging in the joist bay, under the wood floor under a carpet is a worst case scenario. It is simply not true that the floor material does not make a difference! Consider this - if you have a concrete floor and a carpet, both at 70F, which one will "feel" colder when you stand on it in bare feet? The feeling of "cold" that your feet pick up is due to the heat being more effectively transferred from your feet to the concrete floor than to the carpet. The thermal conductivity of the concrete is much higher than the carpet. The floor material makes a profound difference to the actual functioning of a radiant floor heating system. Also be aware of the flywheel effect. Large, heavy masses take a while to speed up and slow down. The same with thermal masses, like concrete slabs. They have a capacity of holding lots of energy. Because of this, they take a lot of energy to bring up to temperature. With a forced air heating system or conventional baseboard heaters, you can set the temperature back at night or when you leave for the day, saving considerable energy. With a high mass radiant system, it takes a lot more heating energy to get the slab up to temperature, so it is slower to respond. This applies to the time it takes to cool down also. Quoting from the EERE website: "Thick concrete slab systems have high heat capacity and are ideal for storing heat from solar energy systems, which have a fluctuating heat output. The downside of the thick slabs is their slow thermal response time, which makes strategies such as night or daytime setbacks difficult if not impossible. Most experts recommend maintaining a constant temperature in homes with these heating systems." This is particularly problematic in the spring and fall, when it may be in the 40's at night but sunny and in the 60's during the day. Ask people with radiant systems about their comfort in these situations and you'll find a fair number who are dissatisfied with the comfort. This is a good reason to keep a forced air system for heating as well as the radiant. Use the forced air for primary heating during mild weather and radiant when it's colder. The healthyheating describes this on their website under "myths". Unfortunately, the way it's discussed is highly misleading. Radiant heating systems do NOT act like heat lamps. Heat lamps operate at very high temperatures and have essentially zero heatup time. Heat lamps do work by radiant heating. In floor systems do not. They operate at very low temperatures and can take considerable time to warm up and cool down. Depending on the design, this can be many hours. Quoting from the EERE website: "Despite their name, radiant floor heating systems also depend heavily on convection, the natural circulation of heat within a room, caused by heat rising from the floor. Radiant floor heating systems are significantly different than the radiant panels used in walls and ceilings." I don't want to seem negative on in-floor heating systems. I like them and use them in my own tiled bathroom floors. But you need to know that it is not "child's play", even for a competent installer, due to complicating factors....See MoreBusted Pipe in Radiant Floor Heat
Comments (3)Sorry, I forgot to specify that the leak was caused from a frozen pipe. I wasn't aware of infrared readings, but have found some companies in the region that do it. I'm excited to find out that the floors/radiant heat can be saved, and we don't have to convert to a furnace at a cost of over $4000! Thanks for the help, and for easing my mind....See MoreDen Rog
3 months agoMongoCT
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