Question on load bearing.

last year

First time homeowner. I can do a bit of everything and I'm doing a full renovation.
This house has a wall between the living and dining room that bears the floor joists for the second level above. These joists run perpendicular to the first floor joists.
I want to remove the wall and replace it with a flush LVL beam. I've designed and calculated the beam and everything looks good. I drilled a small hole down through the subfloor to locate where the support for this wall comes from. It sits right between floor joists with no real support nearby. It seems the entire wall holding the second level joists in this area wasn't properly supported. I've had I beams installed under the first floor joists so it at least has that point of support now.
What I've done is dig/pour footers in the crawlspace. Then laid 16" flue block and filled with concrete and rebar. This concrete column is about an inch from reaching the floor joists above. I then installed blocking between the joists that rest tightly between the subfloor and the concrete column and are nailed to the joists. There's 10 of them so they nearly span the entire width of the column. Correct me if I'm wrong but these 16"x16" support columns should be more than enough to bear the weight of the two interior 4x6 shown supporting this beam, correct? I almost feel as if inserting the 4x6 through the subfloor and anchoring then directly to the concrete would have been better.

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Comments (8)

Brandon Ring
Original Author
last year
For a bit of clarification... With the first and second level floor joists being perpendicular, the load bearing wall in question is parallel with the first floor joists. This is why I felt it was necessary to have the support columns for this beam be supported all the way to the footings.
PRO
RappArchitecture
last year
I wouldn't trust any advice on this forum relative to structural engineering. Your best bet is to hire a structural engineer on an hourly basis to check and bless your design and calcs.
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This is a rather meaningless guess without actually seeing the plans... but it’s the internet, what can go wrong? 16 inch deep floor truss spaced at 24 inches on center (On Center is dist from center of floor joist to center of next adjacent floor beam or joist). Double top chord bearing... Top chord is more or less the flanges or the top part of a beam (top flange, vs bottom flange, or the web... i.e. parts of a beam) or the top element in a truss. Double top chord is something I associate more with steel beam and poured concrete deck construction than with wood residential framing construction... generally means two different layers of top chords ( in a truss or joist), or top flanges (in a web-flange beam cross section). Someone would have to see the detail to interpret geometry more specifically. Top chord bearing typically means the truss or beam is supported by the underside of the top chord, instead of the bottom of the beam sitting on top of (or “bearing” on) what is beneath... Plan reading 101: These notes are about the floor system... if the ends of the above floor’s joists or trusses are supported by the framing in the wall you want to remove... (i.e. floor joists supporting the floor above are perpendicular instead of parallel to the wall you want to remove) then that wall is supporting the load of those floor joists (and the contributing area’s floor load from above floor), and you will need to replace the removed wall with a strong beam or truss for all these floor joist ends to bear on with the wall removed. Note that the replacement beam would span from one place where there is a column or vertical structure that will support the load of the above floor to another (from hardpoint to hardpoint)... length of the beam, and demolition to install the beam would therefore likely be greater than the 5 ft you seek to remove. Random guesses... without eyes actuallyon your plans.... Joe’s point that there’s the plans... and then there is investigating how it was really built/framed on site is also non-trivial
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Ok-that’s what I figured. Just makes me lean towards considering options that don’t involve removing the wall.
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While not a complete answer, some information can be given on this forum. To know for sure we would need more information on the span and the truss. However, it is unlikely that a builder is going to engineer trusses without load bearing walls on a middle floor while using a load bearing wall on the bottom floor. It is spending money for no reason. So, for preliminary brainstorming while you wait on better information, I would assume they are both load bearing.
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The roof framing is unlikely to span from the center pole to the outer deck posts; that would require unnecssarily large and expensive roof beams. You can be pretty sure the walls are load bearing if they're supported on foundation walls. Rearranging the walls will also change the lateral bracing of the house. I would try to find the original drawings at the local building department and see if the original structural engineer is still available.
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Joseph Corlett, LLC
last year
You don't need an engineer; you need a competent framer with a good working relationship with the local division of inspection.
charles kidder
last year
You need to get a permit and inspections for this kind of work. Because if you don't and someone gets hurt, including you, you'll be in a world of hurt.
Brandon Ring
Original Author
last year
I have all the permits and know the work will be inspected.
kevin9408
last year
last modified: last year
Brandon, I'm slightly impressed with what you've done so far, but I don't exactly understand how you''re transferring the load. You want to cut the 2nd floor joists and insert a LVL and transfer the load down at the ends of the LVL which is normal and commonly done. I got it but don't get what the I beams under the first floor joists and 10 concrete columns have anything to do with transferring the LVL load to the ground.

Your LVL should now be running parallel to the 1st floor joists from what you said. The load on the LVL would be the total load the 2nd floor joist were supporting. The load would be transferred down to the 1st floor sub floor and fall between two 1st floor joists. Dimensional lumber the same width as the floor joists would need to be nailed perpendicular between the 2 joists on either side of where the load would transfer. Directly under these two points support pads in or on the ground are needed to support the load, and then blocked up to the load point. Load would determine pad size and this can be found in the span charts of the Code book. The span would be the length of the LVL, and the load would be only the load it holds This can be found in the code charts for a single level home. (you're only supporting the 2nd floor which is only one floor) The type soil under your house would also determine support pad size and also can be found in the code book. The residential code's do a lot of the engineering work for people concerning common residential housing.

I still don't know what the I beams and 10 columns have to do with your wall removal. Were the 1st floor joist undersized and bouncy with a lot of deflection?
Brandon Ring
Original Author
last year
Hey Kevin. Thanks for the reply. I think we're on the same page.

I had the I beams professionally installed due to undersized joists and deflection. They were 17' spans of rough cut 2x8 on 16" centers.

There are only 2 columns that I've built. The number 10 was describing the number of "2 by" pressure treated wood blocks nailed together between the joists. 10 of these blocks are approximately the length of the 16" block. These are tightly positioned between the subfloor and columns I have built.

The idea being that the LVL is supported by the "post" that rests on the subfloor which rests on the blocking which rests on the column which rests on the footings.
kevin9408
last year
last modified: last year
Brandon there are 5 basic classifications of soil in the IRC for residential foundation with a bearing pressure from 12,000 PSF (foot, not inches) all the way down to 1,500 PSF. He is the CODE (here it is) and the values are listed in R401.4.1 table with the class of material for each.

Just dig down and determine what kind of soil you have, and it doesn't take an engineer to tell you this. I'm kind of thinking your pad size is on the small size to carry the load but I don't know your soil type or total load. It can be easily figured out using the same code book, and I do believe you may have the capability to read and figure it out. Again It's not too hard and they give you the weights of building materials to figure dead load and a section to determine other load values and how to spread out the load over load points.

Like I said before the code book has included a lot of the engineering values used in common construction, use it and you'll be ok.

Question on load bearing.

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Brandon Ring
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Question on load bearing.

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Brandon RingOriginal Author

RappArchitecture

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Joseph Corlett, LLC

charles kidder

Brandon RingOriginal Author

kevin9408

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