Interesting, I never knew there were salmon in the Great Lakes. I can't imagine it would taste the same as salmon that spend the majority their lives in salt water, which is the most common.

What fish (and other animals) eat in turn affects their flavor as food. Even "farmed" salmon, the better types of which can be quite good, are raised in salt water.

Salmon hatch, spawn and reproduce in freshwater.

I’ve done a lot of salmon fishing in the rivers in British Columbia.

Some while back I was reading about some of the problem with salmon fish farms in salt water pens. One article described how some Scandinavians were having great results by somehow in a nearby net pen, raising a series of fish, so, as in nature thee was a sort of parasite food chain. I proably save it, but long gone on some hard disk with other minutia of my curiousity about everything.

Hears a question: I have seen culinary road shows, I guess from scotland? that feature Atlantic Char. They sound delicious and I would like to try a fresh one. Why don’t I see them in the stores? Are they very perishable or very expensive? It sounded as though char were similar to salmon.

A fish I used to catch and prepare and ook a lot of when a kid was ”tinker” mackerel. We used to grill them with simple salt and pepper over wood coals. Delicious. Sweet meat and they have some darker meat sections and have good oils. Bluefish are somewhat like that. Best gfrilled over coals or baked in the oven, prepared simply. They would probabl;y be good smoked.

Maybe I should get a salt water fishing license. (Used to be none was needed.)

"Salmon hatch, spawn and reproduce in freshwater."

Yes they do. And, as I said in my comment, they mature and then then spend the majority of their lives in salt water. The last bit of fresh water existence is short and when they go upstream to spawn and die. I believe most salmon caught commercially sold in stores and served in restaurants is caught in ocean waters and never have that last sojourn in fresh water. So the flavor is what results from years of living in salt water and eating other salt water fish and animals.

The effect of their food on flavor is not the only effect, it affects the color too. Farmed salmon that has different diets than wild are given specific chemicals in their food to redden their flesh. Rather than the pinkish/red color, it would otherwise be nearly white.

Ever see the ”salmofan” — iI may have the name wrong. It’s a fan like colorchart to show what colors a fish market can order their salmon fillets.

Salmofan — https://www.dsm.com/anh/products-and-services/tools/digital-salmofan.html

https://www.dsm.com/anh/products-and-services/tools/salmofan.html

That's interesting, petalique. I followed the links and note that this system (and the product it's used with) relates to the artificial coloration of farmed salmon only. Wild caught salmon is whatever color it is.

Petalique, I can’t tell the difference between smoked saltwater caught salmon and smoked freshwater caught salmon.

I have found that ocean caught salmon to be stronger (fishy) flavoured and freshwater caught salmon much milder if they are not smoked. Both are delicious, though. And of course it depends on the type of salmon.

That’s right, Elmer. I remembered it from years ago and thought it fit into your comments about the farmed and wild. I have not read about farmed fish for years. I believe that there is a difference in the sort or type of omega fatty acids.

Fish farming nd controlling the live farmed fish is and has been very controversial. It’s complex. Farmed fish can escape, mix and breed with other fish; can have parasites, on and on.

I don’t suppose there is enough, sustainable wild salmon to supply the market demand.

(oh, okay, I’ll sacrifice and have lobster and rock crab instead) <—— except, lobster isn’t as good for us.

Roxol, I don’t think I am experienced enough to tell.

A year or so ago, or grocery store had something like Wild caught Alaskan salmon on sale. I think that was the one. It tasted very wild, alright. Maybe I was getting so sissy-candy-fake-fished that the real deal was like someone suddenly eating a chunk or honest cheddar after getting used to Velveeta.

There is a certain type of dry, cold smoked salmon that i like. From Scotland, perhaps. I ordered “lox” once, thinking it would be similar. Sorry if I offend anyone, but I did not find it pleasant. Long time ago. I recollect it having a slimy mouth feel and a strong, disagreeable taste. I could not finish it. I was at a deli. I had friends that raved about bagels with cream cheese and lox. I love those real deli bagels, however, and cream cheese is yummy. But that ?brined wet salmon — no.

"I can’t tell the difference between smoked saltwater caught salmon and smoked freshwater caught salmon."

Freshwater caught salmon is enroute to their deaths and, I believe, stop eating when they leave salt water. So they've expended some portion of the energy reserves (in the form of body fats) stored up for the trip and would have less body fat. Commercially caught wild salmon, not so much so.

I can very much tell the taste difference between wild caught salmon and farm raised salmon. Farm raised salmon is oilier - not in a sense that's better or worse, just different in that way. The same difference exists for smoked salmon as between the two sources. In Europe, fish served and sold as "smoked salmon" is almost exclusively farmed. Costco in my area sells both types, we alternate which we buy.

No fish should taste fishy. That's a sign of it not being fresh or improper handling.

For those with limited knowledge about salmon or simply wanting to know more, I recommend Mark Kurlansky's book "Salmon". Just as with his book "Cod", his focused research produced a book with interesting insights and some concerning facts about the current state of the world's salmon population. One fact I found interesting is that there is no or essentially no commercial salmon fishing in Europe. Wild salmon became nearly extinct (though with efforts to bring it back) and commercial fishing for it is not permitted. Rather than the 5 different types more familiar to those of us with access Pacific salmon (of which 3 predominate in fresh and frozen forms, the other two more for canning and other uses), salmon sold in Europe is usually called "Atlantic salmon" and is farmed unless from elsewhere.

The book Cod is also quite good. I recommend both.

Maybe it was just strong and slimy tasting. Yes, I know fishy smelling fish or counters is from bacteria.

Thanks for the recommendations, Elmer.

If you really want to try something special in "salmon", try steelhead trout, which looks a lot like a pacific salmon in fresh water, but is actually a rainbow trout.....Rainbow trout that live in saltwater, and migrate to freshwater to spawn, like salmon - but they can spawn multiple times, unlike salmon. Cooked, they have a texture more like salmon, but a flavour more like rainbow trout. I prefer steelhead to either salmon or trout.

I used to be able to eat lox. Just like with other foods, there's good lox and disgusting lox. Slimy sounds nasty, but lox is supposed to be moist.

Petalique, when I say fishy, I mean briny. They taste like the ocean, which is not a bad thing. 🙂

A freshwater fish, just pulled out of a river or lake has a different taste. Very mild and quite wonderful.

Sorry petalique, I missed your later comments while writing too long a comment myself.

There are many ways to preserve salmon. Of what's called "smoked", I know of two styles - the thinly sliced kind and the hunk kind. I think one may be called dry smoked and the other wet but I'm not sure and don't know which is which. Of the sliced kind, there are then wild caught and farmed, they taste different. A delicious type of preserved salmon is Scandinavia (or maybe just Norwegian) in origin and called Gravlax. We got some of the hunk kind at Costco not too long ago and I think it was about $25 a pound.

I think of the 5 types of Pacific salmon, 3 are most prized eaten fresh (or thawed from frozen), that being Chinook (aka King), Sockeye, and Coho. The other two are considered less tasty and less desirable types and less commonly sold in markets - these are Pink Salmon and Chum. Perhaps you encountered one of these two at the fish counter.

Salmon is seasonal, flavor ranges by geography, and not all taste consistently one way though there is some resemblance with those of the same type. Any off or too strong flavors suggest improper handling or not as fresh as could be.

There's lox, which is a cold-smoked cured salmon, and there's gravlax, with is the cured salmon without cold smoking. Gravlax is very easy to make at home - cover the fish pieces in a 50:50 mixture of salt and sugar (plus other seasonings if you like, maybe pepper or dill), wrap in film (or put in a zipper bag) and refrigerate it under pressure (weighted) in the fridge for 2-3 days, turning it every 12 hours or so. Then rinse, pat dry, slice, and serve.

Yes, sorry. Hot and cold, not wet and dry. Thanks. The dill flavoring is essential to gravlax in my experience rather than optional.

Thanks, Toronto vet.

Hot-smoked salmon is called kippered salmon where I come from, and is in chunks rather than sliced. Lox, while a term often used for different kinds of cold-smoked salmon, is actually salt-cured rather than smoked, and is much saltier than Nova Scotia salmon, which is what most 'lox' actually is.

Here's more than you probably wanted to know about the different kinds: https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/deli-salmon-explained

I love smoked salmon. I meant to buy a couple on Saturday and completely forgot. grrrrrr I smoke any meat. Hamburgers, pork chops, steak. Anything you put on a grill you can smoke. The guy who sold us our smoker also smokes his pizza! This is the smoker I use:

Bradley Smoker

Smoked shrimp or prawns. It was my mother's favorite. Keep the temperature down to almost a cold smoke. Devein but leave in the shells and use a stronger wood like oak or peel and smoke with a more delicate wood like apple or maple. Either way, keep an eye on them as they can cook very quickly. There are a plethora of smoked shrimp recipes with all sorts of seasonings and herbs. Mom preferred hers unadulterated i.e. just beautiful ultra fresh shrimp kissed with smoke.

Dad's favorite was smoked Oysters Rockefeller. Mine is smoked Maine lobster.

On another note, try smoking sweet red peppers. Yum!

I will also register a vote for smoked Turkey Breast. Just be sure to brined it for a day before smoking.

Moosemac — thanks. I bet peppers are good, and eggplant.

Moose, wouldn’t smoking really trash a lobster? If they ever get back down to $4.99/Lb, I might try it. (time to start a ruor that it’s toxic /s).

Folks, I read some article somewhere that said with the high prie of brisket, some were smoking chuck. hmmm.

Bookwoman, I read that article. Thnx. more later.

Deb_Ab, that looks like quite a rig.

One could get carried away, Smoked:

Spam

Butter

Coconuts

candied hot honey sriracha smoked pecans, peanuts, almonds,

{BTW, I craved and caved on honey Sriracha peanuts —$28! Before they were delivered, I began tinkerig with my own recipe. Pretty good.}

smoked banana, milk, seaweed, the rabbits in my gardens, chipmunks, walnut bread, fried onions or shallots.

I don't prefer long smoked meat (the kind when cut open has a color ring, often pink or red, just under the outer sides). I do like meat grilled (or I would say barbecued) over a hot wood or charcoal fire. I've had many kinds of regional BBQ in a number of places in Texas and in other Southern state locations and I can't say I like it that much. Food cooked over an open fire develops the browned exterior and some smoky flavor. It's probably what I'm accustomed to. I like rubs and marinades on meat but not much of what people call barbeque sauce. One exception, I use it sparingly at the end when barbequing pork spareribs but not on anything else.

River caught wild salmon will be softer than ocean caught. How soft depends on how far up river it is. You want to catch it as close to the mouth as possible. The real difference in flavor is in the type. I am a fan of Coho(silver). The Native people out on the pacific coast make a dried salmon from Coho. It is sort of like jerky. Wonderful stuff.

You can smoke hard boiled eggs. They are really good. We mostly smoke Turkey though. I use an 8 hour pack of fresh herbs (lots of sage) pepper and kosher salt-no longer than 12 as it gets too salty. The about 8 hours of cold smoke. Bake to bring up to temp-maybe 1 1/2 hr to 2. It cooks faster than an untreated turkey. A Whole bird is pretty but just the breast makes better sense. We have an actual smoke house with an old barrel stove for the wood and a long chimney to cool the smoke.

Elmer

Featured snippet from the web

Great lakes salmon have been a staple of Michigan sport and recreational fishing for over 50 years. Originally introduced by the state's Department of Natural Resources to curb the problem of an exploding alewife population, salmon have lived comfortably in the Great Lakes ever since the early 1970s. My dad always caught salmon and smoked it. Delicious!!!

I cold smoke sushi grade salmon. No curing salt (nitrIte, nitrAte) used.

dcarch

Judy Cook, my experience is that the flavor of most foods can vary significantly within a given type depending in turn on its food and or location. For salmon living in the Great Lakes, both the freshwater environment as well as its food sources are so significantly different from those of ocean salmon that the flavor surely must be substantially different. I haven't had Great Lakes salmon so I can't say from experience, but I can't imagine the flavor is similar.

Edit to add - I've had steelhead and don't care for it. Nor trout nor any other freshwater fish.

Judy, another snippet from the web.

“Taste-wise, freshwater fish usually do not taste any different, although many anglers would say that they tend to have a milder flavour. If you are not a fan of the “fishy” taste, then freshwater salmon may be perfect for you! Salmon is a delicious fish, and there is no end to the great recipes available for them.“

I’ve never tasted salmon from the Great Lakes but I do know salmon from BC lakes and rivers is excellent. Oh, and I’ve had fresh salmon from Scottish rivers as well. Very good.

My favourite freshwater fish is pickerel (walleye) and perch. Throw it in a pan with a bit of butter and onions and oh my!

"Taste-wise, freshwater fish usually do not taste any different, although many anglers would say that they tend to have a milder flavour. If you are not a fan of the “fishy” taste,"

For this snippet and the one before, good form suggests including the source. Who is this, what is the context of the comment and what site was it on?

I'm not sure what this quote is trying to say. "Freshwater fish usually do not taste any different...". Than what?

The word "fishy suggests an off, pungent odd smell or taste. Fresh fish that has been properly handled neither smells fishy when raw nor tastes nor smells fishy when cooked. Each fish has its own flavor.

The fresh water fish that we typically eat (walleye, crappie, white bass, and catfish) are at their best when taken out of colder water below ~60F. This time of year when the surface temps are in the mid 80s I usually release everything I catch and usually switch to large mouth bass fishing when they are hitting on top water lures.

My apologies for not including the source of my quote. Some folks say they are only interested in first hand knowledge and I didn’t think the source would matter.🙄 This is where it is from. I agree with it.

https://www.bradleysmoker.com/blog/2020/08/11/top-tips-for-freshwater-salmon-fishing/

Anyhow, Lonejack, I agree that dead of summer fishing is not the best. I do believe that the northern Alberta and Alberta/BC mountain lakes and streams tend to be colder.

We used to go ice fishing when the kids were small and could fish well into April. 🙂

eta Maybe you can get some mountain fishing in when you are in Calgary.

roxsol, I'm not sure what opinion you're trying to express. If you think ocean-dwelling compared to fresh water dwelling salmon have the same flavor and are indistinguishable when cooked, you're welcome to that view but you won't convince me.

No doubt, Elmer😀

I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just know what I know.

Friendly conversation.

What is it that you "know"?

Right now, I know that you won’t stop until you are told you are right, Elmer.

You are right. There. Happy?

You’re so funny. 😀

Brisket sold out, so DH got a 10 Lb bone-in Pork butt-shoulder.

We don’t want it very sugary, or very salty.

I guess I should put some dry rub seasoning on it overnight. We are rushing around tending to other tasks. If it’s got a bone (not much) ”in” and has fat and a fat cap, I guess we can put just about anything (?) within reason on it?

I am open to Ideas. I hope it shrinks because that is one chunk of pork butt.

I could ? go ”savory route — sage, thyme, garlic, paepper, but of salt, some cayenne

Or, the BBQ-ish route: ? BBQ sauce? Or, a combo of dry mustard, brown sugar, pepper, salt, cayenne, some vinegar?

Or, is there an Asian theme?

Cook until internal temp is ? 180? 190 deg F?

Cook slow-ish to give time for collagen to break down?

As, always, pressed for time, want flavor, but I don’t have a lot of time to fiddle too too much.

I will make some of Annie’s Cole Slaw.

Wish I could locate my quarter sheet pan. Will use apple wood chips.

I appreciate all the input. I hope to get the book on SALMON. Elmer.

❓BTW, what cut of pork is Italian prosciutto made from?

Ham-prosciutto is ham. You cant make anything close to prosciutto yourself. The process is outside of your skill and equipment set. Highly controlled process.

Take the extra fat cap off of your shoulder.

Keep the rub simple and try not to adulterate the pork butt. Louie Mueller BBQ in Taylor Texas (est. 1949) is considered one of the best BBQ places in Texas and all they use is 90% black pepper and 10% salt as a rub (full cover) with no injection, brine, spritz or wrap.

Goldee's BBQ outside Fort Worth is ranked number one by Texas monthly magazine and the rub is course black pepper followed with a mix of Lawry's seasoning salt and beef Bullion, and won't sit more than 30 minutes before going on the pit. The point is KISS. The secrets of the pit masters are how they cook the meat, when and how long they hit the meat with heavy smoke, times and temperature and to the end with a shake. But neither on of these 2 top favorite BBQ joints wrap, spritz, injects or brine their meat, and the pits are just simple offset pass through smokers, using post oak wood and nothing fancy.

A company I worked for in Texas back in the early 80's as the facility engineer did things different than the two retail outlets mentioned above but still kept the rub simple. Put the flavors you desire in the sauce, but good BBQ can be eaten dry with incredible flavor alone.

This company smoked 40,000 lbs of brisket and 10,000 lbs of pork butts and 3 to 4 thousand pounds of whole chicken a week. They pulled the pork and chicken, diced the brisket, added sauce, tubed it, froze it, and sent it to food distribution companies around the south. It was incredibly popular in the south but never took hold in northern markets. The internal temperature of the pork butts where I worked was brought up to 200 or 205, I can't remember exactly. You need to get it above 160-170 degrees to break down the collagen but the final determination is the wiggle, or how it bounces in your hands when shaken. This company never wrapped or spritzed the meat but did inject and brine in a very large vacuum tumbler with simple seasonings, but didn't do a rub. Smoked the meat in 1200 lb rotisserie smokers fired with live oak wood. Apple wood works good and my preference when I smoke in a simple offset smoker. Pellet smokers always have a strange taste to me and also not a big fan of electric smokers.

Best smoked fish comes from the north shore of lake superior and are fresh water salmon but I like the greasy smoked lake trout better. To be fair any smoked fish is great and even had smoked sucker and carp out of the Mississippi in Keokuk Iowa that tasted good, Give me a plate of deep fried crappies and sunfish and I'll pass on the salmon please.

Roxsol

One of the Canadian Pacific people I have been working closely with is an avid angler. I'm sure he would gladly take me mountain fishing when I am up there if I stay over a weekend.

So far the CP people have been coming down to Kansas City for meetings but there has been talk of some of us traveling to Calgary before winter sets it. Time is running out for that.

LoneJack, the Calgary Stampede is on right now so it’s maybe not the best time to be there. 🤠

But yes, winter can hit anytime. :) Maybe you’ll be lucky and it will be chinooking when you’re there.

Just a suggestion but try doing the pork as is. Although you may have to tie it up depending on how it was cut. That way you will know if you like smoked pork then experiment the next time. Plan on a sauce or dry rub sprinkle for each person to apply if they wish.

Meat normally has natural salts in it. When I used to do briskets I sometimes found the outside area very salty.

Prosciutto is a dry cured ham that usually takes years to make, with salt, pressure, and time. It is a careful and complicated process to do it properly (safely), and you can't reproduce it at home.

Yes about the prosciutto. I know it is very complex. Even American companies cannot get it right. I drew a blank on the portion of the pig. So leg it is.

I wish I could indulge (often) in the real deal, prosciutto di Parma. One of those high end food markets sells delicious PdP and such. The fellow behind the counter told me that the store bought an expensive special slicing machine just for the prosciutto. He offered me a slice to sample. So wonderful.

I once worked with a young man who wasfrom someplace in (?southern) Italy. He told me that in the village he was from, most household would ndo something like this to make their smoked ham. The ham would be salted and hung high, above a wood burning fireplace for a long while. That’s about all I got out of him.

I often have wondered about that cyst forming parasite and how that concern is dealt with is the ham is salted and smoked, but not subjected to high temperatures. Does the salt destroy the organism?

The Pork butt (shoulder) we got is quasi? vac wrapped.

So, back to Kevin’s approach, I will keep it simple. I only have an electric smoker with a digital readout. I will use apple chips and will try to use two cabled temperature probes. One to measure the internal temperature of the pork butt. The other will be placed through a sacrified potato to keep the probe in the air inside the compartmment — not touching any hot metal.

I will trim down some of the fat cap and will put some pan beneath the pork to catch the drippings. There is also a pan for water. I don’t know how accurate the digital readout is on the Masterbuilt smoker we have. Thus the second probe held by the potato.

I will smoke cook the pork butt until the internal temperature reads t least 190 deg F, but Keven, you think ~200 deg F internal pork butt temp to be sure the collagen breaks down.

Now, my question is what oven/smoker box temperature should I aim for? I have heard the mantra ”low and slow,” and I know not to rush good things sometimes, but I hope I won’t be having to smoke cook that 10 lb. pork butt for a whole day or overnight.

We have black bear around and I hope they will respect my privacy if not the heat and smoke from the Masterbuilt. (Question, in general, does anyone know if Black bears shy away from things like firepits?)

I understand the length of cook times depends on how long it takes for the butt to reach 195 05 200 deg F internally. That smoker must have a limit of how hot it will get (we are in Southern New England) and won’t likely get abouve 200?? deg F?? Temp outside today and tomorrow in high 70’s to 80’s F. Overnight, outside temp will be about 66-68 deg F.

Oh, and maifleur brought up a consideration. Leav it loose or tie it? It has some bone in it. I don’t think I’d get it rolled firmly like a rolled, bonelss roast.

Oh, here are photos of roast in package.

Ten Lb.

Looks very fatty. Are they all like this?

$1/pound

Thanks again.

Re smoked salmon. A few years ago a PBS program was about an Alaskan (Inuit?) who smoked his fish in a shed light structure with some sort of a wood fire, low, steady going a ways beneath where he pegged his many salmom. IIRC, after some while (weeks or months) he took the salmon down and it was stiff. It seems stiff and darkened and reminded me of jerky.

So, some variety of cold smoking.

First I will bore you with the history of smoked meat. The idea was to DRY the meat. It would be hung up in the rafters of houses when they didn't have chimneys as the smoke kept the flies off. Early chimneys were wide all the way up and people hung meat off to the side. Smoke as a flavor was accidental to the process. Salt or later sugar was used to draw out moisture before the hanging. Prosciutto and its ilk are dried. Virginia ham is our version. It takes a long time and perfect control.

Trichinosis is the disease you are worried about. Curing and smoking does not harm Trichinosis.

Cooking to a temperature of 140 degrees will. You can freeze pork for about a month and that will kill it as well but it is very rare in commercially produced meat. Europeans routinely eat dried and or smoked pork without cooking it. but I am not sure if I would trust our system.

I think you are making a good choice to start with a hot smoke. Cold smoke is dicier and you do that when it is cold outside

I dont know your smoker. I have a smoke house-an actual small building and I use it to smoke to taste and then finish the cooking in the oven. You can over smoke food. We often make Pastrami from corned beef and my husband has over smoked a couple of times. If you want to use a commercially corned product to smoke you can soak it in changes of water to get rid of excess salt before you dry it in the fridge and then hang to smoke. Dont you have a book to go with your smoker? Too much smoke and it tastes tarry. Some people like that though. 8-10 hrs is usually good.

I tried searching for the bear question. I knew it wasn't a thing when my first search turned up plenty on how to smoke your bear meat but no smokers raided by bears. I finally turned up this: Most bears do not associate the smell of cooking meat with food. Bears are usually afraid of the heat that a smoker or grill gives off. Some bears may have tasted cooked meat before and be intrigued, but most are not interested. (Under the heading bbq science and safety at Totally Smokin’ https://www.totallysmokin.com/does-smoking-meat-attract-bears/ )

Thanks, patricia. What you wrote was very interesting. Not boring in the least.

I would not like the pork to be too smoked or too smokey. One of my sibs suggested pre cooking it first or pressure cooking. I do want the collagen to break down.

The smoker was a CL freebie. But I did look up the manual online and might have saved it. DH looked up the model #.

I love reading but begn to doze off. I probably need more sleep. Maybe I’m like TFG and need little colored poctures and video.

I am pretty tolerant and don’t mind experimenting when cooking, especially when the cash outlay is modest.

I’m thinking, based on suggestions here, that if I keep seasoning simple, have the heat high enough to cook, but not too high; keep the smoke in check somehow, and get the internal temperature to 190 –205 deg F., I will be okay.

If it is not tasty, we can deep bury compost it, trash bin it, or peel any char off it, add milk to it, and feed it to the opossum. But I think we will eat, then share or freeze any leftovers.

Unless it shrinks a lot, that is a huge amount of meat.

Maifleur, your idea of adding seasonings later, was one my sibling had — I could make some char siu -ish pork by adding hoi sin or bean paste.

It seems that Black bears invite themselves into screen porches or kitchen when someone has left a sweet berry pie top cool next to a sceened window. I have had black bear just outside a closed window because I had foolishly left either a BOS or humming bird feeder up.