Insecticides and fungicides may be dangerous in different ways. That does not necessarly mean that one is less toxic than the other (in the long run). Some pesticide problems may not show up for many years and in a way unexpected such that that "route" was never tested for. The following recent research scientific paper is just one example of "the unexected/not tested". Title: Combined exposure to endocrine disrupting pesticides impairs parturition, causes pup mortality and affects sexual differentiation in rats Authors: P. R. Jacobsen, S. Christiansen, J. Boberg, C. Nellemann and U. Hass Authors affiliation: Department of Toxicology and Risk Assessment, National Food Institute, Technical University of Denmark, Søborg, Denmark Published in: International Journal of Andrology, volume 33, pages 434��"442, (2010). ABSTRACT: "Risk assessment is currently based on the no observed adverse effect levels (NOAELs) for single compounds. Humans are exposed to a mixture of chemicals and recent studies in our laboratory have shown that combined exposure to endocrine disrupters can cause adverse effects on male sexual development, even though the doses of the single compounds are below their individual NOAELs for anti-androgenic effects. Consequently, we have initiated a large project where the purpose is to study mixture effects of endocrine disrupting pesticides at low doses. In the initial range-finding mixture studies, rats were gavaged during gestation and lactation with five doses of a mixture of the fungicides procymidone, mancozeb, epoxyconazole, tebuconazole and prochloraz. The mixture ratio was chosen according to the doses of each individual pesticide that produced no observable effects on pregnancy length and pup survival in our laboratory and the dose levels used ranged from 25 to 100% of this mixture. All dose levels caused increased gestation length and dose levels above 25% caused impaired parturition leading to markedly decreased number of live born offspring and high pup perinatal mortality. The sexual differentiation of the pups was affected at 25% and higher as anogenital distance was affected in both male and female offspring at birth and the male offspring exhibited malformations of the genital tubercle, increased nipple retention, and decreased prostate and epididymis weights at pup day 13. The results show that doses of endocrine disrupting pesticides, which appear to induce no effects on gestation length, parturition and pup mortality when judged on their own, induced marked adverse effects on these endpoints in concert with other pesticides. In addition, the sexual differentiation of the offspring was affected. This as well as the predictability of the combination effects based on dose-additivity modelling will be studied further in a large dose-response study." -------------------------------------------- The first part of the INTRODUCTION SECTION of the full paper may be of interest: "Animal laboratory experiments have shown that in utero exposure to endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs) including some pesticides can cause adverse effects on male reproductive development (Foster, 2006; Gray et al., 2006; Hass et al., 2007; Metzdorff et al., 2007; Christiansen et al., 2008). Individual pesticides alone have so far not been shown to contribute to adverse human effects at relevant exposure levels. However, some studies indicate increased prevalence of cryptorchidism and decreased penile length in sons of women working as gardeners or Many EDCs have been found as mixtures in humans (Blount et al., 2000; Swan et al., 2005), including children (Brock et al., 2002; Swan et al., 2005; Main et al., 2006). Damgaard et al. (2006) observed an association between congenital cryptorchidism and the levels of certain organochlorine pesticides in mothers’ milk (Damgaard et al., 2006). Earlier, Pierik et al. (2004) identified paternal exposures to pesticides and smoking as factors associated with these congenital malformations. These initial observations in epidemiological studies points in the same direction as laboratory experiments with oestrogenic or anti-androgenic chemicals in which substantial mixture effects occurred even though each individual chemical was present at low, ineffective doses (Rajapakse et al., 2002; Silva et al., 2002; Hass et al., 2007; Metzdorff et al., 2007; Christiansen et al., 2008, 2009). Some pesticides such as vinclozolin and procymidone antagonize competitively the androgen receptor (AR) binding of androgens and affect mainly the reproductive development in male offspring (Kelce et al., 1997; Ostby et al., 1999). Other pesticides such as mancozeb and propineb act mainly via disruption of the thyroid hormones and are mainly suspected to disrupt brain development (Hurley, 1998; Hass & Axelstad, Personal Communication). Our detailed research on prochloraz, combined with studies on other azole fungicides such as tebuconazole and epoxyconazole, indicates that these pesticides have the ability to react through several endocrine disrupting mechanisms, and to induce various endocrine disrupting effects (Vinggaard et al., 2005a,b; Taxvig et al., 2007). We have shown that prochloraz induced anti-androgenic effects in rats in vivo in a Hershberger test as well as in a developmental toxicity study (Vinggaard et al., 2002, 2005a). In addition, our studies show that prochloraz increases gestation length and indicate that prochloraz may also affect thyroid hormone levels and cause effects on the sexually dimorphic development of the brain (Vinggaard et al., 2002, 2005a). Both tebuconazole and epoxyconazole increase gestation length and pup mortality and furthermore, these pesticides virilise female pups, and affect steroid hormone levels in foetuses and ⁄ or dams (Taxvig et al., 2007)."

I just hope the bling-fashion passes soon. It looks trashy to my but what do I know? I'm a slightly overweight, 51 one year old with frizzy hair and bad knees. LOL Those hoops earring scare me. I worry they're gonna get something hung up on it and tear their ears. LOL My girls do love what they do and I love it too. I've learned it is far more satisfying watching my kids compete than it ever was for me. My husband and I have GOT to get out of the habit of making horses for our girls. LOL We've got two five year old horses I've started on the barrels and I don't know why I did. LOL Custer said, when I told him I had Booger and Nancy patterned good, 'What are you thinking? I thought these two horses were for OUR old age?" LOL I just saw where Eye-Oh-Way Girl FINALLY bought her Ashley a horse. It's about time woman! That poor little girl has begged for...how many years...?... for a horse? I was just about to call child services on you, you know! LOL Thanks for the kudos guys! You make me feel good! Somewhere I have a picture of me, taken by a very good friend, last summer at a working cowhorse show. I look pretty darn good in it but she is a very talented photographer...LOL When I find it I'll post. Lori

ditto, glad you had a good time. Fleetwood Mac began life as a traditional blues band, with Peter Green as the lead guitarist. They did many old blues songs in their repertoire. Green wrote Black Magic Woman. He left, the band went through a metamorphosis to pop/folk by adding Buckingham and Nicks (who had their own fledgling band as a duo) and left the blues genre behind. That change was almost as dramatic as if Diana Ross and the Supremes decided to drop Motown and do California surf music like the Beach Boys instead. The story of Buckingham being dropped is murky but I remember hearing interviews with Nicks, even going back some years, saying that the good of the band as a whole was far more important than the good of any individual and that complete dedication to that was essential. And that Buckingham didn't always have that attitude. Yeah, I know, decades of baggage between those two too. They may have tired of his negative attitude. In addition to Finn, they also added a guitarist from Tom Petty's band, he too a well respected musician.

Ooh just reminded me in the mid seventies ( my best guess- 74-76) I saw Patti Smith in some very very small venue which might have been a basement of someplace. She spoke quite a bit and I can recall she said that Baudelaire was the first Rastafarian. It was all over my head, but I knew I was witnessing someone very special. I also remember seeing Bette Midler at the Copacabana maybe a year after I saw Patti Smith. I was absolutely astounded at her energy. She really put on an amazing show and the venue was really small enough to have real banter going on with the audience. She was so sharp and quick- kind of how she comes across but it was so authentic.