Please comment on kitchen layout

last year

last modified: last year

Hi I'm working on a kitchen remodel and trying to figure out the right flow. I know I want the sink under the window as it currently is but trying to figure out the best place for pantry, fridge, appliance garage, coffee station, etc. I'm hoping that even by eliminating all uppers that aren't connected to a floor to ceiling pantry or appliance garage, we'll still have enough storage yet feel more open.

@Buehl @rebunky You had some great comments on imsuzz's post a few days ago so thought I'd tag you here.

Thanks!

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Comments (17)

User
last year
last modified: last year
Hire a kitchen designer. Lots of expensive technical issues moving anything around. You need expert help and a large budget.
nyssie
Original Author
last year
I did. Asking for feedback or thoughts.
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Comments (9)
Could the range go on the same wall as the sink? I think that could give you a more logical work flow, better prep space, and also, of course, it would make it easier and cheaper to vent the range. Speaking of the sink, a lot of people here have commented in various threads that unless you wash all your dishes by hand, a single-bowl sink is a lot more useful than a double-bowl sink. I agree, having lived with both. If you went with, say, a 25" or 27" single-bowl sink (which is LARGE--it's a lot of sink space to have; compare it to the dinky 14"-15" bowls you'd get on a 33" double-bowl)... anyway, with a 25" or 27" single-bowl, you would have a lot more room on that sink wall to put your range. And that would create a very logical work flow: food comes out of fridge, goes to sink if it needs to be washed (and to counter between sink and range if it doesn't), then on to the range to be cooked. If you have guests and want to talk with them while you cook, then food would be prepped on the island--for most people the prepping part takes longer than the actual cooking part, in the sense that you don't just stand there facing the range for half an hour. A lot of cooking time is just "leaving the food on the stove" time--you don't have to stand there watching pasta boil, for example--so it can be more sociable to have your prep space facing or beside guests than to have your range facing or beside them. So this layout would give you a lot more prep space on the island, as well as a more logical workflow. If this idea intrigues you, you would probably want to put the DW on the fridge wall (or if you have a basement so the plumbing is easy, maybe even in the island). Putting it on the fridge wall would mean moving that trash drawer and the cabinet beside it, but the trash drawer would be more useful if it were closer to the sink and/or range anyway. (Basically, trash is more useful the closer it is to where you prep or where you clean up.) And the cabinet beside it could go into the island.
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Comments (10)
Thanks for providing a full floor plan, however you didn't answer my questions about whether the window could move or a wall be removed. I realize the footprint can't change but perhaps the above structural changes are possible. I went ahead and drew up an idea based on that possibility. I moved the fridge to the top wall, shifted DW and sink over, widened the window and reduced the depth of the wall next to the fridge so that the fridge doors will be able to open wide enough to pull out fridge drawers. The range stayed where it was. I added a 36" pull-out pantry cab to its right, eliminating the bottom of the U. That move plus removing the wall at the lower end of the opening to the LR, allowed me to create a longer island, which made space for a larger prep sink. The size of sink that you'd be able to put in a 15" cab is a bar sink, not really useful for prep work, much less draining a pot of pasta. The longer island and deep curve should provide enough room for 3 stools at the counter. I did a little organizational labeling for you but feel free to change things as you need to fit your family's needs. I also shifted the entry from the foyer to the left, directing the view from the front door towards the LR windows and backyard. The aisle between the bottom end of the aisle and wall is 36", which is narrow than recommended (42" aisles for 1-butt kitchens, 48" aisles for 2-butt kitchens) but since there's only one narrow cab opening into this aisle, I decided it was likely workable. It wasn't until I was ready to post this plan that I realized I forgot to allow for a MW. You don't show one in your plan but I assume you intend to have one. You could make a space for a MW in the pantry, like this: [Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Chagrin Falls Kitchen & Bath Designers Kitchen & Bath Etc. Or this: [Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Pensacola Interior Designers & Decorators In Detail Interiors Or this: [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Gardena Kitchen & Bath Designers The French Tradition
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Comments (13)
Echoing others... Move the DW to the left of the sink - it should not be between the range and the sink - that's your Primary Prep Zone right now. [Even if it wasn't the primary (e.g., if you had a sink in the island), the DW would still be in the way of a secondary prep zone] Remove seating in front of the range - for seats there, you need at least a 60" aisle and you don't have that. It's especially important b/c that's the range...but any aisle with seating + appliances or counters should at least be 54" wide. 60" is better and should be the minimum if the aisle contains a range/cooktop/rangetop. Fill out the island on the range side with cabinets. In addition... Fill out the island on the other side as well and add 16" - 1" for the decorative door/end panel on the cabinets + 15" for seating overhang. If you can't fit that b/c of what might be behind the seats (if a wall, you need 44" behind the seats), then make the counter flush with the end so you still get more work space. If you cannot even fit that, then you might want to rethink your seating on that side - but you could do something similar to what you show right now...you still need 44" b/w the counter edge and a wall (or 54" if an appliance or work counter). Once you've filled out the island, add 16" to the end to accommodate seating (1" for the decorative door/end panel on the cabinets + 15" for seating overhang). Now that the island is rectangular, you should be able to fit at least 4 seats - 2 on the end (if at least 48" wide) and 2 on the side opposite the range (if the space is at least 48" wide) Optional but useful: Add a prep sink on the island on the range side (facing the range). If you add a prep sink (again, recommended), move the refrigerator to the wall to the right of the range. This will put the refrigerator closer to the range and the Prep Zone on the island (now your Primary Prep Zone) and reduce zone-crossing b/w the refrigerator and Cooking Zone and refrigerator and Prep Zone. Even if you don't add a sink, moving the refrigerator would still be useful because you can now... Add a dish hutch to left of sink & DW for dish storage. This will make putting dishes away very easy as well as locates the dishes so someone setting the table doesn't get in the way of others prepping and cooking - the Dish Storage Zone is outside the Prep & Cooking Zones. Add a trash pullout in the island on the end closest to the the cleanup sink. This will place the trash pullout in the Prep Zone and across from the Cooking Zone where it's most used/needed. It also places it near the Cleanup Zone where it's occasionally needed (yes, desirable!). Island: Range side of island: 1.5" counter overhang + 18" two-bin trash pullout + 18" (minimum) sink base + 36" drawer base + 1" decorative door/end panel + 15" overhang This gives you a 89.5" wide island facing the range. Opposite range side of island: It also allows for 2 seats...
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Comments (23)
Erika, The drawings are well rendered but since you don't have a floorplan with measurements, please make sure that your designer has done this to absolutely accurate scale (including counter depth, aisle width and real world sizes of appliances). A friend of mine had a designer sell her on a beautiful living room arrangement which looked great in the drawing but didn't actually work, leaving her to settle for something that gave her far too little seating. You might be able (depending on measurements!) to put the prep sink and wine chiller in the island, and the other sink and dishwasher on the window side, then build a china cabinet around the window where the wine bar is now. That would take some of the storage necessity out of the island, I think. I know that theory says you have to store your dishes next to the washer to save steps, but I grew up with the carrying the dishes into the breakfast room and it's really not that big a deal (i.e., they should be near either the washer or the table!). Oh, btw, I don't know if you saw the suggestion to put a disposer in the prep sink to make it really useful. Seemed like an important thing to me (who's always had one large sink). If you did the china cabinet thing, it could also house the message center, the toaster, and even snacks and breakfast cereal :)
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Moore4
last year
At first glance, the utility sink and range in corner is a problem
nyssie
Original Author
last year
@Moore4 yes, decided to remove that this morning, so reposted sketch without it.
ljpar
last year
How how tall are you? (You don't really have to answer this question...) For sub zero, you could be looking at 84 inches tall. If you have very high ceilings, and can actually fit a cab above that space, are you tall enough to ever use it? I haven't seen the inside of the cabinet over my current fridge in four years, and it's a standard height (not sub zero) fridge lol.

Also, will you have counter space next to the appliance garage? I would recommend it becasue you'll need landing space for ingredients and tools if you are prepping things like batters, doughs, etc. The elevation of your run looks like you have counter space, but the description of a wall oven on the overhead floorplan indicates floor-to-ceiling cabinets (no counter space). Without a dedicated landing space there, you are going to find it hard to use any of the equipment you are keeping in the appliance garage.
mcarroll16
last year
Is that mud room a primary entrance for your family? If so, that's a lot of traffic funneling through the main prep area. Your kitchen area is tight, so not sure whether there's a fix. It would be great to see an expanded sketch that shows how the living room and dining room connect to each other. That might give people other ideas for how to improve your layout.
Andrea
last year
oils and spices should not be next to the heat of the oven.
rebunky
last year
last modified: last year
How exciting! It is great how you are thinking everything through and planning where each item will go. Agree that posting a to scale sketch of the surrounding rooms, living and dining, helps. Can the entries from the kitchen to either of those spaces be moved around?

Here are a few things off the bat that are bugging me. Most stuff was mentioned already.

The range being way too tight in the corner is a problem for me as well. I would want at the bare minimum a foot of counter from the corner to the cooktop or range.

I have never had a blind corner pull out, but I have read enough on this site about the cons that I would not do that. A super susan would be nice and would give you the extra foot from the corner.

I also see a lack of counter space to work by the appliance garage. With an oven stack there you would have to carry heavy items to somewhere with counter space to work.

On the other hand, if you did the countertop under the microwave as a coffee station, wouldn’t you have to move the coffee pot, etc, off of that counter in order to slide the kitchenaid mixer or other appliances out sideways from the garage? I was picturing them sitting on a rollout tray that slides through that side opening to use. Either way, you cannot really use that counter space for the appliances with coffee stuff there taking up space. Even with it cleared off, once the mixer is there it doesn’t give you much extra countertop to actually work on.

I am sure the dishes and glasses could be rearranged on that tall cabinet by the sink to be accessable, but looking at the drawing I was like, man you would need to be a giant in order to get a glass of water haha!

I will think on it some more, and let you know if I have any ideas.
nyssie
Original Author
last year
Thanks @Andrea, will swap that out with cutting boards and baking sheets and put those in the pantry. @mcarroll16 The kitchen door is not a primary entrance, our front door is. Currently, our kids just throw everything down by the front door including lunch boxes so want a place to hang a jacket, put shoes and hang backpacks. Not a full mud room, something more like this (though no open cubbies at the top)
mcarroll16
last year
If that door isn't your main entrance, could you put a nice storage bench near your front door, and put your appliance garage in that mudroom storage area? Then have standard uppers and lowers next to your wall oven. That gives you a good landing space for things coming out of the oven. Big improvement in safety and convenience. Appliances will have to be carried over to a nearby counter. But that was already an issue with your existing plan.
nyssie
Original Author
last year
@rebunky Here is an updated sketch. Going with a 36" range, I don't need to do wall ovens any longer and it allows me to have some counter space next to the appliance garage. The kitchen aid and or coffee maker would slide out of the appliance garage on the side to leverage the counterspace but then can tuck it away again so it becomes usable space.

@mcarroll16 I'm also including the downstairs as-builts. The upper left is the kitchen, the upper riht is the dining room with built-ins which we're not touching, the middle right is the front door and the rest of the middle is a long odd corridor into the main living space, the lower left is the rest of the living room with a small bathroom, and the lower right is an office/sitting room.
mcarroll16
last year
last modified: last year
Thanks! Sometimes a whole-floor layout presents some easy "silver bullet" fixes. Yours does not. But seeing it does keep me from making a few pointless suggestions. :) Going with a range is a huge improvement. Makes the oven and the appliance garage areas both more functional. I wish there was room to insert a drawer unit between your DW and your fridge. See Joseph Corlett's current "Design Flaw" thread for the reasons why. You could swap your fridge and your appliance garage. But that has downsides too.
nyssie
Original Author
last year
@mcarroll16 Darn it, I keep wishing for a silver bullet to appear in this 1905 house :/

I asked my KD about switching the appliance garage and fridge yesterday and if I recall correctly the reasoning to keep it this way was because of limitations of the fridge door swings (whether french, left or right) as well as wanting to build the appliance garage and drop zone counter deeper and not being hampered by a counter-depth fridge.
mcarroll16
last year
Ah yes. Funny. I was thinking about swapping the fridge and the pantry, and ruled it out because of door clearances. Then completely forgot 30 seconds later and suggested another corner. Doh!
nyssie
Original Author
last year
I guess there's just not that many options in this kitchen :( I could not find Joseph Corlett's discussion "Design Flaw", can you post a link to it?
mcarroll16
last year
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6264541/another-design-flaw#27756157
palimpsest
last year
If you do the 36" Sub zero over and under you don't have to worry about the DW door vs.the refrigerator door, because the freezer is drawers

Please comment on kitchen layout

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