Apothecary

Rosa Mundi

Funny! I just bought this book last week, waiting for it to arrive from Amazon. Rosa Mundi is the only Gallica I have right now. Is there a note about this at HelpMeFind? I DO remember seeing a comment or reference about a "superior" variety of Mundi being introduced in the 19th century. Going look at the entry at HMF now.... Could the original sport have been replaced by another striped Gallica? Here's the reference:

The Rose Annual (The Royal National Rose Society, 1966-1984, 2005-2007)

Book (1975) Page(s) 120.

Humphrey Brooke. The Rosarium of Sangerhausen.
....the gallicas in the collection may be dated between 'Rosa Mundi' (Vibert, 1835 [see footnote] and 'Violacea' (Paul, 1895.

Footnote: This improved form is stated to have replaced the earlier one attributed to L'Obel in 1581.

@User

Wow! Interesting! Despite all my geeking out with rose history books, I had never read that. Vibert 1835…. I‘ve been stuck in the 1500s! Thank you SO much for this very important tidbit of historical info. How did you manage to discover this Sangerhausen piece in the Rose Annual? I need to do a lot more digging on my beloved Gallicas!

If other forum members know more, please chime in, too.

Carol

I haven't seen the original source, but there was a comment in the Rosa Mundi entry that said the 1975 reference was interesting. To me it's implying that the Sangerhausen Mundi came from Vibert and was an improved form that replaced the original one from the 1500s, whatever that means. Did Vibert feel he had a more stable clone of Mundi? Or was it something different altogether? But how do you explain Mundi's tendency to revert to Apothecary? BUT it would explain conflicting things that I've read about Mundi--that it performs better in warm climates than Apothecary, and that it's not as scented. Lots of questions....

And yet anyone who has grown 'Rosa Mundi' for more than ten minutes has witnessed the plant reverting back to what looks like 'Apothercary'. About 1/3 of the vast ocean of 'Mundi' I have is the reversion to plain pink 'Apothecary'.

So, with that knowledge, what was the plant of 'Apothecary' they DNA tested?? I suspect that many (most?) plants of 'Apothecary' sold in this country came from reverted pieces of 'Rosa Mundi', in which case the two should test as identical varieties. How does any one of us know if we have the "real" 'Apothecary' or just the reversion from 'Mundi'?

I think its hard to say what these two plants are/are not with any precision.

Here's part of a graph from the study. Even more bizarre is the China, Cramoisi Superieur. It ended up between the Damasks, Leda and Bernard. How in the world did that happen?

Having grown Rosa Mundi, Apothecary Rose, and the reversion of RM, there is no difference at all between Apothecary and the reversion in my garden. Of course, my "Apothecary" could well have been sourced from a reversion itself! So unless someone can find a *true* AR to test (good luck with that), the question remains open. And no, there's no way Cramoisi Superieur is more closely related to two damask roses than to the other chinas on the list. Just....no.

I don't think this study definitively states anything unless they can prove they tested the correct roses. But even if they did, I have serious questions about their methodology and interpretation.

At first I thought maybe a couple of labels had gotten switched, but there is no lone Damask among the Chinas, So the Cramoisi sample was contaminated, or they tested the wrong plant. It's possible the study addresses that, but I wasn't able to see the entire thing, just a few pages.

Thank you all for your comments! I was just gobsmacked when I read the note in Anne Belovich’s book. I, too, have grown both the roses in commerce as RM and Apothecary. And I have watched countless RMs revert to Apothecary. Since AB’s book was published recently and included research unavailable to S Verrier and other Gallica experts, I couldn’t turn to them for notes and remarks. I am really, really grateful for this forum—its experts and educated avocational rose gardeners and researchers. No one else would get my flabbergasted ”What the heck?” moment! Of all the things I do and don’t know about Gallicas, I thought I at least knew that RM is a sport of Apothecary. I staked my rep on it in my design days.

I wonder how this research came to be flawed and yet came to be published. It’s very interesting to read more about the genetic testing. Surely some of the researchers themselves must have had doubts along the way? I get that the difficulty of verifying that roses we grow today are identical to those from the past will leave questions and uncertainty hanging in the air, especially when we are talking about the very distant past from which Apothecary emerges, but as soon as I read the results of the ”DNA analyisis” in AB’s book, red flags unfurled.

Carol

Maybe they sourced their gallica officinalis from Heirloom! (and got a plant of "Ville de Bruxelles" while they were at it.)

WhWhat is kind of disturbing is that no one looked at the results and asked if they made sense before publishing them. and then again someone else took them and republished them. and now helpmefind has it on their website about rosa mundi

Paul, you may owe me a new keyboard. We'll have to see if the tea I just spit all over it destroys it, lol.

Ha, ha! That’s as good of a theory as any. 😂 Carol

On the serious side, I do worry about these seemingly incorrect genetic ID “facts” floating around in what should be reliable sources of info on old roses. Carol

@User Congrats on your book purchase! I meant to mention that the AB book has lovely photos and nice descriptions of oodles of Gallicas. She frequently refers to Francois Joyeux’s classifications. I hope you enjoy your new rose book! I also have AB’s Moss Roses book. Did you snag that one, too, or just the one on Gallicas? If you don’t already have it, I highly, highly recommend S Verrier’s book Rosa Gallica! It is one of my very favorite garden books: compact, a good read, informative and great quality photos of gorgeous old roses. Carol

Fascinating thread, thank you @portlandmysteryrose !

One would think that DNA testing would be the key to solving a lot of rose mysteries, but of course that only works if they test the right plant.

@User that is really intriguing about the possible replacement by Vibert. The OGR origin stories are so interesting!

@portlandmysteryrose

Thanks! I'm looking forward to reading it. I DO have Suzanne Verrier's book, and love it. I can't / won't grow most of these, but it's still fun and informative reading about them. And I can always move to a cooler climate some day...

@malcolm_manners

@User

@User

Would any of you have any idea how to get ahold of the original study in online form or otherwise? I’d like to read the publication. I am trying to track it down in the cracks between all my daughter’s school and med professional sessions but not having much luck. Thanks for any help you can offer. I know how to access scientific articles in other fields and in various journals but not published research on rose genes. Is there a single place (or even a few places) where the latest rose science congregate(s)? I plan to locate, cloud store and print anything I can gather on OGR genetic testing, especially Gallica DNA.

How many of us in the rose world had high hopes for the mystery solving power of genetic testing… and are now feeling a bit dashed? (My hand goes up.) Good thing someone’s life doesn’t hang in the balance on these “scientific” genetic test results! OMG!

Carol

@portlandmysteryrose

I tried another site and was able to download the entire article.

Click here:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Piola-Florence/publication/225496649_The_domestication_process_of_the_Modern_Rose_genetic_structure_and_allelic_composition_of_the_rose_complex/links/56dea25d08aed4e2a99db09f/The-domestication-process-of-the-Modern-Rose-genetic-structure-and-allelic-composition-of-the-rose-complex.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Wow! Thank you SO much @User!! I will read the article this weekend. I really, really appreciate all your comments, info and links! Carol