It really boggles my mind how , if you use these additives and remedies quite often you have to use more than one to offset some unintended negative from the first one. To me , things usually grow well enough you don't have to do all that. Some times there is a problem and more of some trace element may well solve the problem. But most plants don't seem, in my garden, to have a special problem, or to need any elaborate solution.

For small, baby plants potted up IMO Miracle Grow Moisture Control potting soil works fine. The plant is not going to stay in there permanently. I sometimes add a really small amount of time release food to the potting soil, mixing it in well so it's not concentrated in one spot. After awhile I might give very diluted Miracle Grow water soluble food. But I 've heard some nurseries say not to use any dry fertilizer on baby plants under one year old. You can kill a little plant with too much food , or too much water. Keep moist not soggy. Water is the number one fertilizer but too much of that is bad as well.

Keep the pot from baking in the sun. I do that sometimes by sticking the pot into a cheap basket bought at Goodwill. They will deteriorate outdoors eventually but will keep the pot cooler for when you need it. I think tiny plants do better potted up for awhile. I'd keep them in morning sun to abotu 2 pm approx. and out of late afternoon sun. When they first arrive you might try to give them gentle sun.

That said, you really seem to have the knack, Straw, of getting those babies to grow in a hurry.

Sooooo follow up to @strawchicago z5 comment about lava rocks with a question about larger lava rocks. I recently acquired some larger lava rocks for landscaping, most about 18-24 inches across, and have set them in rows between my roses on the north side of the house. It gets a couple of hours of early morning sun and then is shaded by the house until mid-late afternoon when it gets a few more hours of direct sun. My theory with the lava rocks is that if they can absorb heat because of their size and darker color, they should help the roses handle the shadier conditions. But my question is, will the rocks leach too many minerals into the soil for the roses to handle?

Thanks!!!

Joey: In your drier climate , lava rocks won't leach out much. In my high rain climate of 40" of rain per summer zone 5a, lava rocks do leach out nutrients if I place them next to the rainspout where flooding occurs with standing water during day-long rain.

I placed red lava rock on top of a dry raised bed, and that DID NOT affect the lower soil after 8 months. For my tomatoes, I place red lava rocks UNDER decaying grass clippings, or bury in a circular ring at bottom of planting hole. The grass releases acid to dissolve the red lava rock in week-long rain.

Even in poor drainage clay where it's wet 24/7, it took 2 years before large chunks of red lava rocks dissolved into red gritty clay. This red gritty clay was extremely fertile and perennial flowers became invasive.

erasmus_gw Agree with you that band-size can't handle solid fertilizer. Heirloom Roses stated: DO NOT USE POTTING SOIL with granular chemical fertilizer mixed in. Tiny roots will burn if in contact with those blue pellets of chemical fertilizer. I failed to root cuttings if I use MG-potting soil (with blue pellets of fertilizer), but folks root cutting easily with ORGANIC fertilizer with worm casting mixed with perlite for aeration.

Karen in Texas who rooted many roses noted the same: a few of her rootings died when she transferred them from coarse sand into MG-potting soil with blue pellets of fertilizer.

In 8th grade my daughter did a science experiment to grow mung-bean seeds in various medium, and the winner was MG-nature's Care potting soil (green bag) with organic fertilizer. That's out of 6 pots of different soils & fertilizers, ranging from 1) MG-moisture control potting soil with blue granules 2) potting soil for seedling (with 100% peatmoss and zero fertilizer), 3) potting soil mixed with Plant Tone 4) coarse sand 5) blend of pine fines with clay 6) clay fixed with gypsum. The result was based on the height of mung bean plants and how many plants thrive in freezing October weather.

• Above Nature's Care ORGANIC potting soil has Root-Trients™ - Alfalfa Meal, Bone Meal, Earthworm Castings, and Kelp Meal for strong roots. Plus yucca and coir, for moisture control.

i usually use bone meal dusted on the roots in the planting hole in addition to dr earth for flowers- these break down slowly and naturally but its not super easy to cultivate a biome in pot culture- natural fertilizers must be broken down by the living organisms in the soil itself.

That is why I also foliar and drench feed with Neptune’s Harvest. Here is the nutrient breakdown. my plants LOVE this stuff!

https://www.neptunesharvest.com/nutrients.html

I have a serious tomato probkem lol (lets face it- i have a serious plant problem lol 🤪)

my 4x20 tomato bed is mostly a fine bark mix soil and amended with my compost, cow manure, leaf mold/leaves (oak) worm castings , greensand, and alfalfa meal- and 4 -5 gallon buckets of used coffee grounds (we save them and dump them periodically over winter into the bed).

in the planting hole i use Dr Earth tomato and veg, bone meal, and blood meal and if i can find it i also use Dr Earth root zone. They are foliar fed with Neptune’s harvest.

i love tomatoes!

My roses, as most everythung in my garden, even in pot culture, is all grown and treated very similar -in similar soil mixtures for the most part- for pots i use by thirds find bark soil mix (i like pro mix organic or baccto), perlite, and peat or coco coir, whatever i have. i always add leaf mold and worm castings and try to mulch pots with oak mulch- we have our own wood chipper.

Consistent to what Straw mentioned, when I stared rooting roses, it was disheartening when I moved the newly rooted cuttings into Miraclegro and they died. I changed to Promix HP with much better results. Since then, I discovered that if I let the cuttings get bigger, with longer roots, they can transfer to MiracleGro (with the fertilizer) without problems.

Monique: Your garden & tomatoes look great !! My worst crop of tomato was when I DID NOT put Tomato-Tone nor humus & cow manure in the planting hole, and we got tons of rain that year. Other years with Tomato-Tone or composted cow manure in the planting hole, I had tons of tomato which husband had to bring to work to give away.

Same with roses. One year I moved own-root W.S. 2000 and put too much Tomato-Tone in the planting hole. But its roots matured into chunky & woody and LOVE the rich & wet soil: it became a CONTINUOUS bloomer. The next few years nutrients were depleted, and it finally paused in between flushes.

Noseometer: Thank you for your generosity in sharing tips on rooting roses and sharing your roses . A friend shared below method for rooting roses, using ORGANIC potting soil. She rooted the most difficult varieties which I failed:

Here's the video link to watch and the materials to buy to root roses. For potting soil, the Kellogg's Organic potting soil is similar in ingredients to the Nature's Care potting soil at neutral pH, without the harsh chemical granules that kill roots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ln0BaYaTXY

Materials needed: 2 gallon clear Cookie Jar sold at Target or Walmart

Fabric Nursery bag 5.5 x 6.3 inches sold on Amazon

Rooting hormone powder only $5 from Amazon

Kellogg's Organic potting soil mixed with perlite.

Heirloom Roses also stated NO GRANULAR fertilizer for 1st year own-root, but SOLUBLE fertilizer instead. Below info. is from Heirloom Roses' website:

"If your rose has too much nitrogen, you will have a lush plant with few or no blooms. If it has too little nitrogen, the plant will have yellow leaves, no new growth, and small pale roses.

Too little phosphorus results in dull foliage, dropped leaves, weak flower stems, and buds that will not open.

Lack of potassium produces weak stems, poorly developed buds, and yellow-edged leaves that turn brown."

For my winter of -22 F below zero, plus -30 F wind-chill factor, I need to grow own-root roses big enough to be buried at at least 5 inch. below ground. Any band size needs to be grown fast to reach a decent height to be placed deep below ground.

WORST RECORD was to follow Heirloom Roses of NO GRANULAR fertilizer on top. It doesn't work for my high-rain climate that leach out nutrients. SOLUBLE fertilizer can't provide enough nutrients when day-long rain leaches everything out fast. I found 2 TBS of whitish minerals oozing out of the bottom of each pot after days-long rain.

Calcium helps with both heat and extreme-cold tolerance. Calcium thickens the stem so rose' crown won't split during freezing rain, or drastic drop in temp. in my zone 5a winter.

Potassium helps with winter survival with THICKER stems and water osmosis.

Hydroponic studies showed that the biggest and thickest root-growth in lettuce was done with HIGH CALCIUM and HIGH POTASSIUM.

The year that I lost the most own-root roses dying through a -30 below zero wind-chill winter was when I bought 10 GALLON size own-roots from Roses Unlimited end of June. All the good potting soils were gone, what's left was Schultz potting soil with mostly bark chips, plus chemical granules.

I followed Heirloom's tip of ORGANIC SOLUBLE fertilizer NPK 4-3-2, and NO GRANULAR FERTILIZER, and no calcium, but I topped pots with alfalfa pellets. Roses could not even bloom. Five gallon-size own-roots died through that winter since their roots don't get enough nutrients to become woody & chunky and thick for zone 5a winter survival.

Here are some of my rooted cuttings that were transferred when very newly rooted into Miracle Grow Moisture Control potting soil with the little tiny bit of granular fertilizer in it:

Eramus: what type of granular fertilizer that you mixed well into MG-moisture-control potting soil for your rooted cuttings? Thank you.

Husband informed that due to Ukraine being invaded, prices of chemical fertilizers jump up so the prices of wheat and corn will go up.

Organics are still cheap on Amazon with Rose Tone sold for $18 for 18 lb. Also Jobes' organic fertilizer for tomatoes NPK 2-5-3 is sold for $7 for 4 lb. as of today April 2, 2022.

In the past I mixed Jobes' organic fertilizer into pots and own-root roses grew big fast with sturdy stem & roots thanks to a good % of calcium and sulfur (for growth) in that fertilizer. Christopher in the east coast also did the same and he posted pics. of fast growing & tall bands grown in pots.

Fastest growth of own-roots was back in 2012 with 12 TINY BANDS from Burlington roses, plus 4 gallon own-roots from Roses Unlimited (all survived my zone 5a winter). I used MG-ORGANIC potting soil (has organic fertilizers plus chunks of pine-bark mixed in for fast drainage).

I followed Roses' Unlimited tips of mixing in 1 cup of alfalfa meal per 3 gallons of potting soil, but I did not use lime to neutralize alfalfa's acidity since I watered exclusively with pH 9 tap water back then.

I used SOLUBLE NPK 20-20-20 with trace elements at 1/2 dose weekly, plus I topped pots with horse manure for trace elements & calcium, and the first bloom of Firefighter (in a 2.5 gallon pot) was 5 inch. across, see below pic:

Straw - thank goodness you figured out what works best for you...and then you share your knowledge with us. :) :)

Erasmus - wow!!! That's incredible! Good job!!

I got my first bareroot today...Vineyard Song. It's an ownroot rose (still pretty small). I planted it in my new potting soil. I was really impressed with it...lots and lots of pumice! I'm glad I canceled my order from Amazon for pumice. :) :)

Oh my, Erasmus! what are you going to do with that many roses?

Noseoneter, I've been selling roses for maybe 20 years. It's a one person, very small nursery and I like it small so I have at least a little time for my own garden, my family, and house. When someone says , " You can't do that" and it's something that has worked for me for 20 years I have to say, " Huh?"

Erasmus, wow! What mix did you start them in first to get roots?

@erasmus_gw - cool! I should do that. I can't stop growing cuttings and I don't know what to do with all the plants. Maybe when I retire...lol!

Carol: you are the reason for my posting. Your honesty about the mistakes in your garden is the same philosophy that I follow: I post for truth, and not to impress anyone.

Stephanie: Erasmus root cuttings in coarse sand, she shared that info. on forum before.

Noseometer: You bless many (including me) with your cuttings. People appreciate your cuttings forever.

Monique anne Thank you for sharing about the best soil mix in your garden, and thanks for posting the link to Neptune fish formula, re-post your link:

https://www.neptunesharvest.com/nutrients.html

In the above link Neptune fish fertilizer has NPK 2.2-4.3-0.3, with 0.75 calcium, 0.17 sulfur, and 0.16 sodium. It has 26 ppm iron, 3 ppm manganese, 9 ppm zinc, 2.5 ppm boron, and 8 ppm aluminum, plus other trace elements, plus all amino acids.

Note the super high iron, manganese, and boron .. these trace elements are vital for blooming, thus Bailey got 120 buds on his Austin Young Lycidas for spring flush with fresh salmon bits and shrimp shells.

Note the high zinc at 9 ppm. Zinc is a strong anti-fungal trace elements, thus roses fertilized with fish emulsion are healthier with perfect leaves.

Note the high aluminum at 8 ppm. This explains why Lily (Seaweed) who used to post in Organic rose forum had the MOST INTENSE blue color in her roses. Aluminum plus acidic pH shift color to the blue zone.

Erasmus: Agree with what you wrote: "Keep the pot from baking in the sun. I think tiny plants do better potted up for awhile. I'd keep them in morning sun to about 2 pm approx. and out of late afternoon sun. When they first arrive you might try to give them gentle sun."

Back in 2012 when I ordered 12 bands from Burlington roses in CA, I put them in full-sun. Husband mowed the lawn and saw them wilting at 85 F, he told me to put them in partial shade, so I moved my pots to 4 hours of morning sun (7 am to 11 am), and they grew big to survived my zone 5a winter when planted in the ground.

Later on that summer, it went up to 100 F and one plastic wheel of our gas grill MELTED in full sun. I burnt my hand when I touched a garden scoop left in full sun. I also burnt my finger when I touched the metallic piece on our patio's sliding door. I had to wear a hat the entire summer to protect my head from getting hurt under full hot sun.

Even for big roses grafted on Dr.Huey, they looked awful (scorched leaves) at HomeDepot in full-sun at 90 F, and zero blooms in dried out pots, but the roses at Meijers garden UNDER A SHADE CLOTH had lush & healthy leaves with tons of blooms.

Wow - that's HOT when plastic is melting!!

I didn't know there was a difference between fish fertilizers. So Neptune's is better than Alaskan fish oil?

Neptune Harvest explains why their fish fertilizer is fresher (with Omega-3) than fish emulsion in below link:

https://www.neptunesharvest.com/emulsions.html

For myself: when I make dinner with canned Mackerel, I get fantastic sleep so the Omega-3 in fish is NOT destroyed by heating. My neighbor showed me a pepper plant that she grew in a tiny pot fertilized with Alaska fish fertilizer, and it's loaded with blooms, plus she never change the soil. Conclusion: cheap fish fertilizer works just as well.

Thanks. :) :)

Also, I just got my Vineyard Song own root rose (small, but has leaves) on Friday and with the weather, it won't be able to go outside after today for a week...and then one week of great weather...and then we're gone for a week (to see Holly).

Should I bring it in the house today and just leave it inside until May when we're back from our trip? I can't imagine that 2 weeks in the garage would be good for it.

Noseometer, yes, it's fun to root them. Stephanie, I use both fine sand and coarser sand to root them. I am going to try cactus potting mix on some that are hard to root...Straw says there may be more minerals in it or it will be better aerated. I think it's a theory that some cuttings might need more minerals.

My husband set up a misting system for me last year and it helped with some I had found hard to root. Most did better with the mist. Malcolm Manners in FL has a misting system in full sun. Mine's in part sun.

It never has worked for me to enclose a cutting in a plastic bag or cover with a bottle or place in an aquarium. But those same methods have worked for some other people, or many people. Without controlled experiments it is stretching it a bit to say what has worked for you proves you have found the absolute best method. That's because there are many variables that could have something to do with something working or not.

Another couple of things to make life in a pot easier for a small plant: you can put them in a lighter colored pot that will reflect sun more than totally absorb it like a black plastic pot does. Also you can put a little mulch on the top of the potting soil to insulate and conserve moisture, although you don't want to pile up mulch on the stem/s.

If you plant in the ground in hot sun you can ease the transition by giving partial shade to the plant for a few days or weeks. You can stick branches of something like an evergreen in the soil around the plant to create dappled shade. Or you can put a lawn chair over the plant to shade it a bit. Remove once the plant seems settled.

I rooted a Rosa Hugonis...which I think is a hard one to root. That's what someone told me...so I rooted one for her (and one for me). I scraped the dermis(?) off the cane for about 2 inches. That really helped.

Carol: Own-root Vineyard song is wimpy for folks in dry & alkaline region. Robert Neil Rippetoe wrote: "The leaves are definitely light green in alkaline conditions. I think it's multiflora influence."

Pale leaves own-roots thrive better with acidic rain water, than with alkaline tap water.

If your house's heater is turned down to 60 F while on vacation, without the heater kicking on to dry out the soil, then it's OK indoor.

The last time I kept tiny rootings down the basement (by the window), they got dry out from the gas-heater kicking on. I got tired of watering them daily, so I gave up, and the stems got dried out, and they died.

I have better luck keep tiny rootings DORMANT in my dark & unheated garage (these need water only once a month) until the last week of May (free from frost).

It's going to be 29 F tonight, then 60 F in a few days. Vineyard song is hardy to zone 5b, and if there's no chipmunks to eat it to the crown while you are on vacation, then it's OK outside to get the rain-water. I kept tiny own-root Clotilde Soupert and Perle'd Or in pots, outside while it's snowing in upper 20's and they still keep their leaves.

Re-post info. from VERY EXPERIENCED rose growers: Kublakan is in South Florida, and MAD post many amazing pics. of her roses, same with Helen (bayarea_girl)

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5152261/growing-roses-in-containers

kublakan
My "recipe" for potting soil is simple: two bags top soil, one bag compost/manure, and a good helping of perlite. I stopped adding granular fertilizers to the mix two years ago when I noticed that when I didn't include it the roses did better. Adrian.

MAD zone 9b
I believe root rot means the soil is too wet or not enough air is getting to the roots. I had the same problem with plain miracle grow in large pots. That’s why now I mix in around 1 part perlite to 1.5-2 parts potting soil. I add a good helping of vermiculite to help retain nutrients since I like to add so much perlite.

Oh, I should mention that all my large pots are elevated on a planter caddy / roller thing, so I can easily move them around. It might also help against heat coming off a concrete floor since they will not be in direct contact. Elevating the pot also helps keep the drainage hole(s) from getting blocked with accumulated dirt.

I get 90-110F degree dry summers here. I’ve noticed that when potted plants don’t have enough aeration (either due to compaction or too much moisture) in the middle, the roots will all grow only on the sides of the pot and none in the middle or they rot in the middle.When the pots get heated in the summer, all those roots on the sides can get cooked...and now the plant can’t take up water properly no matter how much you water because it has no roots, or the roots keep drying out too fast on the sides but the crown stays too wet when we compensate. My potted roses do really well in the summer with twice a week watering (big 22-24” pots, smaller pots need more watering) since I started focusing on soil aeration. Also, use light colored pots to reflect heat away during the summer. MAD zone 9b

Tangles Long

A temp of 25 C or 77 F degrees isn't hot for us humans but for plastic pots, they heat up. When temp hits 27 C or 80 F, I will need to use outdoor umbrella to shade those pots. Any shading cloth will work fine.

bayarea_girl_z10a_ca

If you live in a hot weather area, don’t have a lot of rain, no drip system, and have to water your potted roses every day in summer, there is a helper called Plant Nanny 6053. Here is the link that I posted about it before. Helen

https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/4817266/plant-nanny-6053-for-your-potted-roses

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5152261/growing-roses-in-containers

What MAD in zone 9b wrote about giving aeration to pots via perlite and vermiculite to help plants cope with heat is true. Khalid in zone 9b, Pakistan uses Terracota pots since it's breathable and cooler than plastic pots. I would not want to wear polyester pants at 90 F in full sun, and roots can't breathe inside stuffy & hot plastic pots either, unless there's more aeration inside pots via perlite.

ORGANICS work well in pots, as proven by amazing pics. of Austin roses in 50 pots, posted by Yen Vo in College Station, TX, see below link. She uses Kellogg Potting Mix on all of her roses. She feeds with fish fertilizer weekly, longest is bi-weekly. She also feeds Rose tone monthly and either/ or mill magic every 2 months. She stated that her roses love rose tone more than the others.

Kellogg potting mix for outdoor containers has: Recycled forest products, coir, perlite, composted poultry manure, hydrolyzed feather meal, peat moss, kelp meal, worm castings and bat guano.

https://www.rosesinhouston.com/post/growing-roses-in-pots

I googled "growing roses in pots", and all the sites with fabulous pics. USE ORGANIC FERTILIZER rather than chemicals. Here's another link with pics. of roses in pots:

https://hartley-botanic.com/magazine/grow-fabulous-roses-containers-anne-reeves-shares-secrets/

"Anne’s containers are never less than sixteen inches across and deep. She always drills extra drainage holes in the bottom to avoid soggy roots.

Anne feeds monthly with an organic granular fertilizer, and ups the game with a fish and seaweed fertilizer added to the watering regimen every three weeks. (All her pots are watered on driplines.) She mulches pots with wood chips to hold moisture."

From David Austin website on growing roses in pots: "begin to fill your pot with a mix of well-rotted farmyard manure and multi-purpose compost."

https://www.davidaustinroses.com/blogs/news/how-to-plant-a-rose-in-a-pot/

Those who advocated of using chemicals only in pots, and zero organics GROW roses grafted on thick & chunky & woody Dr.Huey rootstock, or laxa rootstock (long root neck), or rosa canina (dense & tough roots) .. these can take both salt and harsh chemicals.

Tiny hairy-cluster own-roots CANNOT take harsh chemical granules like Osmocote (killed a few of my tiny rootings). Also multiflora-rootstock is a cluster root and is LESS salt-tolerant than big fat & chunky and woody Dr.Huey rootstock.

RVRs suggests 10 pellets of Osmocote Plus on a gal pot for tiny band own root roses. This has always worked well here. I tend to be very cautious and that has served me well here.

Straw - I didn't want to put my own root Vineyard's Song in the basement (cooler) because it could transfer bugs to my streptocarpus plants. So I have it upstairs in an area that has diffuse light coming from a window. It's going to go outside on the weekend, then back inside again when we go on our trip. It's looking good right now. Good to know that it needs rain water. My husband's first job in the backyard is to build a rain collection system (with a pump) from the roof.

So, a long time ago, you suggested that I use a water soluble fertilizer on my roses (along with organic materials). Do you think that newer evidence by other growers suggests I shouldn't use Miracle Gro fertilizer...and just stick with organics?

For cold-zone where roses are winter-killed to the crown, I need FAST RELEASE chemical nitrogen to grow the canes back fast. Blood meal NPK 12-0-0 is too slow and doesn't work in cold temp.

Alaska Fish fertilizer has NPK 5-1-1 provides instant growth, but it's too expensive for me to use for roses in the ground. A nitrogen of 5 needs to be given more often than MG-soluble for plants NPK 24-8-16 (has ammonium sulfate for fast green-up in spring).

It's possible to use fish fertilizer as the only source of nitrogen for pots if there's a thick wad of DENSE organic matter on top (like worm castings with humus) to retain the nitrogen.

My last soil test didn't test for nitrogen in my soil, it tested for the amount of organic matter. The higher the amount of organic matter means there are more soil bacteria to convert nitrogen (in the atmosphere) into usable form for plants to use.

I never fertilize my trees yet they grow tall 30+ feet, thanks to my dense clay with plenty of soil bacteria to convert nitrogen from the atmosphere into usable form for roots to use. Trees here lose leaves yearly.

The best source of nitrogen is humus, like black peat in bagged soil here. One time I topped a patch of my lawn with bagged top soil, and the grass grew 3 times taller and darker green compared to existing lawn. It stayed tall & dark green for more than a year, before the grass became pale & short like the rest of my lawn.

From the web: "Nitrogen makes up 78 percent of the air. It is highly unreactive in the atmosphere. Nitrogen is necessary for all living things and must be converted into other compounds by micro-organisms in soil. Nitrogen-fixing organisms include certain types of bacteria plus other micro-organisms that live on the roots of legumes such as soybeans, alfalfa and red clover. The micro-organisms convert N2 into other compounds such as ammonium and nitrate, which are taken up by plant roots."

Below is a pic. of my garden back when we had new top soil .. didn't have to fertilize my lawn for the first few years:

Difference between peat moss (brown) in potting soil mix, versus black peat (very black) in bagged Garden Soil and bagged top soil in the mid-west. Black peat is well-compost organic matter that turns black, versus peat moss HAS ZERO NUTRIENTS, but can hold water 10 times its weight. Black peat is high in nitrogen, see excerpt from below study: "We estimate that ~18 Pg of N has been stored in northern peatlands since deglaciation, reflecting high N accumulation rates (~0.8 g m−2 yr−1), whereas P accumulation is small."

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/2014GB005000

Since Urea needs to be broken down by microbes in soil before roots can absorb, it's best to avoid Urea in pots as a source of nitrogen. Nitrogen and calcium is best given AFTER PRUNING in spring, to grow new canes. Next is phosphorus for more branching of roots & stems (thus more flowers). Next is potassium for disease prevention plus larger blooms.

"Soluble nitrogen (especially nitrate) is the form that’s the most quickly available to the roots, while insoluble N (like urea) first needs to be broken down by microbes in the soil before the roots can absorb it. Avoid excessive ammonium nitrogen, which can interfere with other nutrients. Too much N delays flowering. Plants should be allowed to become N-deficient late in flowering for best flavor."

https://www.kindgreenbuds.com/marijuana-grow-guide/plant-abuse-chart-and-photos/

Agree with the above: A Michigan State University horticultural professor once said, "It's the ABSENCE OF NITROGEN that induces blooming, rather than adding more phosphorus."

Below pic. shows a progress of nutrient-profile ranging from LEAST NUTRIENT on top, and progressing down to MORE NUTRIENTS black peat, sedge peat, clay, and mineral soil.

Since phosphorus mobility is a 1 (it hardly leaches out of soil), there's the danger of phosphorus accumulation and phosphorus burn in roses (looks like sun-burn on leaves).

Chicken manure NPK is 2-4-3, but the actual phosphorus tested is often 10 times higher due to phosphorus accumulation in stockpiled yard. So the actual value is 2-40-3, extremely high in phosphorus.

Back in 2011 there was a lady who fertilized her roses monthly with chicken manure .. and she killed them despite their being big roses grafted on Dr.Huey. There's another person who did the same in another forum.

I did the same by putting a wad of chicken manure around the crown of roses. It still burns despite tons of rain due to the 10% of salt in chicken manure. The low-thorn roses like Firefighter, Lagerfeld, and Twilight Zone suffered the most. These are the signs of too much phosphorus being accumulated:

1) Plants become stunt, won't grow tall. I grow own-roots in pots FOR HEIGHT so I can plant them 5 inch. below the ground for zone 5a winter survival. The mistake I did with my 2nd Firefighter and 2nd Wise Portia was: I planted them in my clay with 1/3 potting soil and 1/3 composted cow manure. Phosphorus in cow manure is fast-release so I got 6 inch. tall rose with constant blooming, but lousy winter survival. It's a nuisance to pinch off buds, and they REFUSED to grow tall since too much phosphorus suppress nitrogen and other nutrients.

2) Sun burn on leaves. Too much fast release phosphorus (chicken or cow manure) suppress both calcium and potassium. Calcium is for thick leaves and heat-tolerance, and potassium is for water osmosis. Phosphorus burn: leaves become thinner & wither, and burn or become brown at edges in hot sun.

3) Burning of roots since plants can't take up water with too much phosphorus. I once tested bone meal (15% to 27% phosphorus) by throwing them on top of a dozen geraniums. Their colors become deeper & prettier, but their leaves got scorched & brown and withered due to root injury.

My 1st Firefighter planted in potting soil mixed with alfalfa meal (has growth hormone) reached a height of 3 feet & survived several winters. It was fertilized by balanced SOLUBLE fertilizer, plus topped with horse manure for calcium & trace elements.

Compared to my 2nd Firefighter being 6 inch. tall, then died through my zone 5a winter, thanks to too much fast release phosphorus from composted cow manure that stunt its growth.

Below link has a good tip of flushing the pot once a week to get rid of phosphorus and magnesium build-up in pots. Magnesium hardens the soil, and too much phosphorus accumulated burns roots. My rock-hard & cement clay was tested exceedingly high in magnesium.

https://www.gardenmyths.com/container-gardening-selecting-soil/

"It is a good idea to flush the soil with a lot of water about once a week. To do this, allow the water (with no added fertilizer) to flow completely through the pot and out the bottom. A heavy rain storm may do this for you."

That was a really good article. Thanks, Straw. :) :)

There was a thread from someone who thought she/he may have sunburned canes. Maybe it was too much phosphorous?? Interesting.

That thread about the sunburned cane was from me. I don’t think it could be fertilizer burn because all of my own root roses only get fish fertilizer which is probably why they got the potassium deficiency that straw identified since fish fertilizer has very little potassium in it. But I’ll have to review the article so I can identify in the future a phosphorus burn. I do flush the pots once every two weeks with no fertilizer whatsoever just so there’s no salt buildup.

I grew 3 Firefighters are own-root, and a 4th is coming from Roses Unlimited next month. Firefighter is a fast grower and constant-bloomer, so it has a higher demand for calcium to prevent cane-borers that infest thinner canes. It has firm petals that last 5+ days in the vase, thus ALKALINE MINERALS helps.

Ann K. posts many pics. of her Austin roses in Facebook that got 900+ likes per pic. She lives in Northern CA and grows an 8 feet tall Jude the Obscure AS OWN-ROOT, which is amazing consider Jude's reputation for being wimpy as own-root. Ann K. shared with me this recipe for fertilizing roses. She wrote the below:

"Here's a recipe from a Napa Valley nursery that's very similar to what I'm doing. I use the Down to Earth products for the first two but use E.B. Stone Organic Rose and Flower Food (5-6-3) instead of Dr. Earth.

Our Special Rose Fertilizer Recipe

Once you see 3-6" of new growth on your roses you should begin fertilizing. Here's our favorite rose fertilizer mix that will ensure gorgeous roses this summer!

Per rose...
2 tablespoons EB Stone's Sul Po Mag
1 cup EB Stone's Alfalfa Meal
1/4 cup Dr. Earth's Life 4-6-5

If you have multiple roses we suggest you make one big batch and divvy it up amongst your roses (about 1.5 heaping cups per rose)." Ann K.

So much good info here! Thank you all! I have a tiny start left of 5 tried in a cup with plastic bag. When wind knocked it over a month ago I had the opportunity to see that it had a callous on the cut end but no roots yet. I am hoping it has roots now. I started it about 3 months ago and it sprouted a new leaflet 2 weeks ago.

Hi @strawchicago z5, I got notified today that my High Country order would be pushed back again due to some of the bands not being ready to ship. So I have some time to prepare my potting soil.

Do you still recommend adding gypsum to the potting soil a month before planting? I usually use the Miracle Grow organics (in the black bag) which doesn't have many clumps but then I thought maybe the gypsum was to add calcium to the soil in advance of planting. Since my bands are now pushed back to mid-May, I figured I'd try adding calcium in the soil if that was the purpose.

I saw you recommend 1 cup of gypsum per 3 gallons of potting mix..sound right?

Ryan: For the last decade, the years that I did not mix in gypsum with potting soil, my own-roots were stunt in growth. Gypsum has 21% to 18% sulfur, and sulfur is necessary for growth. Sulfur is from decayed organic matter or from mined minerals, such as sulfate of potash, or calcium sulfate (gypsum). An excerpt from below link:

https://garden.org/learn/articles/view/6/

"Pure gypsum is 23 percent calcium and 19 percent sulfate . In the hierarchy of the 16 essential plant nutrients, calcium is seventh and sulfur is ninth.

Calcium also improves root uptake of other plant nutrients, especially ammonium nitrogen. Calcium does not move from old to new plant tissues, so a constant supply of soluble calcium is needed. Limestone does not migrate in the soil, and is effective only to the depth incorporated. In contrast, gypsum dissolves immediately in the moisture of the soil, allowing plant roots to absorb the calcium ions and the sulfate ions.

Gypsum supplies sulfur as sulfate, the form plant roots can absorb.

Symptoms of sulfur deficiency include: Light green to yellowish young leaves. Small and spindly plants. Retarded growth rate

To revitalize sodic (salty) soils, incorporate gypsum into the soil and then apply six or more inches of water. The calcium ions will replace sodium ions that are attached to the soil particles. The sodium (as sodium sulfate, NaSO4) washes away through the soil into the groundwater."

Last year of 20+ new own-roots in pots, I only mixed in gypsum for 3 pots since I was concerned about the acidity of using rain-water from my 7 rain-barrels. These 3 pots were the fastest in growth with the biggest root balls.

The pots where I mixed alfalfa meal plus lime, but NO gypsum, own-roots were stunt in growth, esp. with PALE leaves roses like Teasing Georgia and Leander. I should had mixed in gypsum instead of lime for the wimpy & pale own-roots.

It helps to mix gypsum into potting soil one month in advance, so either rain or a few waterings will dilute the acidic 19 to 21% sulfur, so it won't cause root injury.

Mixing in 1 cup of ALFALFA MEAL per 3 gallon of potting soil helps with fast growth since alfalfa has growth-hormone, plus it releases sulfur as it decays.

Back in 2012 when I used alkaline tap water at pH 9, mixing in alfalfa meal (no added lime) helped Firefighter to reach 3 feet tall in a pot. I don't recommend alfalfa pellets since it's a larger pocket of acidity and killed 2 of my own-roots, but alfalfa meal blended well into soil will be neutralized by alkaline tap water.

Thanks very much Straw! I went ahead and added both alfalfa and gypsum to my potting soil now and watered it in well. I have more than 3 weeks before they arrive so if I harden them off for a week that should be enough time to neutralize some of the acidity with my very alkaline tap water.

For high rain climate (all day long) like mine, alfalfa meal NPK 2-1-2 is best added RIGHT BEFORE planting own-roots in pots. University of Connecticut documented the nitrogen release of grass clippings is within a month. Since alfalfa meal is much smaller particle than grass clippings, nutrients are released is IMMEDIATELY. I had seen roses gained 4 inch. of cane & leaves within a week fertilized with alfalfa meal.

Too much rain here leaches out nitrogen, so I wait until right before planting to add alfalfa meal to my pots. Re-post the recipe of spring fertilizing from a rose nursery in CA:

2 tablespoons EB Stone's Sul Po Mag
1 cup EB Stone's Alfalfa Meal
1/4 cup Dr. Earth's Life 4-6-5

My own-root roses in the ground, zone 5a are much smaller, so I use 1/2 of the above:

1 TBS sulfate of potash (I don't use Sul Po Mag since my clay was tested very high in magnesium), mixed with 1/2 cup alfalfa meal plus 1/4 cup of Rose Tone NPK 4-3-2 (won't reduce the amount since my roses are winterkilled to below my ankle).

Below is a pic. of Crimson Glory with one month of growth, bought as a tiny band from Burlington roses, with alfalfa meal mixed in potting soil, and alfalfa meal as fertilizer along with MG-SOLUBLE for roses NPK 18-24-16, plus topped with horse manure for calcium & trace elements. I had to use chemical soluble fertilizer due to cold temp. in May in zone 5a:

Here is the potential problem with alfafa meal you *have to know your source* all types of hay crops most are sprayed with broad leaf weed pesticides and could potentially damage your plant if you get infected hays, straws, even manures by the animals who eat it.

and that stuff is persistent!

Straw the tip about mixing gypsum in to the pot a month before planting is genius. This forum has helped me loads. I was wondering if anyone here has a soil tester kit they trust and enjoy?

A decade ago I spent hours searching for a reliable soil pH tester, and found that even a $200 pH meter needs recalibration before each use to be accurate. Too much hassle so I used red-cabbage juice to test 10+ samples of my soil. It's quite accurate and match the pH of my soil test (done by EarthCo. soil testing company). It takes only $1 of distilled water plus $2 of red cabbage, see below link:

Each spot in my garden varies greatly in nutrients based on if there was previous tree-roots, or what toppings I used. The soil test kit sold at Home Depot and Lowe's are totally worthless, giving false results. But soil test done through a County Extension or professional soil testing company is more accurate, using 1 cup of soil.

Once the pH of my soil is known, it's easy to find what nutrients are deficient, see below links:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2132487/cheapest-way-to-test-soil-ph-using-red-cabbage

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/4034324/how-to-tell-mineral-nutrient-deficiency-in-plants-and-soil#n=133

Thank you a bunch straw you just saved me money :) I was afraid that was the case with the testing kits. I’ll just have to find a professional near by so I can properly use all your amazing information.
I had some questions though. When you say to add gypsum to the potting soil a month in advance for the wimpy pale leaf own roots (like my hopefully Saint Cecilia will be) should I also just make the entire potting mix a month beforehand or just do the gypsum and soil? Also when you say that vermiculite is good in the middle of the pot for drainage, does that mean I should do the soil lasagna style and not mix it all up? I’m planning to do packing peanuts on the bottom for air as you said, manure, some of my soil at the top, worm castings and bat guano, perlite, vermiculite in the middle? , and then some dr earth rose soil mix! I found this stuff and I think it’s great! It’s got alfalfa meal and everything! Oh and also some mycorrhizal sprinkled at the roots. And now I’m thinking I should prepare this all a month ahead of time and add some gypsum to it so it can sit?

I found ph soil test strips on Amazon that actually match the soil test results from a professional test I had done. Search for, Garden Tutor Soil pH Test Kit (3.5-9 Range), 100 Soil pH Test Strips. They are specifically designed to work with soils. I work in a lab and so I have access to lab grade chemistry ph test strips, which were way off in my soil. Something in soil messes with ph test strip that aren’t specifically designed to combat this problem.

Thank you, Stephanie, for the tip of Garden Tutor Soil pH Test kit strips.

I find that soil pH test via a solution (red-cabbage juice) is more accurate since it takes at least 1/2 hour for the minerals in soil to dissolve in water.

I tested soaking coffee ground in red-cabbage juice, at first it was acidic (pinkish), but after 1/2 hour soak, the solution became clear, coffee ground is known as a buffer.

Same with rose park nearby, they scattered a layer of gypsum on top of their clay. I scoop up 1 heaping Tablespoon of their soil and tested in red cabbage juice. At first the solution turned pinkish (acidic), from the 18% of sulfur dissolved first. After 1 hour, the solution became very blue (alkaline), from the calcium of gypsum being slowest to dissolve, plus the alkaline minerals in soil was slow to dissolve.

SARENA: for the reason above, it's best to mix gypsum 1 month in advance into soil, and let rain or a few waterings release its acidic sulfur to dissolve minerals in soil (rather than to corrode roots).

Since you are in a high-rain climate, it's good to have solid minerals on top to buffer acidic rain, such as a thick layer of Worm Casting (pH 7.4), or your clay (if alkaline like mine at pH 7.7).

Vermiculite is to improve moisture and to hold nutrients, plus to make potting soil fluffy for wimpy own-roots. Perlite has zero nutrients but good to MIX-IN so roots can have more oxygen for growth. Own-root roses like moist but airy soil.

Both vermiculite and perlite is best mixed into potting soil. One rooting method recommended by University of CA at Davis is to mix 1/2 vermiculite (for moisture & cation exchange) plus 1/2 perlite (for aeration).

straw, when one makes alfalfa tea with alfalfa and molasses does it change the ph of soil like plain alfalfa added to the soil.... i have made some tea and it has been fermenting for several days. I have added lots of horse manure that had shavings and using it as a mulch more than as an additive, but it has been really dry so the ground under it has dried out even with watering. I am wanting the tea to build back soil enzymes.... which is what I thought the tea does. I used a lot of molasses and less alfalfa to feed the good stuff..... At least that is my hope.

Sharon: anything sweet makes the soil more acidic since sugar helps with fermenting bacteria. My Mom put a lot of sugar when she made wine from her pears. A nursery advised pouring a can of COKE into the soil to make soil more acidic. Putting molasses into alfalfa tea helps it to ferment faster. In making bread, I always put a bit of honey or sugar into the yeast mixture to make the yeast grow faster.

It takes about 2 days in hot sun for alfalfa tea to bring down the pH of my alkaline tap water, but with added molasses, the fermentation is faster, like one day.