I would say if immediate gratification is your goal then stick with the grafted. For one thing they are generally older. But as far as the old argument grafted versus own-root is really more location and cultivar dependent.

I have found that here in hot California, own-roots take several years longer to catch up. Sometimes it is the only way I can get a rose. Then I just need to be patient. Given a choice, I would pick grafted. I know, to some, that is like saying that I wouldn't choose organic food if I had the choice. Still, I have to go by my own experience.
Kathy

"as far as the old argument grafted versus own-root is really more location and cultivar dependent."

exactly

Yep. It depends on the particular rose, the soil, the interaction between the rose and the soil, the climate, the health of the rose, etc... Most of my own root roses catch up to the grafted ones by the end of their first year. Burgundy Iceberg does wonderfully for me own root and is huge this year which is only its second year. But my first choice when buying a rose is the grafted roses from Palatine because they're very large and grow well and do well here. I wouldn't replace a slow growing own root rose in its first year though as it should catch up in my experience.

What roses are you talking about? I have had great luck with own room Bucks. Not such great luck with own root DA's.

Here's my 2 cents' worth. I agree with the "location and cultivar dependent" statement. In addition, though, I think how you grow it has an effect. In general, I think it takes an extra year or 2 for an own-root plant to look like a grafted one can in 1 season; partly because the grafted plant is actually older when you buy it. Roses Unlimited, though, grows their own-root plants 2 years, I believe, before selling them, and they are bigger than other own-roots. After 3 or 4 years, again depending on cultivar, the own-root can look identical to the grafted.

But here's my personal observation. I have grown all my roses in pots the past 9 years due to living arrangements (I rent, and like to rearrange and swap out roses frequently; plus, there are a lot of invasive tree roots in my yard). I've grown own-root and grafted in the ground as well. I have noticed some own-roots that sulk in the ground actually look healthier and bushier in a pot with "soilless" potting soil. I'm just speculating that this may be because the young root system is protected from compaction and competition from other plants' roots when its in a pot.

I LIKE own-root roses, but not because I expect them to grow bigger. They usually won't. I like them precisely because they object less to the confining space of a pot than do most rootstock-grafted roses. So if you find yourself buying an own-root rose because you can't find that variety grafted, and if you are disappointed with how it does in the ground, try it in a roomy pot with a quality potting soil (not "garden soil"). It might make a happy difference.

Mike, I have a question. I grow both own root and roses grafted on fortuniana. Some roses will do fine here on their own roots. However, other roses will do well here only if they are on fortuniana, so if they are available that way, I buy them grafted.

I have an Aunt Belle's tea from Roses Unlimited, (great place by the way), so she is obviously on her own roots. She was a tiny little gal when I planted her late spring of this year, and she has not grown a great deal so far. She has healthy new red leaves, although she did go through a defoliation cycle-I don't spray, has bloomed a great deal, and has possibly doubled her size, but is still staying much, much smaller than some of my other own root roses. She is getting water, plenty of sun, etc.

If you were me, would you leave her alone for awhile, or would you consider putting her in a pot? I probably should have waited to plant her until fall, as we have had a brutal summer. I'm not sure if this is a sulk, or semi-sulk.

Sandy

I suppose it does depend on the location and the plant itself and in some places like FL you just can't grow most own-root because of things that live in the soil.

But except for one rose, I only have own-root roses. They take a couple extra years as a rule, although again, that really depends on the rose itself. One rose I really wanted to grow was Joyce Barden. It is now 5 years old and is about a foot tall. It's coming out this year. And then a rose like Pleasantrie or Climbing James Galway just wants to grow and in it's first year it takes off. Can't imagine that either could be any more vigorous on another rootstock.

But remember, when they're grafted, the rootstock is a few years old already. When they're own root, the rootstock is only as old as the rest of the plant so you're at least two years behind if you bought a band.

Actually it's not altogether true that we can't grow many own root plants, roses or otherwise. It really depends where in Florida, and can vary from yard to yard. I actually have great success with many own root roses here, but I grow mostly antique roses (teas and chinas), and prefer how they look as compared to a grafted plant. I am also an organic gardener and have built up a population of "positive" soil organisms, which I think is key in any area, but especially down here. The good guys feed on the bad guys.

That said, there are some varieties that are not adapted to this area that I feel have to be grown grafted to do well-Stanwell Perpetual and Autumn Damask, for example, as well as most hybrid teas. Hybrid teas aren't as a class all that well adapted to this climate anyway.

Every area has critters in their soil that can be a problem to one plant or another. That's why every region has their fair share of native plants that have adapted.

I think my Aunt Belles tea is just being pouty because she is trying to get established under harsh conditions right now. I looked at her today and she looks very healthy and is putting on new growth. I'm guessing she would be best left alone and not disturbed at all. I guess doubling in size in 3 or 4 months isn't too bad, even if she is only about a 14 inch mound.

As a note of interest, The Antique Rose Emporium feels that if someone has a severe enough nematode problem, or other bothersome soil organism, grafted plants will eventually die from them also. No rose is immune to them, not even fortuniana (although foretuniana IS resistant, as well as robust). What fortuniana does, at least for me, is give me an opportunity to grow a rose that in actuality prefers a cooler climate, or to help with drought tolerance because of the way the root system grows. So....it truly is a case by case scenario.

I think my little tea rose just breathed a sigh of relief that I'm not going to dig her up and confine her to a pot:)

Sandy

Mike said:

"I have noticed some own-roots that sulk in the ground actually look healthier and bushier in a pot with "soilless" potting soil."

Mike, do have a favorite soilless mix for potted roses?

Thanks.

I might be interested in grafted plants if the nurseries would find something to graft them onto instead of Dr. Mildew. Maybe I should try fortuniana, all the Banksias do well here. I understand that some of the Arvensis hybrids were once used for understalk. I wonder if that might be a good choice for western desert gardeners, or R. arvensis itself?

I cracked up reading your comment about Dr. Mildew!

Fortuniana seems to tolerate sandy soils and is somewhat drought tolerant once established. The way the root system grows, it is able to extract more nutrients from the soil. It can't take freezing temperatures for any length of time, although it tolerates our light frosts we get. Depending on where you live, and what your soil is like, it may do fine for you. I know that many people in South Carolina like fortuniana. Their soil varies between sandy and clay based. I'm not familiar with the other rootstocks. Maybe Jeri Jennings has some feedback about different rootstocks for California, and how well they do. She's on the antique roses forum quite frequently.

Sandy

Thank you all for all the elite information!!

Sandy, For some reason, roses on fortuniana are not sold in CA. I could order, but shipping costs are getting high, and I really like to support the excellent own root vendors we have on the west coast.

Sandy, central and southern Florida are a whole different scenario from the rest of the country as far as roses and roostock are concerned. I'm curious WHERE in Florida you are. If you haven't seen the book "For the Love of Roses in Florida and Elsewhere," you should check it out. You can find it on ebay if nowhere else. Author is Barbara Oehlbeck. There is an interesting section from Dr. Malcolm Manners, in central Florida, where he talks about having taken a personal survey of roses he could find growing in the area on their own roots. He swore the only own-root roses about to last decades on their own were almost exclusively china roses. Even old garden tea roses would decline after a while. But the root-rot nematode problem is one that doesn't usually make itself obvious immediately when one plants a rose. It can take 5 or 6 years before a given bush starts to decline, because the nematode population tends to take time to build up around a given plant. If you tend to grow roses for just a few years and then like to replace them with something new, then Dr. Huey grafted roses should work fine. But Fortuniana rootstock is DEFINITELY the way to go for most central and southern Floridian gardens if you want a long-lived plant.

Interesting you should mention the beneficial critters in the soil, because I have heard of them, too. You can actually order good guy nematodes to feed on the bad ones, but I'm not sure how completely that can take care of the problem. Root-rot nematodes are just so pervasive in Florida. Besides, Fortuniana rootstock has other benefits. Roses grafted onto it,even here in Louisiana, tend to grow as much as 50% larger than either own-root or Dr. Huey grafted. That's both the blooms and the bush. It's not that the nematodes don't attack the fortuniana roots; it's just that those fibrous roots grow so quickly the nematodes can't really eat them fast enough to do much damage, at least not for many years.

Here I go again praising potted roses, but that's honestly another option for central/southern Florida. If you get your baby roses from somewhere else, never let them touch native soil, plant them in pots with potting soil from outside of Florida, and keep the pots on a patio, deck, or concrete pavers, in otherwords, separate from the native soil, the nematodes should not be able to migrate into the pots. They are not very mobile and can't travel over concrete. They're also microscopic, so don't try looking for them (lol).

If I were you, I'd leave the Aunt Belle tea rose alone but find someone willing to graft a stem for you onto Fortuniana and then plant that one as well. Just watch. In ten years, you'll probably be convinced fortuniana is the only long-term choice. Of course, if you're in northern Florida, what I'm saying might be wrong, because the nematode problem does not extend into every area in the north. Some folks even here in coastal Louisiana report nematode problems, but I'm skeptical. I think they just see the obvious difference fortuniana makes in growth and attribute it to nematodes.

Almost forgot, fortuniana grafted roses tend also to be younger than Dr. Huey when sold, so they too will look smaller at first, but within two years they tend to pass Dr. Huey in growth.

Curlydoc, as for my favorate soilless mix, partly because of price, I use to recommend "Expert" brand from Walmart as being equal to many more expensive soils and a great value. I noticed the past year a visible difference in the mix, more obvious larger bits of shreaded wood in it, not fully decomposed. I'm still buying and using it but don't like it as much as I used to. It's just "ok." Some folks swear by mixes high in rice hulls, and from rose show results, they must have something going. But it seems awfully expensive to me. I don't know. Don't consider myself an "expert" on soil.

Naslarana, I'm scratching my head about your "Dr. Mildew" comment, thinking you're referring to powdery mildew, which I believe primarily effects the leaves and new stems, not the roots. So why would rootstock make any difference? Also, Dr. Huey is prominent precisely because of the dominence for many decades of the California rose trade. Dr. H. is considered ideal for California, just not all other places. So I'm surprised you are disappointed with it there.

Mike

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone from the desert areas of Arizona or Calif can offer some insight to me on special considerations I may need to take for own root vs. grafted roses.

I'm located in the Phoenix area, and have never grown an own-root rose (at least to my knowledge). I currently have over 30 healthy and happy grafted roses.

Thanks!
Ryan

phoexnixRyan, the plant will be smaller and have a smaller root system than a typical grafted rose. Due to the smaller root system the plant may need some extra TLC to survive a Phoenix summer. So, a thicker mulch and more attention to watering might be the special considerations.
Maybe also buying in the early fall rather than in the spring, so the plant has the fall/winter/spring to grow before it faces an AZ summer.

Based on 10 years of growing both grafted and own roots in this location and 10 years at previous locations with grafted plants only, I would say it takes 5 years ownroot vs 3 years grafted to get a strongly blooming, well established HT. Austins are faster, maybe 1 year behind grafted vs 2 years behind for HTs. I am in zone 9B where the growing season is about 365 days a year--so it might take longer in a shorter growing season.

Thanks, that's good information. I have a place in the garden that I can ensure shelter during the afternoon. I'll just baby them a bit more till I'm sure they are established.

Pretty much 365 growing days here as well, I'll just be sure to get them in good soil with a good organic mix.

Thanks!

i personally like own root and most of my roses are such. i do not even see a lag behind the grafted ones either. i believe that they are just more natural looking as well and hardier. much of my roses are in containers and i simply use a #4 sunshine mix with a little blood and bone thrown in when planting. epsom salts here and there and fish fertilizer occasionally and they have surpassed my expectations.
i have found that the sunshine works well in the ground and in the pots.i am following a master rosarians method and he uses #4 as well when he pots up his field roses and his minis. drainage i believe is the key

This is an interesting subject I have spend a lot of time and energy on, and I really like hearing others opinon :-)

I wish some of the large rose producers would give us their knowlege or that someone does a large scale test of rootstocks in differnt locations that last at least 6 years. Kordes, Meilland and others must have lots of experience in this, not to mention nurseries in US.

There are some old tests (1940's and 50's) that lasted 7 years or so, with field grown roses where the grafted roses did much better than any ownroot. For Europe north of the Alps three roses as rootstock came out better than others: Laxa, multiflora and a few canina varieties.

Personally I have grown and observed alba roses like Minette, Maiden's Blush, Felicite Parmentier both as grafted plants and grown from rooted cuttings. In most cases all the grafed ones are larger even after something like 30-50 years (I have only planted roses the last 10 years). They say a grafed rose live on average something like 5 years, but some varieties really grow old as grafted plants. Maiden's Blush and Felicite Parmentier does not sucker much, if at all. Most likely it is the canina understock that is the root of these plants.These varieties are well worth growing ownroot and have vigour and resilience enough to stand on their ownfeet almost any where.

In the rosarium in my town they grow a lot of rugosas, many of them really don't need any help from canina roots, or any other. Still they often are produced as grafted plants. I think it was Fru Dagmar Hastrup that was bought and planted on canina roots and did fine on them for a long time. Something like 6 years later they dug the plants up, sawed of the rootstock that still was the main root on all plants. This was done as an experiment and in hope that the plant would not grow as tall. They got the desired result, about 50 cm (just under two feet) shorter. The plants looked just as good on canina roots as ownroot. What I find interesting here it the fact that these rugosas do very well ownroot and really have no problem with the climate in any way. It seams that the understock gives the plant extra growth and energy.

I have noticed this with climbers too, New Dawn, Blaze and a few climbing hybrid teas. They grow taller no doubt, and often look healthier and more resilient than ownroot plants.

Floribundas and hybrid teas are even more dependent on streangth from the rootstock, and mostly there are no contest at all between ownroot and grafted. Pots seam to be the exeption and with extra care some grow into fine plants. I have read that multiflora does better in pots than other rootstocks. I have not had the chance to test this out, but multiflora does very well in pots.

One of the arguments of those who produce ownroot roses is that grafted roses is less costly and done with less laber. This is not true. There was a time when grafting roses was considered both more expensive and more work, but the end result was found better.

Another argument is that ownroot plants often look better in the garden and often will grow more shapely. This is not true either, I state this with observations from both the south of France and Northern Europe. A very long time ago grafting of roses was done with different techniques (in the time of Gertrude Jekyll). I don't know of any roses that is many with any other method than "oculation" (I don't know if this is the right term in English): Where a tiny T-shaped cut is made on the root-neck of the rootstock and an eye from the disired rose is slided under the fresh bark in the T-shaped cut. The root-stock is slightly pulled up from the soil, for the neck of the root to be exposed. This gives the plants by far much the same shape as a rose grown on its own roots. The budding point is not easily detected and the plants are not more leggy than ownroots. I dare state that there is no difference is shape even when grown right next to an ownroot rose of the same variety.

After making such a rant about this, I have to mention that I happily rot cuttings of almost any rose :-)

Taoseeker, good to hear input from experience in Western Europe. I was glad to hear you say multiflora is a good performer in pots, because I just acquired my first ever multiflora-grafted roses (Red Intuition and Pink Intuition), which I am growing in pots. Hearing that it was a vigorous rootstock, I had my concerns about suitability for pots, but when mine arrived, I saw that the roots, though numerous, did not appear nearly so thick as Dr. Huey. So many they WILL like pot life just fine.

As for your observations that grafted roses consistently do better, maybe that is somewhat a product of you region. Once again, I have to echo the sentiments from earlier in the thread that these things are somewhat location- and variety-dependent. My own experience is mostly with hybrid teas and miniatures. I have grown just a handful of ht varieties on both Dr. Huey and own-root, and can say that a few did remarkably well own-root, though perhaps just "equal" to the grafted, not superior to them. The ones that come to mind for me are Paradise, Gold Medal, Tiffany, and Peace. Gold Medal, and Paradise, in particular, took off like gangbusters from a cutting and looked like two-year old grafted roses by the end of their first growing season.

You are of course right about this being a product of my region, and mostly it is the cold winters that makes grafting an advantage. I suspect that in dry or sandy soil some varieties will do better grafed too. I mentioned that roses like Maiden's Blush or Felicite Parmentier and a few rugosas often still grow a bit faster and taller as grafted but it's really not that important with these roses. They look just as good and flower just as well as the grafted ones, either way they are more than tall enough :-) I have Great Western and Louise Odier on their own root, and I will not bother to check if they do any better grafted.

Hi Mike
It is very interesting to hear that hybrid teas grow better ownroot than grafted. Peace might be worth a try in the ground here to, it must be among the most hardy HT.

One possibility is to let nature decide which is better. Plant your grafted rose on an angle with the bud line below ground. (This is not an original suggestion with me.)

With roses like Peace that have been soooo widely grown, there are many specimens for sale, at least in the U.S., that are infected with rose mosaic virus. That, of course, will significantly impact vigorousness, productivity, disease resistance and cold-hardiness. So getting yours from a reputable vendor who takes the effort to sell clean stock is well worth the trouble.
I'm in no way an expert on cold climate gardening, but some in the north and upper midwest report that the rootstocks are most helpful in the first couple of years when the grafted plant is still young. Planting it with the bud union deep in the soil helps it to eventually establish ownroots along with the rootstock roots. So eventually you can have a rose that is BOTH grafted and ownroot.
Taoseeker, are you familiar with the Griffith Buck roses developed in Iowa. Mr. Buck specifically bred roses for cold hardiness, and I'm just guessing that his roses could be able to do fine on their own roots in colder climates, at least to zone 5 and perhaps 4.

Mike, I have mainly roses on fortuniana. One of your positives is a negative for me. I live on a tiny city lot, as many in Florida do. The roses get so huge that I can only have a few if I let them grow as big as they want. I cut them back a ton which dimishes blooming somewhat but I'd just have a tangle of jack-in-the beanstalk roses if I didn't. I'd love to get roses that will stay small. I have been growing Austins own root for a number of years with no problems, but it may be because they are part old rose. I just bought Valentine and Sunflare own root. I'm curious to see how they do.
Here is Traviata on fortuniana, it is supposed to grow 2-5'. The fence is 6'. I have cut off several feet of this rose with a palm tree pruner and it is still huge.
{{gwi:325222}}
Nancy

My own personal experience with this question proves to me that the grafted rose takes off growing earlier and sooner in it's life every year while it takes the own root rose a few years to establish itself and until then is a lesser rose bush. However, once the own root is established it is at least as good and mostly even better than the grafted rose. More vigor, disease resistance, heavier blooming, and bigger flowers. They also live longer I think.
One thing to remember is that most grafted roses when left alone with it's bud union buried sufficiently deep enough will produce own cultivar roots from above the bud union which help the rose along as it matures.
I have seen this several times like with a grafted and own root Veterans' Honor. Both are now excellent red roses, but the own root is the better rose now, but not by that much.
John

One other angle- I have 3 or so roses that are black on top from cold cane damage. They are own root. I just saw some growth starting to peek out of the ground. If they were grafted, they would be toast (other than the rootstock). No doubt own root takes a while to get going though.

No, grafted roses planted deep come back true from underground. It's one of the reasons we bury the bud unions.