Cartilage rejuvenation research to help alleviate painful joints

last year

As I was unable to refer to this in the title of my message referring to the destruction of the dinosaurs, I wanted to make it available here.
Canadian national radio's science program spoke of research on cartilage rejuvenation on Sat. 22 Jan '22, to alleviate the pain of bone rubbing on bone, e.g. in joints.
They have used electrical stimulation on rabbits to cause some material in joints to draw material from the blood to rebuid cartilage cushions between bone ends in those joints.
Hear it at www.cbc.ca/quirks (maybe www.cbcradio.ca/quirks).
ole joyful

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foodonastump

last year

last modified: last year

Thanks Sephia - I’m not sure now which of the surgeons said that; there’s one I have little confidence in despite his resume and his working for a top hospital. Muscle loss is definitely an issue at this point, and something I’ve been concerned about. I’ll be starting fresh with new doctors this year. A poster here had a solid recommendation for one.

As for new technologies, yes the magic wand has been elusive but hearing about new ones can be interesting. Same could be said for a lot in medicine. I know people who have dished out many thousands for unproven stem cell treatments which succeeded only in costing them money.

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Comments (19)

Fun2BHere
last year
Thank you!
joyfulguy thanked Fun2BHere
sephia_wa
last year
Yes, very interesting. I just had a total knee replacement in Dec. I had just a thread of cartilage left. I had my left one done in 2012.

Knock on wood - my hips are fine.
joyfulguy thanked sephia_wa
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Sorry this is long. I found this message thread very interesting because over 3 and a half years ago I was diagnosed with Inflammatory Rheumatoid Arthritis. My doctor said it was 'triggered' by an antibiotic that I was given that I had an allergic reaction to. In one month I went from hiking 8 miles and not breaking a sweat and doing climbing walls to being so disabled with pain and swelling in my feet, hands, my joints ached and sensations in my legs (needed to sleep on my back with legs up on pillows) that I had to get pants with elastic. The doctor told me that I would be disabled and on meds the rest of my life. He could not explain to me sufficiently how this could happen in one month. I refused meds and toughed it out. The first month I felt sorry for myself and was a couch potato. Then I kicked myself and started to read. That was about the only thing I could do. This is what I found out and how I beat my diagnosis. I found that when we reach around the age of 40 our body slowly diminishes it's production of our super antioxidant glutathione. This is a major player in the proper functioning of our immune system and regulates so many body systems that I am not going to list all of them here. The one I am going to mention is that it does regulate the hormones. When this is depleted via the severe immune response that happens when you receive a vaccination the body's cells and gut (80% of our immune system is regulated from there) is no longer protected because of oxidative stress. When the gut is compromised the body absorption of vit. D is diminished. Now another thing to take into consideration is family medical history. Is there allergies or auto-immune disease in the family? If this is true then there is the possibility that there could be any one or more of these factors: 1) defective GSH (glutathione) gene; 2) elevated levels of free floating IgE in the body; 3) increased levels of histamine release from mast cells. These are the most important. Because I found that RA was an auto-immune issue likely caused by my allergic reaction to the anti-biotic I had to deal with the inflammation and find how I could diminish this. First I started with diet. What foods can cause inflammation and eliminate them? I eliminated all processed sugars and went to honey for a start. Then I found what to add to my diet to increase my body production of glutathione (I was 58 at onslaught of RA). I added more fruits and green veggies (increasing my vit C & E). As I researched further I found that whey protein helps intensify the C & E so I started taking a whey suppliment. With the changes in diet initially I saw slow impovement in 1 month. When I added the whey protein I saw improvement in 2 weeks. It took 2 years for my body to heal itself and I was pretty much symptom free and pain free. The only problem I had left was my gut. I believe I had IBS (irritable bowel symdrome). I never went back to the doctor so this is my diagnosis of the symptoms that I had. My gut would feel funny (I called the five minute warning) and I would have to find a bathroom fast. Every store I went to I knew where the restroom was just in case. Further research was done to find out that Autistic children are glutathione deficient and their gut problems diminished after going gluten free. Hummmmm I pondered this for about 1 day and decided to minimize my gluten and test the foods I did eat to see what reactions I would have. I no longer eat standard breads or pastas. I can eat rye bread and one bun with unbleached white bread for my hamburgers. (I love my food, sorry.) I can also eat the pasta that is labeled semolina pasta. Don't understand why but I can but I do not overdo it. I have been reading labels for 2 years now and I am pretty much (money is a little tight) all natural foods, frozen veggies, etc. As of one year ago I am now totally symptom free. Wohoo! My only problem is that I know I will never be 100% ever again. I do have energy level problems so I do everything in moderation. I have to take a power nap every afternoon. I lost 35 - 40 lbs of muscle mass so I can't do some of the strenuous things I used to. But the upside is that my allergic responses to seasonal pollens are next to non-existant. No flu or colds (this was a concern of mine). Over all with my auto-immune issue it is all under control and people are amazed that I ever had RA and was 95% disabled. This is my story. Do your own research. If your doctor will not test for glutathione deficiency (warning: they will not) ask them to test for magnesium deficiency. Glutathione deficiency goes hand in hand with magnesium deficiency. Foot note: Glutathione supplements do not work because the body does not absorb the glutathione. The best way is to get the body to produce more. Here is a link that might be useful: Histamine
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foodonastump
last year
Wish it were available like… this week. As I’ve posted before I’m procrastinating double TKR but I’m close to my breaking point.
joyfulguy thanked foodonastump
Ninapearl
last year
where do i sign up???!!! my right knee has been bone on bone for 4 years now and like foodonastump, i am reaching the point where it's do or die. i dread TKR and am planning to wait till spring when hopefully, elective surgeries will be back on schedule. in the meantime, i've taken to using a walker around the house. the last cortisone injection a few weeks ago lasted about 3 days. i'm going in on 2/7 to give the gel injection a try.

my "tin hips" are 22 years old this year and going strong.

getting old sucks!!!
joyfulguy thanked Ninapearl
Annie Deighnaugh
last year
You could always try leeches: https://www.webmd.com/arthritis/news/20031103/knee-pain-from-arthritis-try-leeches#:~:text=In%20recent%20times%2C%20several%20anti,knee%20rapidly%20relieved%20osteoarthritis%20pain.
joyfulguy thanked Annie Deighnaugh
Ninapearl
last year
noooooooo!!!!!! 🤣
sephia_wa
last year
last modified: last year
Ninapearl, don't fear getting a TKR. Mine was so easy and uneventful. Surgical techniques have vastly improved. My left one in 2012 was uneventful too, but the healing on my right one has been amazing. I was only on narcotic pain meds for a few days. My surgeon used a "quad sparing" approach meaning that he didn't cut the quadriceps muscle, unlike what was done in 2012. The one in Dec. was an outpatient procedure, and while I initially was a bit apprehensive about that, it was fine. So don't wait too much longer because the longer you wait, the more damage is being done to the joint.
Elmer J Fudd
last year
last modified: last year
Over 15 years ago, one of my kids, while an undergrad, worked in a professor's biomedical lab where research was being done on cartilage, both as to possible replacement materials and rejuvenation possibilities. I didn't listen to the radio program linked but the cartilage issue seems to be like research to find and understand the so-called "God Particle" or centuries ago the mystical Fountain of Youth - many people looking for it, still unresolved.
joyfulguy thanked Elmer J Fudd
foodonastump
last year
last modified: last year
“So don't wait too much longer because the longer you wait, the more damage is being done to the joint.”

If it’s being totally replaced what’t it matter? I was specifically told there’s no risk in delaying beyond quality of life.

I’m trying to get a straight answer on the risks of snowboarding after TKR. My knees balloon after half a day of riding but so far I’m putting up with that as well as daily pain and discomfort, in exchange for a few days on the mountain.

I’ve wanted to get gel injections but doctors keep telling me it won’t help, despite them keeping my father on bone-bone knees for the last decades of his life. I don’t get it.
joyfulguy thanked foodonastump
joyfulguy
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
The research team claims to be having positive results with the bunnies, Elmer.

ole joyful
Elmer J Fudd
last year
If you take a cruise around the online world, you''ll find there are many studies in many different places, each continuing to explore different wrinkles and approaches to the vexing problem. Knowledge and understanding develop at a snail's pace and with many blind alleys. Nothing happens until it happens - the mechanism of any one approach needs to be understood and shown to be consistent and results repeatable by others. Research findings frequently seem promising and then are later found to have been in error or at least not what they first seemed to be.

Stay tuned. My earlier comment was simply to suggest that my very limited exposure to the topic suggests this has long been an area of great research interest. For now and likely for many years to come, bone on bone joint problems from various causes will be treated as now, which for knees and hips means surgery to replace damaged joints with artificial ones. Procedures now performed in great numbers and with consistently positive patient outcomes.
joyfulguy thanked Elmer J Fudd
Ninapearl
last year
Ninapearl, don't fear getting a TKR. Mine was so easy and uneventful. Surgical techniques have vastly improved.

that's good to know! i'm not really fearful of the procedure (i've had both hips replaced), it's the recovery period i'm not looking forward to. your post gives me hope that it'll be easier than i'm thinking it might be!

i know how much hip surgery has changed since mine. both of my incisions are 13" long, now they're doing minimally invasive THRs through 3" incisions!

the reason i'm waiting for spring is that having it done during the winter months would be dicey. a 4" snowfall pretty much brings everything around here to a screeching halt and we still have 2 months of winter left, at least. 🤦‍♀️
joyfulguy thanked Ninapearl
joyfulguy
Original Author
last year
last modified: last year
Yes, cartilage issues are a major problem for millions and a very complex issue to find means of mitigation, let alone solution.

My impression was that these research people were making a few more steps along that long journey.

It appears that some people here appreciated the information, and some may find inspiration to pursue the matter further.

How unfortunate that such a large proportion of the sufferers will never be able to afford treatment.

ole joyful
sephia_wa
last year
last modified: last year
foodonastump, three orthopedic surgeons in Seattle told me that delaying TKR surgery can result in more damage. I was told these things can occur:
- Damaged to bones and joints: The longer you wait, the more wear and tear of tissues around the knee occurs. It can lead to further damage that reaches the bone, along with increased pain.
- Weakening of surrounding muscle and tissue: Constant inflammation, increased pressure, and limited mobility could prevent proper movements, resulting in weakened muscles. The more pain you feel, the less you’ll move. This leads to the degradation of muscles, making your leg more vulnerable. Ninapearl says she's using a walker to get around.
- Risk of injury: With restricted mobility, the other knee can be damaged because of constant pressure from relying on your good knee. You're more prone to falling when your stability is weak.
- Surgical complications: The extent of the damage being done increases, making the surgery take longer and more complex.
- Increased recovery time: Recovery takes longer the older one gets.
That's what I was told by three different orthopedic surgeons. If you were told differently, you should follow whatever you were told.
joyfulguy thanked sephia_wa
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MDLN
last year
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/orthopaedic-surgery/specialty-areas/sports-medicine/cartilage-regeneration.html
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Elmer J Fudd
last year
last modified: last year
The ink is still wet on the fellowship certificates of the two Hopkins guys and at least according to their web pages, neither is yet board certified. Both are new to Johns Hopkins.

Research is on-going at dozens of places, including many of the big-name usual suspect research institutions, as it has been for a good while. That was the type of institution my kid was at. I'm not aware of any procedures blessed and ready for prime time widespread application, Mdln, do you believe otherwise?.
joyfulguy thanked Elmer J Fudd
sephia_wa
last year
last modified: last year
I did a quick search. I don't know anything about these.

https://www.cartilageregenerationcenter.com/

https://www.vanthielmd.com/groundbreaking-knee-cartilage-regeneration-treatments/

https://www.swedish.org/services/regenerative-medicine - this is in Seattle. I've heard about it but don't know anything about it.
joyfulguy thanked sephia_wa
Elmer J Fudd
last year
It's enough for me. These procedures are new and total knee replacements are still the order of the day. Good luck to all.
joyfulguy thanked Elmer J Fudd

Cartilage rejuvenation research to help alleviate painful joints

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