Z5 Midwest climbers? Own-root vs Grafted???
Comments (13)
Madison Post
2 years agoRelated Discussions
Why own-root roses are healthier than grafted?
Comments (34)Today January 2, I dug up Comte de Chambord, grafted of Multiflora rootstock. Bluegirl had it for a few years in her alkaline Texas, didn't bloom well so she gave to me, since I have more rain. As multiflora-rootstock, Comte bloomed OK in spring but stingy afterwards, while my 2 other Comte as OWN-ROOT bloom profusely with 4 flushes until snow hit. I have Comte-on-multiflora for 2 years. It's so stingy in the summer I moved it next to the rain-spout in July. Its root was the same size as my marigold !! It became even stingier, despite my using the entire bag of coarse sand to make my clay fluffy. So I dug up Comte grafted on multiflora today, Jan 2, and IT WAS THE MOST PATHETIC multiflora rootstock that I had ever seen in my 3 decades of growing roses !! I already posted the study that showed Fortuniana-rootstock produces more blooms than Dr. Huey, and Dr. Huey produces more blooms than multiflora-rootstock. Left side is Comte de Chambord grafted on multiflora rootstock, right side is a snapdragon annual flower root (sown from seed !!). The snapdragon-flower root is actually larger than the multiflora-rootstock. This 4+ year-old Multiflora-rootstock actually SHRANK in my alkaline clay, despite tons of acidic rain. And it REFUSED to give me own-roots at the side like Dr. Huey-rootstock. Picture taken today, Jan 2 at 39 F or 4 C. Re-post info. from Oct. 2016: Comparing Dr. Huey-rootstock, Multiflora-rootstock, and Fortuniana-rootstock from below link, worth reading: http://roses4az-mevrs.org/wp-content/uploads/An-Overview-of-Fortuniana.pdf Here in the Desert Southwest, with our generally alkaline soils and extreme temperatures, we find that r. multiflora has a shorter life span, losing its vigor after five years. While fortuniana bushes had superior root systems, they had difficulty with the harsh & cold English climate. In a study over several years, Dr. McFadden budded two hybrid tea varieties, Queen Elizabeth and Tiffany, onto three different rootstocks. After counting the number of blooms produced over many growing seasons, the varieties budded onto fortuniana produced significantly more blooms. The fortuniana plants produced about THREE TIMES the number of blooms as those on multiflora and TWICE as many as on Dr. Huey. Additional benefits of Fortuniana include increased resistance to gall, stem dieback, and root disease, such as Phytophtora and Pythium. Bushes planted over 40 years ago in Florida are still thriving. On this rootstock, plants are heavier feeders, as they have five times the feeder roots of more common varieties." http://roses4az-mevrs.org/wp-content/uploads/An-Overview-of-Fortuniana.pdf...See Morenew dawn—own root vs grafted root question
Comments (11)Hi Saki Glad these comments were helpful, and we're always eager to help a beginning rose grower feel confident with their roses. The photo you posted is a lovely and very mature specimen of what looks like two or maybe even 3 climbing roses all splayed out horizontally along the fence. You can see one "fan" of canes spreading out from just right of center and another fan spreading from the left 1/3 of the photo. I can't tell if the cane stretching straight up in the center is part of a third plant with a few lateral canes or not. This effect is definitely a great thing to strive for, but I'd be totally depressed if I tried to get all my climbers to look like this, since not all climbers put out as many primary canes coming straight out of the soil as this one does. I'll show you two contrasting climbers for example. Colette looks the most like the photo above with several canes coming straight out of the soil that I'm encouraging sideways on my fence. Do remember that climbing roses have to be secured in some way to the fence - they won't climb on their own like clematis or other vines will. Mine is probably 3 years old, and you can see that it has three main canes out of the soil (I usually call them primary canes in a climber, but they come out of the base and I presume the terms are the same thing). Mine is own-root so there isn't a graft from which these canes split off, but if I'd buried my graft the 2-4" that is recommended in cold zones, it would look a lot like this too. Now, the reason you distinguish between primary canes and laterals in a climber, is that your blooms aren't mostly going to be directly on those primary canes that you bend sideways. Even in a young climber like this, you can see that the blooms are in smaller off-shoot canes that branch off vertically from these horizontal main canes - we call these lateral canes. The main/primary canes are toward the bottom of the fence, but the blooming laterals stretch up a good 2-3' higher than the primary canes. The more horizontal you can stretch your canes, the more likely the rose will put out laterals all the way along the length of those primary canes. That means you can have a fence full of blooms from only a few primary canes, even if the rose puts out a limited "fan" of canes. As Colette ages, she might put out more base canes, but I doubt I'd get the rich "forest" of canes in the photo above even when she's mature - particularly in any climbers that lose cane over the winter. Still, I'm confident she'll fill this part of the fence in another 2 years or so. Here's another rose that for me grows in a somewhat different habit. I've only seen one primary cane off the base of my Lunar Mist, and it's more like 4-5 years old. I bend it sideways in the same way as I do the Colette above, and it sends up laterals all along the length. Same principles of laterals and primary canes as above, it's just that the base of the rose is at one end of the array and the blooms arch off to one side off the primary cane that I've bent sideways. You can't quite see the base of Lunar Mist here, but it's off to the right and below the picture here, below where the clematis is. My New Dawn never got mature in the poor location under my oak tree, and we'll see what the new grafted version wants to do now, but at the moment it just has one big cane that I've stretched sideways like the Lunar Mist above. Climbers are very different when young vs. when mature, though, so you have to be patient with them. It usually takes at least 4-5 years before a climber has built up enough root structure to support a robust blooming rose, and not all of them will build this kind of fan structure very widely. Some will be more of a "rainbow" like my Lunar Mist. Regardless, the principle is the same and we encourage more growth of canes from the base in climbers as we do in any rose, with adequate water, maybe some alfalfa to encourage basal breaks, and patience, patience, patience. The rose will "tell" you what it wants to do over time. Just be sure to bend the young canes sideways when it's young, as robust climbers like New Dawn can get pretty stiff and woody in their primary canes over time, and they're much harder to bend. Hope that helps. Cynthia...See Moreown-root vs grafted
Comments (8)I bought all my roses this spring (impulse purchase) and some of them were bought too late to deal with our summer as I can see now... both kinds were 1 gallon plants... Some are getting significantly bigger than others... even own-roots... I have Savannah own-root 1 gallon... Now it almost naked and I didn't see sunburn on it at all... I'm covering it now well from this sun... Decided that the lack of direct sun at this point is better than killing it... but have all 4 grafted that got either sunburn or canker at some point... Well, that is my short experience so far :) I want to add couple of climbers and started thinking what to choose, grafted or own-root for them... since I'm pretty sure that I will have my tries and learn curves with burning legs of climbers... want to be wise this time :) Thank you that you took your time to share your experience!...See MoreOwn Root vs . Graft
Comments (24)When I was browsing Heirlooms site, my impression was they were very anti-graft, but I also sorta concluded because they were primarily selling own root , there was some slight bias. Upon stumbling across the videos trying to see how shrubs look when grown, my initial concerns about own root were very clear when looking at how the ~many canes~ vs the grafted/budded/formed cane framework. "can be worth a try, but you might want to see if you could get an own-root and a grafted plant of the same variety to try them together and see if there really is a difference where you are. Good luck with whatever you decide" That sounds like a 3-4 year test minimum like most shrubs. Settle in on the 1st year, and then by year 3, they really take off. I've got a boxwood hedge that I chose knowing it grows 1-2" per year. It's like watching paint dry each year. At this point in my life, I'm all about the instant gratification, albit gardening is teaching me patience. When buying certain shrubs, I'm buying the largest G I am willing to pay for the size. My order is in with DA already and most of them are grafted. I might take some cuttings down the road to observe my own-root curiosity, but many have said the grafted will take off faster, and quite frankly, as much as I think I like the framework more of own-root, I'd rather have growth....See MoreMadison Post
2 years ago
Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
2 years agoI have a 2 year old John Cabot that has been great for me so far. Very cold hardy, mine is partially sheltered by the southeast corner of my house. Singular and clustered blooms that bees like with a light, nice fragrance. And FALL COLOR! Very thorny, but cane hardy. Mine grew to 4 feet this year (after being planted late last summer as a tiny twig band). I look forward to seeing how much size it puts on next year.
Madison Post thanked Mischievous Magpie (CO 5b)
mmmm12COzone5
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoI had a big beautiful Dr. Huey (presumed). Cane hardy and bloomed reliably once every year.
But I got on this forum and learned about repeat bloomers. So we took it out and I have been trying to get a climber going in it's place ever since. Dr. Huey, however, does not give up and keeps pushing sprouts up from root fragments. We have pulled them out multiple times per year every year but they keep coming. A couple of reasons we took Dr. Huey out were the color was too dark for this area and the canes kept intruding on the walkway and needed to constantly be pruned back. So I thought something smaller and more behaved would be good. Plus I was enamored with the thought of all season blooms in this spot. Maybe a climbing rose isn't right for this spot.Here is one part of one years growth Dr. Huey with 3 yrs growth of Fourth of July. Fourth of July is pathetic beside Dr. Huey. :-)
I still have hope for Candy Land. I love her because her flowers stay around forever and a day. But she was not cane hardy in her first year. Matt says she grows big at a local event center so I'm going to see if she toughens up this year. She also has a naturally pleasing shape. So far her growth habit has been well behaved.Below is Candy Land (in the foreground) at 1 year old. Pic. taken Aug. 29 2021 and she was planted as a band from High Country Roses 5/20.
But I have to agree that the Canadian Explorers are probably the way to go. I haven't gotten them as they are reported to be monsters and I was looking for a more well tamed rose for my spots. Behind Candy Land is Winnipeg Parks (the good looking bush with pink roses). She had been a fantastic rose for me. But of course not a climber.I do have one monster rose, Robusta, but it isn't a climber. It is in a spot with loads of room and fits well there. But after dealing with it, we are leery of adding another monster rose.
Sally Holmes climbs for some but for me it is a bush that isn't cane hardy. Lady in Red is also not cane hardy for me.Above All is a new one, planted 6/20 so too early to tell. Here it is at one yr old. It got moved at the beginning of the year so isn't well established in this spot.
I had a Pinata that didn't make it but was in a bad spot. When it died we replaced it with Above All which made it through the winter there but then we moved it to the rock rose bed early 2021 which is where the above picture is from.All mine are own root.
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2 years ago
bellarosa