other features?

SHGC?

double pane? triple pane? argon filled? exterior finish color? interior material / wood?

Possibly, if I had to do it all over again - I might just go with a local storefront manufacturer who is doing custom extrusions and spec'ing their own glass (but only if I wanted that more commercial look and aluminimum interiors.)

@just_janni

other features?

SHGC?

double pane? triple pane? argon filled? exterior finish color? interior material / wood?

-- I can't think of any other features at this point, other than maybe bug screens on the operable windows.

There is some variety in the performance numbers, for instance the Alpen is U=0.14 and SHGC=0.28, while the Aluprof (in triple glaze) is 0.19 and 0.25.

I'd like to go with triple pane if the cost differential is small (seems to be about 10%?).

I prefer aluminum, not aluminum clad wood.

At this point I'm just trying to decide which of these to focus on, because they all have options that can be played around with and it's a bit overwhelming working with so many manufacturers.

Do any of these jump out at you as obvious "stay away from these" or "these look great" options?

Any particular reason for your aluminum preference versus other materials?

Since they are not NFRC, how do you know that Aluprof (in triple glaze) actually is 0.19 and 0.25?

I don't know Access (or any of the other companies that you mention with the exception of Alpen), but Access does have good performance numbers and the are NFRC as is Reynaers. Although I am curious abut Reynaers installing the IGU into the sash on site for a residential application rather than installing the IGU in the window factory. Frankly that idea doesn't fill me with confidence all things considered.

I would also suggest that you consider taking a very serious look at Innotech north of you in BC near Vancouver. They are vinyl, but make a very nice window. As a comparison, Innotech offers a tilt/turn with U .13, SHGC .34, and VT 44%.

My preference for aluminum, perhaps misguided, comes from wanting a more sustainable material, as well as a strong antipathy to vinyl after 25 years of owning Milgard windows, which always feel flimsy when I open the large windows.

I am pretty certain that the uPVC windows we're talking about here are completely different from my old Milgard windows, so I am open minded. Based on your two comments, it sounds like I should reconsider? I realize that uPVC is an inherently better insulator than aluminum, but some folks I talk to say that due to its high thermal expansion, it's a nuisance for larger windows. Is that valid?

@oberon476, good question about Aluprof - the local importer did supply me with a thermal report which he claims they never had a problem getting accepted, but my building department said they will want to see an NFRC sticker - so not having that is a little scary.

I also was surprised by the field assembly of Reynaers, but the shop that quoted it said that that is how Reynaers operates - they only supply the frames, and IGU is installed in the field. I agree, I don't like it - maybe I should check with Reynaers on that issue.

I've seen you recommend Innotech in the past, so I will check with them as well - especially if I open the trade space to uPVC.

So, do you guys have a preference for uPVC over aluminum, and am I being dumb by trying to go against the flow?

I do not not about uPVC and modern. They always have very wide band around it...

Not familiar with any of those brands - but look like decent quality. IMO anytime you have a passive house line and certifications - you are on the right track, performance wise.

Is window "L" an egress window?

Where is the home/climate?

I'm struggling with the 6" wide band of some of these T&T windows - that's a lot of frame for some of the smaller windows. Some of these manufacturers have a "slim line", which might be helpful.

@Mark Bischak, Architect Yes, "L" is the egress window from the ADU, but will be changed to a door as discussed on my other thread. I was showing the elevations just for reference here.

@Windows on Washington Ltd We'll be in Sandy OR, just outside of Portland.

Always compare apples to apples.

Get installation costs for the others as its likely several will need to be glazed onsite. Installation costs may range from under $10k to $40K+ based on that 6 figure number you already have.

Also check bids for substitutions. Most window bids are not for the "job" but for their list which is often modified from the plans to fit the manufacturer's capabilities.

Yes, I'll definitely try to compare apples to apples (installed price).

I don't understand the substitutions comment, could you please expand?

"I don't understand the substitutions comment, could you please expand?"

Make sure that windows quoted are apples to apples, that the specs match for each and are truly what you want. IE all double or triple panel, receptors, operable or fixed, sizing is the same, finish (all the same, painted or anodized), etc., etc..

OK, got it, that makes sense!

Companies are want to substitute when they feel like it depending on their "standards or options", not always what you truly want.

@BT They don't always have a wide frame. That varies a lot and most companies have thinner ones now.

I talked to the Kneer rep today and am a bit discouraged. Their T&T frames are indeed 5" wide, and on windows with fixed and operable elements side by side, the middle post is 7" wide. That's almost the width of a sheet of paper, and is not at all the clean look we're hoping for.

He said that other manufacturers have "slim" lines (which I've seen, e.g the Reynaers SL line) but they are not suitable for large windows. Not sure I agree, the Reynaers quote had SL-38 even for the big windows.

Still, I am rethinking the whole T&T idea. I really like some of the features, but the huge frame widths are discouraging.

Aluminum store front type windows are super expensive and that usually separates the cost of your project from the pack. Always upgrade to the biggest rollers IMHO.

Add for tilt and turn. Add for large glass, needing more thickness, spacing, heavier frames, onsite glazing, bigger hardware to handle weight. Possibly a small forklift and 2-3 workers to offload the shipment.

Frames will get thicker for most functions besides fixed. Some compensate with "deeper" frames.

Can you recommend a T&T manufacturer with slim frame profiles? I think 5" wide frame is going to be a deal breaker for us.

Wider frames are pretty common on tilt turns, especially vinyl, so your best bet for thinner frames might be in aluminum, which takes us back to where you first started.

Not saying that there aren't thin frame vinyl, but the ones I am familiar with are all wider.

One additional comment on vinyl window frames (just in case). Earlier you mentioned having 25 year old vinyl windows that never really impressed you, but like most things the technology for the higher-end products is a lot better today than it was 25 years ago, so don't necessarily judge what you had in the past with what you might get today.

Also, and not sure if you already know this or not, but just in case...while it's not uncommon for some European window companies and some Euro window advocates (Matt Risinger, for example, does it ad nauseum in several of his videos), to go on about how European uPVC is inherently superior to "vinyl" used in North American windows, in fact uPVC, PVC and vinyl are all the same base material. The difference is in what it's called, not what it is. The u in uPVC means unplasticized and uPVC, PVC, and vinyl, whatever someone wants to call it, are all unplasticized.

That doesn't mean that the quality of the vinyl used in windows is all identical, it isn't, but comparing uPVC to vinyl is misleading at the very least.

Realistically, you are in a very moderate climate, so using thermally broken aluminum where you live is certainly not a deal breaker by any means. Also while I like triples, once again where you live triples are nice but hardly a necessity.

I would also suggest in any case that you avoid low solar heat gain coatings in your new windows because you would probably benefit a lot more from moderate to high solar heat gain windows in Western Oregon.

@oberon476 Thank you as always. I definitely realize that my view of vinyl (aka PVC aka uPVC :)) is biased based on my experience with cheap 25 year old Milgard windows. But form what I've seen, the cost differential is not all that large for aluminum, and the aluminum has thinner profiles, so as you suggested, I'm likely in the aluminum camp, or switch to an entirely different operation type.

Thank you also for the suggestion on double vs triple glaze, I"ll keep that in mind.

As of now, I think Kneer is out of the running, I can't picture being happy with a 5" wide frame and 7" center post. I talked to Zola today, their AluMinima line is much thinner, about 1.25" for fixed, 4" for T&T, and 5" for center post. Still not the bastion of slimness, but going int he right direction.

I'm also losing the battle of figuring out what comes from where and is assembled by whom. With the global supply chain as it is, "German" may mean assembled using Polish-made components, so I'm having a really hard time deciding what makes one window better than another. I'm an engineer and would like to have some metrics, but other than U value and SHGC, everything seems subjective.

I still need to get smarter on SHGC and coatings. I definitely want too much coating on glass so as to reduce the VT levels, and with most of our exposure being to the south, I hope we won't need much. What values should I be looking/asking for, and would it change depending on exposure side?

Our architects are now suggesting Milgard Trinsic windows. I really like the slim profile of that line, but I still need to get used to the idea of vinyl. We'll go to a showroom today and see how they feel - I hate the feel of our current 25 year old Milgard slider windows, but maybe they improved tremendously :).

@tupi2020. Were you able to go to a showroom and take a look. I'm also looking into getting the Trinsic windows for a new construction project

@Brian Damiani Were you able to go to a showroom and take a look. I'm also looking into getting the Trinsic windows for a new construction project

We did visit showrooms, and decided that we would not be happy with Milgard. it's definitely a lot less expensive than the other options, but it did not have that quality feel that the Reynaers or Marvin or Kolbe had.

At this point we're likely to go with Kneer Sud windows. Which is a 180 deg turn from my earlier posts here about their thicker frames - but their windows are approximately $85K, whereas Zola is $140K and Reynaers is around $120K. I can learn to look past the slightly wider frames for that kind of savings.

Interesting your Zola quote was so expensive. Mine were very competitive with all the other brands. Unfortunately I couldn't go with them due to unique elevation issues. Unilux and Mavrik were less but could do some of my larger windows. Eurotek in LA was the absolute cheapest but their sales rep didn't know anything and they had some limitations as well. I would have loved to go Alpen in Colorado with their new thin triple, as some of my windows are a thousand pounds. But there were two windows they couldn't do. I ended up going with Innotech in Canada which was expensive but did a price match. They were supposed to be a lot lower lead time, but that changed once we ordered, and they made a number of mistakes in our windows. And support was great when we were ordering but not so much now that we have issues.

I was looking for R6 triple pane high SHGC.

We are in the process of ordering the tilt and turn windows from Reynears and have lots of very big windows as well as their lift and slide patio doors. We saw examples on other homes and they were beautiful.

My only concern right now before placing the order is confirming that I can get shades for these inward opening windows. Has anyone got pictures of window coverings they have done with these type of windows?

@tupi2020 Hi, Could you pleas give an update on your window choice? I have been looking for Kneer windows and get a quote for Kneer Sud W72 Aluminum , For my windows roughly $80K ( including tax and shipping) , Zola was around $100K, Fleetwood $60K but Fleetwoood numbers are not great.

When you get aluminum window bids, make sure they include or option thermal broken and the best glass , at least "title 24" or better. These increase costs & performance. Unequal specs make a big bid difference. Opt for best rollers. My choices are always related to good or great local dealer/installer experiences. Two Fleetwood homes over the past 3 years were superb. My experience installing a Fleetwood 26x8 5 panel w flush tracks in 2006 led me back.

@Anna Kotlyar Could you pleas give an update on your window choice? I have been looking for Kneer windows and get a quote for Kneer Sud W72 Aluminum , For my windows roughly $80K ( including tax and shipping) , Zola was around $100K, Fleetwood $60K but Fleetwoood numbers are not great.

Anna, we were all set to order Kneer Sud, we had the whole schedule ready to order, and plans submitted for permitting. They were by far the best deal/value of all the others. Unfortunately the final bids from contractors for the house project came in at about 50% above our budget, so the whole project has been mothballed. We're now working with a different builder/architect team that specializes in modular construction, and we're just getting started. I'd recommend Kneer Sud from all of my lengthy research. We worked very closely with their West coast rep who was super helpful, let me know if you need his contact info.

@tupi2020 Thanks for update, Please, give me contact.

Reach out to Michael Pusch at Fentec consulting - https://fentecconsulting.com/contact-us

Thanks

Got my Reynears installed and I love them. They are beautiful and so well made with great glass which is not distorted, like much glass today. Less expensive too than the brand my contractor originally suggested as these are made in Europe and the exchange rate saved us lots!

Shelley, did you order your Reynaers windows directly in Europe or through the Arizona office?

Sorry for the late reply. I ordered them through a salesman for the company here in Bend, Oregon. Still love them, but the sliding glass doors are a little tricky to lock.

@tupi2020 who was your Reynaers contact? Been working with portland millwork on a window/door replacement project for our new (old) house and also want T&T but have struggled getting prices and getting installation quotes. No one seems to know much about Reynaers. Any help you can send over would be appreciated.

That's odd, Portland Millwork had a large display of Reynaers windows when we visited three years ago.

Our quote came from the Reynaers regional rep:

M. +1 (480) 881-9862

Craig.Shelton@reynaers.com

Installation was quoted by a local installer, and was outrageously high.