First draft DIY Kitchen design & layout - gentle feedback please!
We have been hemming and hawing about a kitchen remodel for years. I think I even have a very old post about it on here somewhere! Well, last year, our home sustained significant damage from a midwest derecho (basically a land hurricane) and "yay!" for insurance and other things that has sort of started the home-renovation snowball for us. (I say that sarcastically because getting anyone out here to do the work has been difficult, though we do have a contractor lined up for this)
What I'm looking for is feedback and another set of eyes on a first draft layout design for our kitchen. Currently, we have a small 13 1/2x 10 1/2 kitchen with doors in weird places, a non ideal layout, plus other problems with layout in our 1902 home. We have literally NO closets on our entire first floor, a bathroom in a weird place, and it's also just old and ugly. Drop tile ceilings in the kitchen, pealing laminate floors, worn out cabinets....it's TIME to do this. We've been putting it off to save and also so we can agree on a layout. And that is where I need some input!
This is roughly our current layout (dimensions on that left bathroom/back porch area aren't exact). Our plan is to tear off the back porch area, and expand in that direction. It's literally the only way we can go. The exterior wall bordering the kitchen (north) runs along our driveway, and we don't want to go south because of sight lines, landscaping, and maintaining the integrity of our home. So....to the west it is! We have roughly 14-15-ish feet we can add on to the west (left, on the layouts below) before it gets dicey with our driveway/landscaping if we go straight out. We plan to use our current dining room as a parlor/living room space because we need it! Our current living room is tiiiiiny.
Current layout (that we hate!) . So many doors and awkward flow. It does not work for us at all.
Here's our top priorities:
- Increasing storage overall. We literally have no closets, no mudroom, no "dumping" station for kids stuff. There is a side door that is near the kitchen that enters into the stair well (the stove wall is also the stairway wall - ie, it can't move) that we use, we have a front door, and then the current "back" door into the awkward 3-door back porch. We'd really REALLY like more storage for coats, shoes, our vaccuum, cleaning supplies, etc. We don't have tons, but enough to want more storage.
- More cooking/prep space. We are foodies and cook from scratch often. We hardly go out to eat. In general, the kitchen matters to us a lot. We often have 2 of us cooking/preparing, and our current layout leaves us bumping into each other in the corner a lot. Countertop appliances for us are a toaster oven, and all my husband's coffe crap (would LOVE a coffee station because I hate how much room it takes up - he has a grinder & espresso machine & electric kettle). We are pretty sure we want to do a 36" stove, but you can convince us otherwise. We cook far more than we bake, if that helps to know.
- A better pantry situation. Our current pantry is an 18" wide cave. I feel like I have no idea what's back there. We have random appliances on our back porch, and other food stored in our basement because of lack of space. We would LOVE a better/bigger pantry so we can have everyhting IN our kitchen. Things I'd put in the pantry beyond dry food: instant pot, crockpot, bread machine, food sealer, rice cooker (we use all of these regularly). Possibly a stand mixer & food processor. I don't want an appliance garage I'm fairly sure.
- Island If it works, I'd love an island. I think for how we function with 4 of us (my husband, 5 year old and 8 year old) it would get used a lot, and would be nice for the extra storage.
- Half bathroom We need a half bath for when we have guests and entertain. Our second floor has a full bath, and master has full bath. We don't need a shower on the 1st floor and i'm not sure why the previous owners did that. It never gets used.
- Brigther and lots of windows We currently have no west facing windows and our kitchen feels like a dungeon. We want LIGHT. So our hope is to have most of our windows south/west, which means we'll have better views of our yard too.
- We do not want to tear down the current wall between the dining room and kitchen - it is a firm no-go from my husband, he wants to keep it.
Alright, now that you know a little more, here's two potential options we've come up with and we'd like input/feedback OR additional ideas we haven't thought of! Be gentle - this is my first go at this. I've read the NKBA guidelines and there's at least 36" around the idland and in passages. More would be nice.
Option 1: Island, Window/Sink
Pros: I love that there's a window over the sink overlooking our backyard. Lots of storage
Prep/Cook area is close to clean up area but not totally overlapping (ie, someone can wash dishes while someone else cooks)
Broom closet by the bathroom
Storage/closet area across as a pseudo "mudroom" option (close to side door that we use often)
Cons: Sink is far from the fridge
PS - no idea how to work a walk in pantry into that corner, so I'm all ears on that, but i think it's doable. We probably can't get rid of the little "jag" in the wall because of a radon mitigation system.
Option 2: Island Sink
Pros: Sink is closer to fridge
Bigger island
Cons: Less overall storage/cabinets than first option
I'm worried I won't like an island sink because it will feel crowded with the stove/sink backing up to each other and then dishes all over the island.
Looking forward to questions and suggestions. Thank you so much!
Comments (19)
emilyam819
2 years agoRelated Discussions
First draft of our plan - please critique
Comments (9)You'd have to flip the powder room with whatever that is behind it, too, so the entrance to the powder room is off the garage hallway, next to the entrance to the basement stairs. Then incorporate whatever that is in that hallway now (I can't read it, maybe a closet?) into the mulit-space that is now laundry, desk, pantry, and (closet)? Or, you could re-locate the powder room to the back notch in the great room, where the entrance to the basement stairs is currently, then leave alone your garage hall closet. Now you can use what was powder room real estate to re-coup your pantry space. Also, critical problem: you have no front closet inside front entry. Take a notch out of that laundry room to make a front closet off your entry hallway. If you want to re-coup your launrdy room/desk space, then bump out the notch in front of the now powder room to make the house flat across the front there instead of notched. This should approximately get you back your space you lost from the staircase coming into that room. This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Sat, Jul 19, 14 at 13:12...See MorePlease step into my new kitchen layout - feedback please!
Comments (25)Peace, I don't have much time this a.m. (Saturday is our busy day, and I don't have any rendering software at home--to keep the job and home a bit separate.) but I have to say, that's a much busier roofline than your line drawing would lead me to suspect! And, it's surprising that the gables run N-S rather than E-W. That's why advice from an experienced contractor on the scene is so much better than an anonymous internet person! But, having suggested that you think out of the box, my first suggestion to you would be to try to live within the current plan without any expansion. That's always the cheapest, and it's the best investment for resale since additions won't "pay you back" unless you plan on living there for 10 years or longer. The chimney and the stairs really eliminate much of the potential openness between the family room and the living room. But, if you eliminate that wall all the way to the chimney, and use the sunroom space, I can see turning your current kitchen into a very efficient galley style arrangement that will still be as open as possible to the living room. Keep the sink in the same location (always a LOT cheaper!) or scootch it down towards the family room a bit, and just run that run of cabinets all the way along that new wall between the patio and family room. THe range would go on that wall between the sink and a full sized glass door (single "french" door") between the kitchen and patio. Put a pantry where you show the fridge, and put the fridge on the new "mudroom" wall (and maybe laundry?). That is, make a wall extend east from the stairwell through the porch (right about where the post is in the rear shot, I'd imagine) to create the other wall of the "galley" where you create a "snack zone" with a microwave (and maybe a beverage sink?) for all of those snackers coming in from outside. The new small "mudroom" would give a place for coats and boots and flotsam to drop before it hit the kitchen. You wouldn't have to change any of your footprint, and you'd get a very efficient kitchen that would be as open to the living room as structurally possible, with minimal structural issues to be solved. No, it doesn't give you an island, or seating in a kitchen, but it will literally probably be a minimum of 50K less of a project, which if you plan on moving in less than 5 years, might make these changes be more in the realm of being able to be recouped. Like I said, Saturday is my busy day at the showroom, so I probably won't be able to check back in until Sunday to see your response to my radical rethinking. And, I'm probably making a few assumptions about you that may not be entirely correct, such as this being more of a first or second home for you (I noticed the young kids toys.) rather than a home for a mature family. If this is a home from which you will never move, then the dollar amount "invested" in remodeling is less of an issue, as you will get years of enjoyment out of creating a larger and more functional space to live in. You might post your current home's layout with a request for other input about creating the optimum kitchen from what exists and you'll get a LOT more input from some very talented forumistas with a more specific appeal to a layout challenge....See MoreKitchen Design help - first draft from cabinet company
Comments (15)Several people here have mentioned that if your KD doesn't lay it on the line and let you know why you can't have what you discussed within your budget (or what it would cost to have what you discussed) -- in addition to your budget -- it's not so great. I agree. Mine took my total budget and came up with a sadly uninspirational plan that looked just like my old kitchen -- no creativity, no originality. It was thermofoil shaker style cabinets, 23 total. It included nothing but the cabinets, quartz countertop, and their installation. Any "style" or details in this kitchen now, are the result of my request. All I "requested" were two glass cupboards and some extra shelves but the company charged me 30K. No new appliances, no new flooring or structural changes. It was astounding and I should not have signed until I considered it carefully. Problem is, they charged a $1000 for the plan to be made. They charged another $5000 to "release" the plan so that you could use it with your own cabinets and contractor, so I was kind of stuck. What is the markup? What is the actual cost of each feature in a kitchen like this when you use a middleman? Who knows? Again, I was stuck. Their contractor turned down my job because it was "too small", so I had to hire my own contractor to demo the old kitchen, my own electrician, and plumber. These KDs were angry when I got my own contractor to move a switchplate because of their measurement error. They refused to cover the cost of moving the switch and when I wouldn't give in, they threatened me with small claims court - (but later gave up. )They made other measurement errors involving items that now do not fit in my "custom kitchen". So, at this point, warranty or not, I do not want these so-called "award-winning" morons in my home to fix anything in the future! (I am still awaiting replacement brackets for the wrong size they ordered originally-- over a month later!) I wish I'd read all these entries first but maybe someone else can learn from my experience. I believe I was overcharged and under-serviced... a sad commentary on my own ignorance and perhaps a sad commentary on the regulation of kitchen designers here in Canada!...See MoreFirst draft - please take a look and give feedback
Comments (49)To be honest Sunny, while I could recommend further on specifics, for better or worse, it sounds like we're down to the "where do I put the towel rack?" stage, you already know pretty much what you want and any more "big idea" discussion would be pointless. And that's entirely ok. More often than not when I do these "pen to paper" exercises I do them for the lurkers rather than the OP anyway. And for the lurkers, at least one of my three points above has been addressed, that of house area. For a house with basically 4 bedrooms and the support spaces here, 2100SF is plenty. That number might represent a challenge to achieve but that's what a good residential designer does. The other two points, that of maximizing views and circulation remain largely untouched. Two bedrooms are looking elsewhere (one onto what I think will be a largely unused covered patio) and parts of the circulation paths look like the white squares in a crossword puzzle. In concluding, let me get back to Sunny....I guess in a larger sense what I was trying to illustrate is your house has no soul. Sure it has all the pieces (place for piano CHECK......screened porch.....CHECK.......pantry.....CHECK......place for hutch.....CHECK.......walk in closet.....CHECK....etc.) but add all those pieces up and the sum does not make for an inspiring whole. And inspiring wholes do not cost a dime more to build than uninspiring wholes. Designing a skyscraper, where there's a lobby floor with 50 identical floors above is in many ways an easier task than coming up with a well designed small house. Let me reference some threads you might find helpful before you spend a healthy six figures of your hard earned money in an endeavor with no "do-overs" (and again, I'm keeping lurkers in mind here). Read up on what makes good design. First here's a great list of book suggestions: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3281434/book-suggestions?n=10 Second, here's a bunch of great suggestions from others here on what makes good design: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3285825/what-makes-a-house-have-good-design?n=39 (And Sunny, if you thought some of my comments above might have been a tough read, note #31 in my post here). And third, get someone local of talent to sit down with you for a highly interactive "brainstorming session" on the design of your house. And this doesn't have to be expensive or time consuming. Just look at the idea I drew above.......which took an hour. I do these all the time and call them "design charrettes". And don't think I have a horse in your race as I only do these locally, face to face, and I'm plenty busy with the locals anyway (some I even reference here!). In lieu of doing another big retype here's a coupla threads that explain those: Not my first post here but the photo heavy one further down. In the charrette photo that's me pen in hand with the builder flanked by the owners (and from the photo you can see I'm a piano player too). http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3178541/question-for-architectrunnerguy-or-others?n=24 And a colleague of mine wrote the process up in his blog http://www.lifeofanarchitect.com/design-in-a-day/ And again Sunny, the best of luck with your build....See More
bmorepanic
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoNot perfect by any means, but I would do something more like this. Possibly with a slightly deeper than the shelves depth at counter height on the longer pantry wall, where there would be many outlets and all of my countertop appliances, ready to use. Without have the least idea of the rest of the house, we really can't help much.
Jennifer Weinman
2 years agolast modified: 2 years ago
mama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years agoUsing emily's and bmore's suggestions: I don't like to see the fridge so far into the kitchen, but it would give you a better work triangle. I turned the island and enlarged the pantry. You could have a narow window on each side of the range hood, or keep upper cabinets in those locations. Breakfast/snack area could be as wide, or as narrow as necessary, to provide other needed storage. The bold black square is utility chase(?) on original layout.
Jennifer Weinman thanked mama goose_gw zn6OHJennifer Weinman
2 years agoJennifer Weinman
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoJennifer Weinman
2 years agoSorry for the delay - here's a general layout of the first level of our home - a fairly standard American four-square.
We have a beautiful foyer with a bench along the stairs that is original to the home that's really lovely that we don't want to change, and truthfully, we really do not want to touch much in the current foyer/living/dining room because we'd like to keep as much to the original as we can and preserve the integrity of the home. And not go nuts on budget either.
We've had people suggest sprucing up the foyer and making it more like a transitional bench/locker type of thing, like a mudroom, and while it sounds like a good idea, we generally enter our home through the side door by the stairs (that goes directly to our driveway) or the back entry on the porch, which goes out towards our patio, backyard, and detached garage. Our front foyer entry is used most by guests and visitors, so we basically have a coat tree in the corner, and that does the trick for us.
We've also had people suggest carving out a corner in the foyer and putting a bathroom there, and we don't want to go that route. There's no utilities there and it would ruin the foyer aesthetic.
Hopefully context helps! Dimensions of the stairs/entry/foyer are not exact (or windows in the foyer, dining, living) but all dimensions in kitchen, dining, and exterior back porch are accurate.
Jennifer Weinman
2 years agoJennifer Weinman
2 years agoemilyam819
2 years agoJennifer Weinman
2 years agolast modified: 2 years agoemilyam819
2 years agomama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years agoPantry door could be changed--I doubt it would be in conflict with the open fridge door very often. I was thinking that some of the snacks might be kept in the pantry, so the door opening into the serving alcove would be more convenient, and also, the counter in the alcove would make a good drop zone for loading incoming groceries. But--your style of cooking and storage needs should drive the decision.
Since your husband uses the KA mixer more often than you do, let him cart it from the WI pantry. ;)
Jennifer Weinman
2 years ago@mama goose_gw zn6OH Husband already drags the KA down from the shelf, a food sealer from the back porch, and many things from the basement...he's used to it. Lol! Even having it all in one room will be a HUGE improvement.
I think we're going to skip the beverage fridge for now. I do like the idea and I think it would be a nice extra, but we don't consider it a must-have for us at the moment.
So what do you think of this one @mama goose_gw zn6OH? By the way, THANK you for all your input and perspective. Greatly greatly appreciate it.
I added on about 6 inches to the overall amount of space (I think we can eeeek that out and . be okay - we'll see) to give a little more breathing room, and moved the fridge over so it's nestled in a bit. It's a counterdepth, which is what we're used to. Also gives a tad more counter space for counter-top appliances when we need to plug in the rice cooker or whatever. It does make the pantry entry a bit snug but I think that's okay? Also, love love LOVE the full run of counter by the coffee station. I'd like to put the micrwoave in this area if it works. We generally don't use our us a ton other than reheating meals and occasionally defrosting. We're a fairly tall family, so I don't think undercounter is for us, so probably will do a built in. Now that I'm thinking about it, that means those upper cabinets will have to be deeper so we can house a microwave, right? I think a small sink there does make sense - my husband would want that for making espresso/coffee/etc. I'll see what he thinks, but I like that idea a lot.
Distance from island to front of the fridge is about 4 ft. We can adapt the overall size of the island a bit if needed - I realize it may be a bit wide across.
emilyam819
2 years agoJennifer Weinman
2 years agomama goose_gw zn6OH
2 years agoI agree with emilyam on both aisle issues. Unless you absolutely need a fourth stool, you could make that a drawer base on the corner of the island, opening toward the range or the fridge--depending on which items are stored there. The counter above will be extra landing space from the fridge.
The fridge and sink are farther apart than the NKBA recommended max of 9'--but it's just a step or two, and with the fridge closer and more accessible to the serving area you won't need a second fridge. Since, with the fridge on that corner, there's no convenient spot for light switches at the entry to the kitchen, you need to plan ahead--maybe on the wall from the foyer:
mama goose_gw zn6OH