How likely is it that the whole house will have to be rewired?

2 years ago

Our house was built in the 1930s, with part of it added on decades later, not sure of the exact date. The original rooms only have two-prong ungrounded outlets, and a couple of three-prong outlets that I tested with a surge protector (high tech, I know, but it was I had on hand) and verified that they are not grounded as the "grounded" light did not turn on.

The newer added on rooms all have grounded outlets (with one exception that is a two-prong outlet), and within the past 15 years two of the old outlets were grounded (one in the den to make it safe for electronics, and the other in the bathroom when the sprinkler system outside was redone and the exterior outlet on the other side of the bathroom wall was grounded and updated with a GFCI outlet). My surge protector test showed that all the three-prong outlets in the newer rooms are grounded, as well as the two updated grounded outlets. The grounding light is notably dimmer on a few outlets compared to others where it's as bright as the "protected" light, but it's still lighted.

When we had some house work done about 10 years ago, we were informed that most of the wiring in the attic is very old, of the cloth-wrapped variety, and it was suggested that they could become fire hazards and the contractor recommended rewiring the entire house. We couldn't afford that at the time and declined. We only use the grounded outlets for our appliances and electronics, plugged into surge protectors.

Recently we discovered that an important outlet in the kitchen isn't actually grounded like we had assumed for years. Between trying to avoid unnecessary potential Covid exposure and general expenses, we don't really want a bunch of people (or even a couple) crawling around and through the house for days fiddling with wiring and possibly tearing up drywall.

We had been told in the past that it's not worth it to pay an electrician to ground only one or two outlets and also that if the wiring is that old, there could be damage (or something?) when removing the old outlets and that will mean everything will definitely have to be rewired because it would be unsafe to leave it damaged.

How likely is it that trying to replace and ground an old ungrounded outlet from the 1930s will lead to the whole house having to be rewired? Was what the old contractor told us bogus in an attempt to get himself more work or was it a real possibility?

(Also, messing with electrical stuff isn't something either of us want to do ourselves as we know nothing about electrical stuff and do not feel safe trying to DIY, as others have suggested simply trying to ground the problem outlet ourselves. While we know the safest course is to just rewire the whole house to modern standards, we're not financially able to do that right now. That's why we're looking into just grounding one or two more outlets for now, unless that'll end up the same cost as rewiring everything. If it comes to that, we will just not use the ungrounded outlet for appliances anymore.)

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HU-867564120

2 years ago

last modified: 2 years ago

Your question about outlets doesn't matter; your house needs to be rewired. You'd probably be safer running a generator in the back yard and bringing in power with heavy duty extension cords. Also, make sure you have working smoke detectors and sleep lightly.

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modpod
2 years ago
You need to rewire!!!
Ary thanked modpod
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Thank you for all the advice. Its turns out that the electricians were unable to tell which wire went to what. The alternative to rewiring would be upgrading the electrical box and adding new circuits, which we were told would run around $3500-5000. We left a message with the seller (buying it FSBO)asking for the numbers for the electricians they had consulted with. This was more for our information that to try to get anything else from the seller. We had requested the improvements in writing, and we made the mistake of accepting a verbal confirmation that the seller would take care of everything, but they never put it in writing. So, we had really just accepted that we were stuck with any electrical improvements ourselves. Then the seller's son, who is a lawyer, called us and would not give us the name of the electricians, told us that we were already getting a good deal (they came down $5000 on the price after having listed for 8 months) and that we had some nerve asking for anything else. I think he is the one behind waiting until right before closing, on a holiday week, to tell us they weren't fixing it. We still love the house and accepted that we were probably overpaying a little, but it is the only home we found that had everything we wanted and in the neighborhood and school district we like. But it's too bad that this last interaction with the seller before closing had to go this way, it's kind of left a bad feeling over the whole deal. I guess it's another lesson learned.
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You need to come up with a plan. Don't just call an electrician and tell him to re wire the whole house. Find a small electrical contractor who is willing to spend a few hours helping you design a plan. Ask around your friends and neighbors to find a good one by referral. Then figure out where you need or would like new circuits, for more capacity and for grounding. The kitchen and bathrooms will be the best places to add new 20 amp circuits, due to the heavy loads used like microwaves and hair dryers. Plus your fridge really should be grounded. Also, the washer should have a grounded, 20 amp circuit. Grounded circuits are also recommended for your computer & equipment. Most of the old 2 prong receptacles in your living room and in the bedrooms are fine for the lamps, clocks, radios, vacuum cleaner, TV's, etc that they serve. These items all have 2 prong plugs anyway, with the exception of some large TVs and vacuum cleaners that have a carpet cleaning function. It makes no sense to run a grounded circuit to a location where a grounding plug will never be used, if the existing 2 prong system is in good condition. So basically, put new wiring where you need it, and if the old wiring is in good shape, leave it there. If you want to check the condition of any wiring in any house, remove the kitchen light. If the insulation on the wires is still in good shape at the kitchen light, you can bet the rest of the wiring is ok. The wiring above lights gets the most heat over the years, and the kitchen light is the one that gets the most use. It's also the one that gets overlamped the most. If you find the insulation to be crispy, you will need to start checking other places. Most of all, try to find someone to help you tailor a plan.
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As a base line I use 10k a floor. In small homes that is overpriced and in large homes it is underpriced but it gives me a base line to start with when I do a walk through of homes. I am not an electrician and this is ND prices so it may vary in your area but in my area it is close enough to get a handle on it. A little more background on my number. I have worked for handyman over the years as a side job, day job is an engineer, and I have been trying to get into renovating homes so I have been doing a lot of research on pricing. But it is also based on personal experience. I have done a lot of wiring for myself and have helped family out over the years and scaling those jobs up I get to that 10k mark. Another to make note of is that the 10k is for the electrical work. You are looking at another couple thousand to repair all the holes that the electrician punches in the walls unless you are doing the drywall repair. A single wide should be less then that and the wiring should be less as well but it depends on your area of the world. In ND a good electrician is 50 bucks an hour in New York your looking at a 100 or more an hour so start with that number and get quotes. Check their hourly rates and see where you end up. Honestly in a home that size if you tell them to have at it and punch as many holes as needed instead of having them baby step around and try to minimize destruction you should be looking at 40 to 60 hours of labor roughly or less then a week for two electricians to do the job. If you looking for savings find an electrician with an apprentice. You will pay a lot less then and the master electrician accompanying the apprentice is liable for his work so you will still get a good job.
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I am going to take a different point of view. Rather than saving pennies for a complete rewire along with the service panel replacement, just have the new service panel installed and reconnect the existing circuits. If you know what circuits you want/need added because you need grounded circuits, go ahead and add them at the same time. Otherwise, just have the electrician come back and add a couple more when the need arises. When the new service is installed, it might pay to have some or all existing circuits intercepted in a limited number of large junction boxes and new runs make from there to the panel. That was done in one home that I owned when new service installed where most of the cables ran through the attic and down the walls (1950ish slab home with 120/240, 3 ph originally). Part of the reason that worked well was due to consolidation of sub panel wiring to the new service panel, but there were other reasons related to access. At the same time the panel was installed, the electrician pulled a few "spares" from the new panel to those big junction boxes in the attic so it would be a snap to add additional circuits later. (No crawling over to the wall/roof junction under the hip roof, just sitting up on a piece of plywood in a relatively tall part of the attic space.) You probably have what is called "rock lath" walls. That is what I have in my 1949 home and my parents paid extra for (over drywall) in the home that they had built in 1959. There are different versions. The 1949 version has holes to key the first plaster coat. I understand that later they figured out that was not necessary due to the chemistry of the bonding between the plaster and rock lath so that might explain the lack of holes in the 1959 version. Rock lath might be the only reason to do the whole rewire at once, if you can find a reasonably-priced plasterer. We were able to get one, at surprisingly reasonable cost, to do wall and ceiling repairs in our home. Even in major metropolitan areas, I think it is becoming very difficult to find plaster pros. Even if you can find just one, they are tied up in major historic renovations. The trouble with little plaster jobs is that the work requires at least three trips letting the coats dry between visits (as little as a day). If you have a bunch of work to be done it sometimes won't cost you much more than fixing one crack or hole. On the other hand, maybe you can figure out how to do it yourself. Like a lot of finish work, it takes some practice to get a good look and will take a lot longer for a homeowner to do than a practiced pro.
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Dave
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
If my house was full of knob and tube id definitely replace it. i would not trust it.

it would be a good time for a new service upgrade too if you dont have a newer panel.

cheaping out is irrelevant if you end up with an electrical fire.
Ary thanked Dave
Seabornman
2 years ago
No one here can tell you. I've run into older wire that I was able to work with and some that the insulation just crumbled as I tried to move it. Very often it's where the wire gets hotter, like at a fixture or outlet. It's the disturbance that can ruin it: like replacing outlets or lights. Left undisturbed, unless a mouse eats through it, you're probably fine for a while. When you're comfortable with getting tradesmen back in the house, get another electrician in and ask for an opinion.
Ary thanked Seabornman
cat_ky
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
I agree, the house needs rewiring, that wiring is too old to be even be safe. Thats downright scary. You dont know when the addition is done. Are you sure that wiring isnt aluminum, in that newer addition. It could be, depending upon when it was done. It needs to be rewired sooner, rather than later.
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Dave
2 years ago
If it was 50s snake skin wiring or BX cable id be more likely to trust it. i dont recommend trusting knob and tube though. that cloth insilation they used on the individual conductors is failing in places at this age no doubt.
Ary thanked Dave
Ary
Original Author
2 years ago
Thank you all for your replies! @Dave, I googled the cables you talked about and I think some of the updated wiring is BX cable, but when he was in the attic, the contractor specifically mentioned that the wiring was "old" and "cloth-wrapped". Also, it's not a matter of cheaping out--rewiring the whole house is something we can't afford right now. We don't want to gamble with our lives although apparently we've been gambling for years now, and so we were trying to approach it from the point of "what can we do for now that we can afford that is minimally intrusive".

@Seabornman Thank you. I know that for this type of thing what we really need is a quote from an electrician (or several quotes from several electricians) but they're difficult to get hold of and the ones we've spoken to in the past couldn't be bothered with something small like just replacing/grounding a few outlets (makes sense though that it's not worth their time and they need bigger jobs). So the next best thing was to try to research, and then ask the internet to try to get an idea of what to expect. What you said about moving/disturbing a wire and the insulation possibly being damaged (or possibly being fine) sounds like what the one contractor may have mentioned, but neither of us could remember that specific bit about the insulation until you said so. Thanks!
kudzu9
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
What you need are quotes from electricians who will give you an honest assessment based on the condition of the wiring. I have a friend who just had a partial home rewire done and the existing wiring in his 1930s house was in great shape and just needed some grounding added. Replacing a few outlets, if done by a competent electrician, is not going to somehow trigger a total house re-wire. And people who make blanket pronouncements about wiring condition based simply on age rather than actual condition may not be people you should do business with. If such claims are made, have them show you...
Ary thanked kudzu9
kempek01
2 years ago
I would recommend gettting an electrical inspection/quote, as suggested by @kudzu9.

When you have the facts determined, you will be able to make an assessment of your situation.

In the meantime, I would start saving, just in case. While you say that a whole house re-wire is not in the budget, it may need to be. We don't want to read about your house fire!
Ary thanked kempek01

How likely is it that the whole house will have to be rewired?

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