If they cannot make it right, ask for a full refund including $$ to rip it all out and then find someone else to redo the floors.

If, the inspector is certfied. You will need to negotiate based on the report. Your fight is now with the mfg for additional flooring. The store is giving you $1000 credit and a box of wood. That's reasonable to replace 8 boards.

I didn’t buy the floor from the manufacturer. I bought the floor and the installation at the same place. The inspector said there was a milling problem with the wood and that filling the gaps is not an option. That said, I’m looking at a complete fresh start.

It's the manufacturer's fault for bad quality control allowing bad millwork onto sales floor and consumers homes. The store has no idea of the millwork and no control. You would need to use the manufacturer's warranty to get flooring replacement. Negotiate based on the report, inspector says full replacement but from who? Did he/she indicate who was at fault?

Apparently, the owner of the flooring store I paid for the floor and install, had called the manufacturer to try and arrange to bring them into my home to see the floor never returned the call. I didn't see a report from the inspector and he was brought in by the store owner so we don't know anything about him or whether he is certified and qualified to write a report which would be useable in court. When the store owner and the inspector were here, they said there was a milling problem with the shorter floor boards. That being said, they didn't deny my claim that it was the responsibility of the installers to recognize this and filling gaps, as they did, was not the proper thing to do. I definitely have more questions. It's unfortunate and frustrating that it's been difficult reaching the owner.

To G & S Flooring: It is my understanding that, since the floor was purchased from the manufacturer by the store I bought it from, it is the store's issue to deal with the manufacturer. Whoever I paid for the floor and install are the ones responsible to me to provide what I paid for.

Yes i agree, check the store policy and their limitation clause if, they have one.

I’m not sure about a limitation clause. In this case, it might be as null and void as a clause that a dad isn’t required to pay child support. If I paid the store for everything, floor and install, then any problem with the floor is there loss because they bought the floor from the manufacturer…. Either way, they should legally be on the hook for it with me. If I go to a store to buy a dress and the stitching is coming apart, it isn’t my responsibility to go to the manufacturer to give me another dress. The store where I bought it is responsible. Period!

I would suggest checking to see if you can get a flooring guy to come in and have a look. See if they do a free estimate. Be honest , so they don't come over thinking they might score a nice job. Or pay for one of the inspectors so you have your own report on what is wrong.

You may not need to tear the whole floor out so it is premature to think so . Many floors are repaired by removing a few boards.

Get some more professional opinions. Then ask for what is reasonable and fair.

Good luck!

I would be very angry if they offered me $1000 and a box of wood. I would be livid.

Have you sent the letter yet with all the photos, a copy of the receipt for the flooring and install, and verbiage as per what you were advised above? If not, what are you waiting for?

I would tell the flooring store in the letter that they have a choice:

Either send an installer to re-lay the floor as SJ McCarthy has recommended, or tear it out and refund your money, so that you can go find another vendor and installer. Give them a reasonable amount of time, say two weeks. I would mention that you are a heavy user of Nextdoor, Yelp and Facebook, etc. (I hope you chose a flooring store that cares about and protects its online reputation).

Then, if they don't do that, it looks like you've got to get it re-done at your expense and file a lawsuit against them. I hope you are keeping an excellent log of every visit, every phone call, every promise, every statement, etc. You might need that.

I have a running dialogue, including photos through email and text to the owner. I spoke to another installer who saw the floor and, according to him, a complete tear out may be extreme, but suggested I go through the winter to see how it all holds up. The problem is, I have nosing that is unfinished and some botched work near the stairs that looks ugly and I'd have to live with that and hold off on the stair installation for that length of time. It is, of course, true, that if there was an acceptable and viable solution that would maintain the integrity of the floor throughout the years, of course, I would avoid having my floor completely ripped out. Finding an installer to come to look at the floor has proven to be a difficult venture. I want to be open and honest and, if need be, I would love to hire somebody else to fix this issue. I've lost confidence in this store. They are taking way too long and I think they're being unfair and careless with me. They should've been right on top of this a long time ago. Whatever the case may be, they are on the hook for this. That being said, I'm finding it increasingly stressful and my anxiety level is rising the longer it goes on without satisfactory support from the seller. I'm at the point where I don't feel I'm able to cope well with this much longer.

Rhonda, there is absolutely no reason to "wait through the winter". In fact, imho, if you do that, you run the risk that the store goes out of business and then you get a big, fat, nothing.

Time is of the essence.

I just realized that you've had the problem since... June?

You do realize that their "tactics" are working on you, don't you? You are being played. You are being strung along.

Interesting that your other installer didn't think it's a whole tear out, but why in the world should you have to live with a defective floor for another 6 months? What would that possibly accomplish? The only thing I can think that would change in 6 months is the flooring store's possible new assertion that you made the floors worse by something you have done...(inexact humidity control, scratches that weren't in your original complaint, etc.).

I suppose that it's partly my dislike of being played and ripped off. I just wouldn't take it.

I agree.

@HALLETT & Co. , @G & S Floor Service , @Patricia Colwell Consulting , @https://www.houzz.com/user/debbikitchendesign @Debbi Washburn

Reaching out again. I was told by a builder that another viable option would be to sand down the entire floor and there is a filler than can be used at that point and then the floor would be completely refinished and it would be like a brand new floor and the repaired parts would not be noticed. Please, if you know about this at all, can you advise me. I'm getting to a pivotal point here. I'm not happy at all. If those of you out there who provided me with such valuable input are still reading this thread, I am in dire need of some more guidance. Thank you.

I would tag the pros that have been advising you...type @ and then their name if you're on a desktop.

Thank you. I will do that. I appreciate your input!

No. You paid for a factory finished floor. Most engineered floors have one refinish in them, regardless filler song the width of boards always fails (fine in nail holes and small cracks).

Put your foot down. The flooring shop knows this is a tear out on their dime. They are slow walking you to acceptance.

As above ^^^ This is HOGWASH! Pure and simple. Someone is HOPING the *girl in you won't see the mistake the guys have made. You are OWED new WOOD by the manufacturer. They produced a faulty product, you are allowed to get a full replacement of the wood that is poorly milled.

To understand what that means, the INDUSTRY STANDARD is 5% waste = acceptable. Anything above 10% is considered a problem with the milling practices. The inspector says there are milling issues.

The FLOORING COMPANY owes you a newly installed wood floor that is properly inspected for defects before installation. The fact the company ALLOWED some 'dude' to lay a poorly milled floor WITHOUT keeping an eye on said-dude, is THEIR FAULT. They owe you the LABOUR to deal with 'dude's' ineptitude/low pay.

It is a tear out. The *inspector who walked through your home was PAID for by the company. You can *ask for a copy of the report but the rule of thumb is: S/he who pays for it owns it...until it comes to Document Discovery in a court of law...sigh.

If you want to get your own professional to ensure you are well covered - on your OWN side of the fence - you are welcome to do so. In fact, you may have to pull out the big stick that is the NWFA Certified Wood Flooring Inspector.

www.nwfa.org

They come with a price tag...anywhere from $500 - $1000+ depending on how much they have to inspect and document. The NWFA Inspectors are the PLATINUM standard of floor inspectors. They write DETAILED reports that are court ready including dozens of photographs. A single report can be 17 pages long or more.

You are being offered a bait-and-switch type of solution. Do not be fooled. If you feel you are going around in circles then feel free to bring in your own professional inspector (bought and paid for by you) to CHALLENGE the floor company on what they are offering.

Do NOT give them a copy of your report. If they want the report they can PAY YOU for the report (again, s/he who pays full price for the report OWNS IT until a court of law tells you to hand over the results on discovery).

It comes down to the INTEGRITY of the inspector. The NWFA Inspectors win 99% of the time.

Remember: S/he with the most paper work or documentation often WINS. Those 17 page reports come in SUPER HANDY for things like this.

Just sayin'

Stephanie

The price o was given by one inspector was $1800!!’

So, are you telling me that builder is wrong about sanding down the entire floor? Will that not be a viable solution? I’m starting to wonder myself. If the wood is cracked in places, how will sanding and refinishing prevent further cracking?

Which is cheaper, $1800 investment today versus a COMPLETE redo in 3 years that you must finance yourself (you will have run out of labour and material warranty by then)?

And NO...the sand/refinish will not help ANYTHING...except the company. You are being sent on a fool's errand.

Go ahead and ask *nicely for the inspection report....if there is one. If they share, then that's very nice of them. If they don't then it means one of several things:

1. It doesn't exist because the 'inspector' was someone from mid-management who want to 'see' what all the fuss was about. They didn't take photos, they didn't document anything...etc.

2. Whatever was written is SO bad they are afraid to share it with ANYONE...including the owner.

3. They are well within their rights to say "It's our report."

Or a version of all three.

It is your home. You paid for an engineered wood floor to be installed BECAUSE you did NOT want to move out of your house for 2 weeks while a traditional wood floor was installed, sanded, stained, finished and allowed to cure x10 days.

Go ahead and ask them who pays for the cost of a container to sit on your lawn to store your property, and for you and your family to stay in a hotel for 14 days. At that point in time, they will probably capitulate and give you a new floor.

What I have is solid, pre-finished hardwood, not engineered. As for the need for containers, are you saying that ALL my furniture would need to come out? That would require a moving truck, not just a container. What happens, typically, when people get their hardwood refinished?

It depends...on you and your house and your floors and your...everything. If you were quoted $1800 for an NWFA inspector, then I'm guessing you have MORE than 1800sf of flooring. It is often $1/sf for an certified inspector (give or take a bit).

A home with ONE ROOM that has hardwood does NOT need you to rent a container or move out (except where medically necessary). A WHOLE HOME that has every square inch covered in hardwood (minus bathrooms) will require a full move-out. There's no way around it.

Don't go chasing this rabbit down the hole. You are not there yet. And if you push properly, you will NEVER need to go down that rabbit hole. Just use the IDEA to push for the floor you paid for.

Are you sure you purchased SOLID hardwood? Engineered wood floors are considered 'hardwood'. And 'prefinished' just means the finish is applied at the factory. That's it. It is entirely legal to be sold engineered wood floors that are under the category of 'factory finished hardwoods'. Sigh. I know. Annoying as all get out...

Do you have the NAME of the manufacturer and the line/colour you purchased. Do you know the thickness of the floor?

Just for sheeps and giggles, how many square feet did you install and how much - total - was the job. We can figure out many things from there.

It's a definite "NO" to the refinish. They should be able to swap out boards without a issue. It may take several boards per area. You may need a second, third or more bundles, depending on how many spots you need to address. I do not see a need for a full tear out.

Are you sure that can be achieved without looking like a patch job? We would also have to move all furniture and area rug to see if there are any flaws hidden away underneath those areas. It would be so much easier on me to have it fixed. But I think I'd need a continuous guarantee for some time, in case the milling issues cropped up in areas we hadn't picked up on, or the gaps and cracks returned in areas which they hadn't yet shown up in. That is considering my home environment is ideal which it is.

@SJ McCarthy My upstairs floor space minus bathrooms is nowhere near 1800 sq feet as my entire house, excluding basement, of course, is about 2300 sq ft. The hardwood is in four bedroom and a hallway and, of course, the bedroom closets. Between the beds and dressers and all the rest, we would definitely need a huge storage container to hold 2 large beds, a couch, desks, dressers, shelves, filing cabinet etc etc. I'm not sure what you mean about chasing this down a hole. I know that they know us enough to know we're reasonable and will be satisfied if they are reasonable with us. I have been pushing for a complete reinstall but if a professional tradesperson advises us, after looking at the floor, that there is an easier solution, I'd be absolutely thrilled. This person cannot, of course, be recommended by the company we're dealing with, for obvious reasons. The floor is absolutely solid hardwood. I do understand the difference. As for all the details, I'd have to look it up but I don't know that I'd feel comfortable sharing that information publicly at this point.

I think you should absolutely share the details. Why not? Just black out your own name/address. Be sure to let the flooring store know you are going public with your issues because you think the world should know.

If, it is a millwork issue, swapping boards out isn't a issue. Glue it in for a nailless installation.

No need to move out, address one room at a time. Move the furniture to one half of the room, make repairs and then switch sides. Move onto the next room when completed.

If, it is a humidity issue, then you need to know what the humidity was at the delivery time of flooring. Then you need to bring your current humidity within that range and wait to see changes. That can take up to a year of waiting. This time of year humidity is high: 70-80% outdoor humidity. Was delivery time higher than it currently is?

@mrs. s

@mrs. s I would absolutely go public about what has happened with my floor, complete with pictures and warn people against dealing with that business…. And I’m on lots of social media so I would have no problem spreading the word.

@g

@G & S Floor Service I don’t believe it was a humidity issue based on all I know. I believe it’s a combination of a milling issue and installers who either failed to recognize it or just couldn’t be bothered dealing with it. After all, they broke my railing in two places among other shoddy workmanship… so clearly, it seemed they just wanted to work fast and get out.

"But I think I'd need a continuous guarantee for some time, in case the milling issues cropped up in areas we hadn't picked up on, or the gaps and cracks returned in areas which they hadn't yet shown up in."

Ask them about all that before you agree to anything and get it all in writing (of course won't do any good if they go out of business). But I doubt they will be willing to give you an extended warranty on this floor if they know there are issues and they are using a bandaid.

When I said "chasing down a rabbit hole" I meant chasing the idea of REFINISHING with a full move out. Not your wanting a properly functional floor.

You are too early in the negotiations to be looking at the HOW to do it for the fix. First off, you need to nail them down WITH the fix. After they have agreed to do the fix, NOW you start asking about HOW.

If this were a fashion show, you would still have to pick the venue and location, the clothes for the runway, the models, and the make-up crew. Instead, your wondering about lighting and how to show of your collection the best. Lighting is determined by the venue...which you haven't gotten to yet.

That's the type of rabbit hole I'm talking about.

They’ve agreed to doing something and now they’re stringing me along, saying that they are waiting to deal with other the manufacturer… so, to me, it’s looking like a case of them passing the buck and they’ll use that as an excuse until they figure I’ll just disappear. Problem is, I don’t have $12000 coming out of my yingyang. That’s a lot of money…. I won’t or this problem won’t just fade away for them!

Latest up date: After sending them a letter, they are ignoring us completely so we went to the store and, when I saw the installer outside, I talked to him very diplomatically and asked him if he knows what's going on and, once in the store, I finally got a call from the owner who threatened to call the police on me and told me I was harrassing his employees. At that point, we left the store. He called my husband as well and said that he can't believe we're complaining about a railing that is 25 years old. Really? Since when is it okay to destroy somebody's property and not replace it. This requires new wood, assembly and staining. I don't care if it costs $25.00. It's my property and his installer destroyed it. WOW! He then sent me an email stating that his final offer was $1000.00. He also said he'd see me in court. Any guidance you can give me would be so very appreciated. This is going to be a nightmare but I'm a fighter when justice needs to be done. I will have an NWFA inspector look at the floor and write me up a report which I will be presenting in Small Claims Court. I could, however, really use some guidance and reassurance as I go through this process. @HALLETT & Co. , @G & S Floor Service , @Patricia Colwell Consulting

You have received SO MUCH guidance. I feel like if you just read through the thread, you will see.

You have 2 problems:

1. You need to fix your floor. I would do it sooner rather than later. Right after the NWFA inspector sees the floor and issues you a report. Go get some estimates.

2. It would be nice to sue the flooring store (and/or the manufacturer, but I doubt that will go anywhere) to obtain relief. I don't know if it's a small claim where you live; it will depend on how much it costs you to fix the flooring.

The problem is, if I take them to court, they could file for bankruptcy and them I'm SOL. Throwing the idea of NWFA at them didn't make any impression. They are just the type of business who would file for bankruptcy and get away with it. I want to expose them so badly.

This is eligible for Small Claims Court, but they aren't scared....That says a lot.

You have two options- walk or fight. Both will cost you a lot of money. I would probably be at the flooring store every day until he called the police on me at which point I’d call the paper… Have you filed a BBB complaint? They are kinda worthless but he has to reply. You can also contact the manufacturer directly though you aren’t their customer so they may just ignore you

I filed a BBB complaint just now and he already threatened to call the cops on me. I doubt the paper would do anything. Unfortunately this happens all the time. I contacted the manufacturer who seems to want to help, but everybody is out for himself...so this remains to be seen.

Get the report, the inspector will recommend a fix/replace. Which you can then use to negotiate.

I'm guessing they'll just file for bankruptcy and I'll be left with adding expenses and have to pay for new flooring. I think I might be able to win regardless but getting them to pay up would be another situation all together. I'll still do small claims court thought...I've got good pictures and correspondence. I'm afraid of throwing good money into bad...whats the benefit of a good judgement if you cant collect and you're stuck with even more huge bills?

It might be worth the investment to consult a lawyer and have them write a letter on your behalf. They might not be threatened by small claims, but perhaps getting a lawyer involved will light a fire under them. I'm not suggesting hiring a lawyer to sue at this point, only to write the letter.

Yes...that might be sensible. Right now, I'm just feeling really stressed over it all. It's playing on me. I had a contractor come over and say he thought it would be worse than it was and he could live with it. The problem is there's cracks all over...I just found a new one....and I'm sure I haven't seen all the gaps yet. What happens when the furnace comes on? If the floor looks good from far but then, in winter, the gaps expand and the crack get more pronounced....well...we can't just leave it like this. I don't know what to do or think at this point. I'm seriously ready to have a good cry over it.

Gaps in the winter is expected. You need a report to counter-offer. Try and resolve it out of court. You turn it into a civil suit, it will be a long battle.

These cracks are coming fast and furious. What is the INDOOR humidity right now? The reason why I ask, is the winter 'heating season' (in the Northern Hemisphere) is when the house gets REALLY DRY. The dry winter indoor air is going to cause those planks to split even more. Which is why you need to know how humid in the house it is TODAY...and then try to INCREASE the humidity in the winter time so that your floor does not GET WORSE.

Please tell us the humidity level you are controlling the house at.

This is it now

Lovely. Do you know (roughly) what the humidity was when the floor was installed? Do you have the ability to ADD HUMIDITY into your home for the winter time??

The 47% is technically in the SWEET spot for hardwoods....but it could be TOO LOW for the DAY your wood floors were installed. We KNOW the wood was NOT acclimated properly. We know that. Which means the wood could have been a little damp (not to touch but a wood moisture meter would have pick this up if the company had TESTED 10% of the planks prior to installation) before they installed it. And the wood is now SHRINKING fast enough to cause cracks or 'checking' in the finish/wear layer.

Do you have a whole home humidifier for your house for winter heating conditions? Do you have the ability to add a bit more moisture into the house RIGHT NOW? Try bumping this up to 50% (no higher than 55% please).

Let us know your home's ability to CONTROL humidity (remove AND subtract it from the air at the push of a button).

I have a humidifier on my furnace which I can turn off in the summer and on on the winter… I don’t think it’s sophisticated so much that I can control the levels… but I have other hardwood with no problems