Think about garage access. I was trying to get the garage far enough forward that she could back out into the existing drive, the go forward down the drive instead of needing to back out the entire way.

I'd really try to get the living area on the back (south side) of the house. Better light, especially in winter.

Will also need access into the garage.

@PPF. that's a great thought about the garage/driveway.

Excellent point about the light on the south side. Pretty sure she won't budge.

One of her last updates was to swap the guest bath and the guest closet and make the guest bath 1/2 the size it is. Make the blue rectangle the laundry room and garage access.

ETA - the 2nd bedroom is 14X12, can make it 13X12. The bathroom is 6X12...can definitely shave off some of that. Have to look into what kind of space is needed for walk through laundry room.

That sounds like a good idea. Then the main entrance to her house would be through the great room. If that is so, would she also need the kitchen door. Some that space could go for a guest closet. Would she be open for stackable washer and dryer?

@houssaon, good question about the kitchen door. I thought houses had to have a back door, which this essentially would be. I doubt that kitchen door would ever be used and I'm sure she'd rather use it for something else, if it wasn't needed. hmm, I'll have to look into it. She has a nice sized washer and dryer she'll be bringing from her house. I don't think she would be open for a washer and dryer but an apartment sized stackable W/D would be a space saver. I could mention it..where would you put that?

Liane, we renovated a hose nearby for my brother who uses a wheelchair....the negotiations were tricky! And we ultimately had the “we’re not paying for that” snappy comeback. It’s really nice that she is contributing, but I see how it can tie your hands! I like the courtyard concept, but as a gardener, I will tell you that a north facing courtyard is likely to be a dark, dank space. Great if you live in a place where a shady grotto is a good thing, not so great in a cold climate. It could be a great space for kid activities, but how will the grandmother feel about the noise, mess, etc. I’m one of those people who crave natural light and would always choose to be outside....everyplace we have ever lived has had that. My MIL, on the other hand, always has the blinds closed....to this day, even though she has a fantastic ocean view! Anyhow, if you could swap the kitchen and living room, you could have big windows for the living room on the non courtyard side and then the laundry/ mud room could enter the kitchen from the garage, which is handy for groceries....and my other thought is the guest bath....does she really want people who are there for just a cup of tea having to go through a bedroom?

@fissfiss, most of our 3 acres is cleared. We had 20 pine trees removed because we want to put in flowering trees. It was cheaper to take care of it all at once, but wow what a shock to go from shade to none at all! I might have been a bit too zealous to get rid of such messy trees. As a result the hydrangeas I planted have suffered. I think they may thrive in that courtyard but you do have me wondering how much sunlight it will get. We are in the mid Atlantic region so our winters are relatively mild here. You make a great point about the mudroom/kitchen and it being handy for groceries.

Will your zoning not permit two homes on three acres? Could you subdivide the lot?

I do not see a future market for this expensive project. How long might your MIL live here? What are her other options *near* you that would cost the same (or less)?

@chisue, unfortunately, zoning will not permit two separate homes on the lot. They don't want people turning 2nd residences into rental properties or Airbnbs. e can't subdivide 3 acres.

My MIL isn't considering any other options since we've offered to have her live with us. We hear there is a rising trend for multi-gen living. We hope to be living here for at least 25+ years. Then maybe we will move into her home and one of our kids live in the main house. If not, we hope there's a market for this kind of home.

I went back to the other plan and reworked it so the walk-in closet is larger. Actually it might too large. In that case, a foot of so could be taken off the length and the bath can go to one sink. Her bedroom would b 12' 8" by 12' to 13' 6".

The great room is not that narrow. It is over 14'. There is room for a dining table.

By the way, I really like PPF's idea for the garage.

Thank you @houssaon. In the original layout, her bedroom is roughly 17 by 12 and she would like to keep it that size. I showed her this layout (sans your changes - I like the changes you made in the kitchen) and she did not care for it. The main bedroom was too small, she felt the hallway to the bedrooms was a waste of space. I appreciate you taking the time to make changes to the plan but she doesn't want to change anything about the current plan.

Just have to determine the width/depth of the breezeway. I'm sold on the courtyard garage and she is fine with it so we're making that change.

Is an underground tunnel accessible behind bookcases connecting the two units an option?

When I said no narrower than 6' I meant the width, not the length. 4' is too narrow.

There is a reason Mark keeps suggesting an architect work with you. You say you are spending all this time trying to figure it out yet this is not your skillset. It is the skillset of a talented architect who will create something that will work within your parameters.

What I like about the courtyard garage is it breaks up the bank of garages, which were becoming the center of the house. The courtyard will give her a more private space, too. Good luck.

Why does a single elderly woman need a 17' long bedroom? My bedroom is 16' wide and has a King bed, two nightstands, a chair and a dresser and plenty of room to move around. She needs to rethink her wants versus her needs.

@cpartist, I agree with no narrower than 6' wide. How long would you suggest? I'm leaning towards 10'. You ask the very question several of us have asked my MIL. I appreciated the various contractors we 'interviewed' for the job who looked at her plan and asked her things like 'it's just you, why do you need such a big kitchen?' She just has it in her mind that that is what she needs. One of the plans I showed her shaved off 3.5' of the overall house and she wanted to figure out how to get it back. Downsizing from 35 years in a 2600sf house is challenging.

@houssaon, yes! great point about the garages. And thank you for your help. I'm excited to get this ball rolling.

Remind her that one of the reasons she's moving is so that she doesn't have to maintain such a large house and that a smaller residence is easier to maintain. 2BR/2BTh with maybe a larger living area for when the grandkids visit is much better and remind her that a smaller, but more efficient kitchen is better.

I really think working with a talented architect or person of design talent would be a good thing for you because then that person can also work with your MIL to show her how she can have even more than she has now in a smaller footprint. Unless design is your business, why are you trying to do this? I wouldn't think of being my own doctor or lawyer. It's really the same with designing a house.

If one likes to cook, or has a once a year speciality that requires some space....an efficiency kitchen would be a dealbreaker.

a once a year speciality could easily borrow the family kitchen next door. But I agree that if you enjoy cooking, a well set-up (though not necessarily large) kitchen is key.

One doesn't need a large kitchen for it to be well designed to cook your specialties. I managed to do lots of baking in my well designed first kitchen that was on the small side. I didn't even have an island. Just an L shaped perimeter. But it worked.

Here's the proposed plan with the breezeway [sunroom]. Right now the breezeway is 14ft. I like that it creates a nice courtyard but it might be too wide. How is 10ft between houses? And right now it's less than 6ft wide, should we extend it to the garage door (left side). Do we gain much by having a wider space? I think the breezeway will mostly be used to access the backyard and to get into the houses not a hang out space. I like the idea of it being a place to gather but most likely that will happen on a deck out back. Thoughts?

FWIW, my MIL wants a door by the kitchen and not in the living room. She wants wall space in the LR. And she'd rather have her W/D as part of a walk through from the garage to the living room.

Off topic of the breezeway and possibly not the place for it but -- the laundry room on my side of the 'sunroom' was originally a powder room. Do you think that I should get rid of the wall between the LR/Mudroom and make it one long space? I actually would like to move the garage stairs/door to the other side so that the entrance from the garage goes into that LR/Mudroom space. What do you think?

. “2BR/2BTh with maybe a larger living area for when the grandkids visit is much better”

Since the grandkids live in the attached house, is that even necessary?

You are very kind to be doing this for your MIL, but ultimately its your house. You are making concessions for her, she should be willing to do the same. She is ”downsizing”, but how much of her existing home does she actually use? She doesnt need nearly as much sq ft as she thinks she does.

@suedonim75, my husband is the oldest of 4 boys. My MIL is thinking of the other, younger grandchildren, in particular the ones she watches fairly regularly. I agree that she doesn't need as much sq ft as she thinks. It'll all work out fine...that's what I tell myself.

This needs work, but shows the idea of rearranging bedroom 2, bath and laundry.

Doors to each open off the hall, not as shown. Laundry and bath get windows. Bedroom gets east light, not west.

Garage is pushed back, or maybe centered on the front wall

Again, needs work, but you could offset the front part of the house.

@PPF., I like it. I'm not sure my MIL will go for any interior changes but she has said she doesn't care about the garage placement. I do like the garage pushed back but if she doesn't swap the bedroom with the bath/laundry then that room loses a window.

I know earlier in this thread you mentioned going with a darker gable/dormers. What about windows? You used white in your image and I think it looks very nice.

So I dislike the location of the secondary bath in PPF’s version...in your version, why not move the secondary bath door out of the great room and put it off the hall from the garage? In the master bath, there is no way to install a grab bar next to the toilet. I would switch the toilet and vanity.... I would leave that little bit of wall in your laundry. You can put hooks on it. As you have the space, I think a 14 foot long sunroom gives you a nice courtyard....and I would make it wider, because for me, this is where I would spend any free time I had on a winter afternoon. With my feet up and a cup of tea.

As much as I like the recessed garage, I think your most recent plant looks good.

But I don't see a door in the kitchen. If you MIL doesn't want a door in the living room, move the door to the courtyard to the hallway. I would have lots of windows out to the courtyard.

I think you should remove the wall between your mudroom and laundry.

Thanks again for your input. It's always appreciated! I feel like the breezeway would be a nice space but if we're planning to have a screened in porch off the back of our kitchen, will the breezeway ever be used for sitting or gathering? I just can't be sure and that's my dilemma. It'll be a space between two brick walls. It's definite function is to allow easy access to the backyard. Our backyard is 2 acres, and we hope to have a pool one day and a deck/screened in porch. Will this breezeway/sunroom be used for anything other than a walk-through?

@houssaon, my MIL has asked that the door be put back in the kitchen. She doesn't want to lose wall space in the LR to a door. I feel like her house is going to be pretty dark.

So far we're split on that small wall between the mudroom and laundry. I also think we should get rid of it but my husband says it doesn't make much difference, so leave it. So many decisions!

If that wall exists, leave it, that will save a few dollars! I think the breezeway will be used, because it will be an the escape from the noise and chaos of family life in your great room...without having to go to a bedroom.

It's crunch time. We have to make final decisions by mid week. After walking around in an old town district we got a first hand look at spaces between houses and have decided we're going to go with the 14ft distance between houses.

2 more questions -

We have 6 6' sliding glass doors from a sunroom we are converting into a kitchen. Should we use 2 sets on the front and backside of the breezeway?

If we use 4 sets of sliding glass doors, should we go deeper than 5'6". If we go deeper, do we go toward the front of the houses and enclose that garage door in the space? Or should we go back towards the backyard/back of the house. Actually, she's going to have a window in the courtyard, so we should build back, if we decide to go deeper. How big would you make that room (breezeway)? We just cannot decide what to do.

My den, in an old house, was converted from a one car garage. It is 10' by 14'.

I wasn't sure I'd like the look of two sliders on either side. But I am seeing some sliders that make me rethink that. Here is a breezeway with lots of glass.

Wilson Mountain Residence · More Info

Two sets of sliding doors. Each 6 feet wide.

Modern Living Room · More Info

Yes, all the light! I keep going back to our screened porch...at 8’ wide, there is not a lot of room...we have two rocking chairs to look at the view, and a bistro table in the corner...I would want to have a small table and chairs and a comfy chair there....I’m thinking of things like school projects, a place to leave things set up and undisturbed.

Thank you both. How about this? I think it makes sense to have it go towards the back yard, shown in green. It's roughly 10X14

Perfect!

You might want to start a new thread to address the remodel plans for the main house.

Expanding the connector -- always consider the roof.

Should we use 2 sets on the front and backside of the breezeway?

Why? Sliding doors are generally a pain to use. Think about screens, and having to slide the door open and closed. I've replaced many sliders with a hinged door because people were tired of operating them.

What's this space going to be used for besides a passage way from house to house and from front to back?

Make it a screened porch -- maybe even ten or twelve feet wide and at least as long -- instead of a breezeway and y'all can meet in the middle w/o becoming too frequent unwanted guests. Put an electrical outlet in it and a ceiling fan. When one or the other of you want to visit, a radio or the ceiling fan/light turned on can be a subtle signal. If you can put the breezeway between two kitchen windows, y'all can each work in your own kitchens and talk with the other on the porch as you do so. Y'all can each make your own meals but meet at a table in the middle on the porch to share a cup of coffee or even dine together.

Suezbell, it has to be conditioned space, per local reg. PPF, they already own the sliders...big savings.

@PPF. Yeah good point about the roof.

Sliding doors because we have 6 of them. They were put in just before we bought the house. It seems wasteful not to use them. I'm hoping it saves us some money as we are spending quite a bit on this house. Down the road, we can replace them with something nicer.

If we make this a 10 X 14 space, we'll put furniture in it and use it as a sunroom. Is it not very practical?

@suezbell we can't make it a screened in porch as it has to be heated and conditioned. But yes, I like all of your ideas. Her kitchen is on the other side of her house but I like the idea of meeting in the middle for a cup of tea and chat.

A heated "sun room" rather than a screened porch would work the same way as a screened porch -- a place to meet in the middle. Perhaps you could add sliding glass patio doors with screens, at least on the back, leading to a patio.

My concern is the house becoming more lineally drawn out, longer than visually comfortable. Creating a rambling series of forms break up the monotony of an overly ling structure. That is for the designer to decide.

OK. I'm sitting in my 10 by 14 den and I look behind me to imagine a walkway (the main reason for the connection) going for one end to the other. You will end up with little over 6 feet by 14 for chairs and a table. That should be doable.

@houssaon, appreciate you sharing your thoughts on that space. Going to find out what this will cost and go from there. Thanks again for all of your help.

@PPF., You mentioned that because of the newest courtyard layout that my MIL house could be vinyl because it looks like a separate structure. I'm considering this idea. Would you eliminate brick altogether or would you have brick fronts, vinyl everywhere else? Thoughts on this appreciated from anyone.

hallway breezeway, roughly 4X8.

I grew up in a house with a breezeway /connected 1-bedroom apartment, and several of my relatives have breezeways on their houses.

NONE of them are this small. All of them are at least 10' wide and serve as living spaces as well as connectors.

She wanted a 3 bedroom, 1700sf home originally. She's building a 2 bedroom, just shy of 1200sf. She's downsizing from a 2600sf house down to 1200sf. It's not easy.

Is this about problems downsizing? Given that she's a single person, and she has access to your house as well ... I don't see why she'd need that much space.

However, I saw my grandmother downsize from a large house to a small one (successfully) ... but when she downsized again from that small house to a large room + kitchenette/table area + huge bathroom + huge closet (at her son's house), she was not so successful. She wasn't willing to give up certain pieces of furniture, and she crammed it so full that it was not pleasant.

Now I'm seeing my mom /stepfather downsize from a 3- bedroom to a 1-bedroom, and they're still very much in the awkward stage. My mom claims she LOVES the smaller space because she can clean it so fast, and it's enough ... but they "aren't there yet".

I was trying to get the garage far enough forward that she could back out into the existing drive, the go forward down the drive

I like the location of her 1-car garage BECAUSE it makes so much sense for her to be able to share your existing driveway.

And you could do something special with that courtyard. The lighting will make things difficult, but it'd be a nice spot for a patio with an herb garden.

I thought houses had to have a back door

I don't think a house has to specifically have a "back door", but -- even if it's not a requirement -- every house should have at least two exits for fire safety. Since I assume she is not young, I'd recommend one door in her bedroom. Again, fire safety.

an apartment sized stackable W/D would be a space saver.

For a single person, this makes sense. She can always use your larger, family sized machines for the few times she needs to wash a large comforter.

We hear there is a rising trend for multi-gen living. We hope to be living here for at least 25+ years. Then maybe we will move into her home and one of our kids live in the main house. If not, we hope there's a market for this kind of home.

Like I said, I grew up in a house with an attached breezeway leading to a 1-bedroom apartment. Over the years it's been used for SO MANY THINGS: an elderly relative lived in the space, when we were teens we kids spread out into that space, it was a business, it was rented, and now my mom's living in the apartment.

It's a tremendously flexible option, and I am sure it'll be sell-able in the future.

Small considerations: be sure you have separate utilities and a separate entrance. I think you're on that.

I went back to the other plan and reworked it so the walk-in closet is larger.

I'd put a lot of emphasis on the closet /storage overall. She's going to want to bring in a lifetime of memories. The cheapest way to get the storage she needs might be to extend the garage a little.

In the original layout, her bedroom is roughly 17 by 12 and she would like to keep it that size.

In all seriousness, WHY does she need a bedroom this large? What size bed is a single woman going to use? Will she have furniture other than the bed in the bedroom?

'it's just you, why do you need such a big kitchen?' She just has it in her mind that that is what she needs.

Three ideas:

- Visit some houses and let her SEE some smaller, functional kitchen.

- Have her go through her kitchen items and inventory what she plans to bring to the new house. Realistically, does she need ALL the things she has now?

- Remind her that she can use your larger kitchen for big family meals. Remind her that if she goes with a smaller kitchen, she can borrow your big chili pot, etc. just by walking across the breezeway.

2BR/2BTh with maybe a larger living area for when the grandkids visit is much better and remind her that a smaller, but more efficient kitchen is better.

Realistically -- I'm using that word a lot, ya know? -- how often does she have visitors? how often does she have overnight visitors?

I'm suspicious that a Jack & Jill bath could work well here ... a full bath connected to her bathroom, and a half bath on the other side of it for visitors. Remind her that she's looking for easier maintenance. Bathrooms are pretty high maintenance rooms.

Your children probably won't spend the night with her ... why would they when they can be with her, then walk across the breezeway to return home and sleep in their own beds? If other grandchildren are likely to be her visitors, could she do with a bunk room instead of a full-fledged bedroom?

Do you have space for guests in your larger house? If so, that cuts down on the need for guest space in her house.

Ideas from Google:

This house is really simple ... being a simple rectangle, it'd be less expensive to build, and the layout looks practical. With a few tweaks, especially to the garage, it could work.

Okay, I was going to look for more, but I'm tired now.

@Mrs Pete, thank you for sharing your thoughts. You bring up a lot of great points. Unfortunately we are at the point of no return or at least without adding major expenses to an already expensive project.

Our breezeway will be 14 X 6. I think we could have had a really great space if we had gone bigger but the change orders have just been so costly we had to cut back on some things.

I don't know what to tell you. My mother in law has a very strong opinion about what she believes she needs and wants. I'm not crazy about some of her layout decisions but in the end it's her house and she's paying for it. She has kept the overall size within our parameters. There has been a bit of give and take on both sides.

@PPF. Sadly, they haven't made much progress. Between permits, septic plans, Covid related issues, snow and rain things have been slow going. Framing is supposed to start early next week.

I'm sorry if I missed this in the thread, but make sure there are banisters and such for her in that breezeway.

Making some progress