If it was my tree, I would take ALL that older mix out from that area. I would just rinse it out with a good stream of water.

Trees go through more of a shock being mailed, or placed in a different location more than re potting.

I don't understand the last question about stirring up the mix, sorry.

Hi Mike. Sorry I wasn’t too clear with that. It made sense in my head haha.

I mean, after I clear away the rest of the old nursery mix, can I re-use the 5-1-1 mix that the tree is currently in? The tree has been planted in it for 2 weeks. By “stir”, I was just referring to me giving the 5-1-1 a good mix/stir/shakeup before re-potting with it. I’m assuming it will be ok to re-use the 5-1-1 mix as long as there’s no rot but I‘m not 100%.

Thanks again for the help.

-Jeff

Edit: ok I understand now that you recommended just pouring water over it until it rinses out the bottom. I’ll try that first before re-potting. Thanks for the tip!

Hello everyone. Here’s an update.

I couldnt wash out the clump of nursery soil so I removed the tree from the planter. I was then able to wash away the vast majority of the old nursery soil and get a better look at the roots. I think they look healthy but I’m not sure (see pic below). Only a few tiny roots came off during the soil removal.

I potted it back in to the same planter with prepared/soaked 5-1-1. I haven’t seen any bugs but it’s probably because I do periodic neem oil spraying.

My water knowledge still concerns me. I don’t really know what wet/moist/dry all actually look and feel like. I keep flip-flopping in my mind on if I should increase or decrease my water frequency.

I’m still going to water once every other day. If no improvement after a few weeks, should I increase or decrease my watering frequency? I don’t want to make things worse by going the wrong way. I feel like, based on the info in this thread, increasing the watering will be best. If the 5-1-1 is prepared right, the extra water won’t accumulate. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

The leaves are still slowly turning yellow and falling off. I haven’t seen a new leaf after more than a month of owning it. Another blossom has begun to grow. I’ll continue to remove the flowers after they set fruit. Hopefully water is my only unknown now. Thanks for reading and I appreciate any info you have to offer.

-Jeff

The roots look ok from what I can see. As for watering, the best way to learn what wet/dry/moist look like is simply to use the skewer trick. Stick a wooden skewer or a chopstick deep down into the soil, if it slides through easily and nothing sticks, that's what dry looks like. If a little soil sticks and the stick is slightly damp, that's damp. If a lot sticks and the stick is visibly wet, that's wet. From there you can figure out what that looks like for your planter. And always check more than one place in your planter. As for the growth, citrus grow slowly, it can be weeks before you see any results from anything you do, so water the tree when it needs it and let it be. Give it some time. Growing anything, but especially citrus is very much a game of patience. Don't worry your tree to death.

Thanks Bonsai. I’ve been using the probe of a moisture meter in the way you described for checking the moisture. I also did this right after watering just to get an idea of wet. A lot of dirt stuck to the probe and I could feel water on it. I water again when there’s just a few particles on the probe and it feels damp/cool. I’ll just keep up with the watering now and try to chill :p

Thanks again for all your help. I’ll post an update in a few weeks.

-Jeff

Update: Possibly new growth

What I though was more going to be more stress blossoms appears to be a new branch with new leaves and no blossoms.

1 - This is a an original stem that came with the tree. There’s a tiny clumping of new leaves at the tip. I don’t know if this will be stress blossoms or new growth.

2 - This is the new stem. It grew to this size in about 2 weeks since emerging. It only has leaves and no buds.

The last time one of those new stems showed up, it just had a clumping of blossoms and no leaves. I removed it after the blossoms bloomed.

Is this possibly the first sign of new leaf growth? It grew so fast which makes me suspicious that it’s just going to be another stem of stress blossoms. But theres no buds and just leaves. Should I allow this new stem to become a branch or should it be removed/pruned off at some point?

Thanks.

-Jeff

That is definitely a new branch, (in my experience the buds are usually either/or, so if it has leaves then you can usually be pretty confident in that). Go ahead and leave it be. In order for the tree to recover it needs to be given some time just to grow. Don't worry if it seems to grow quickly, new branches can show up and grow fairly fast on most citrus.

That’s great. I figured something was different when those nice new leaves showed up. It‘s amazing how quickly it grows and reacts despite being a tree.

Thanks for all of your help. I’ve directly applied a lot of the knowledge in this thread (and forum) and it seems to be working. Ensuring the 5-1-1 is mixed properly, increasing water frequency, and pulling back my grow lights are basically the only things I’ve done differently since my first post. I’ll keep updating this when there’s major changes.

Thanks again,

-Jeff

No with 100% certainty.

75F Air Temp too high indoors

Leaf Temp critical

Leaf temp + Humidity = critical VPD

Lack of LUX/Lumens = critical

Radiant heat from CFL = critical

Lack of breeze to cool leaves indoors = critical

https://www.gardenista.com/posts/5-secrets-tips-grow-indoor-lemon-tree/

There is 10% humidity at 110 F in phoenix and citrus trees grow fine sometimes in still air. Why is it different for indoors citrus.

Steve

Nature takes care of high temperature and low humidity in a number of ways.

In your example, outdoor cooling mechanisms are in high gear with higher root temperature, higher photosynthesis, higher transpiration, better root structure and correct root stock, better available nutrients. As the seasons change these variables work in a symbiotic relationship.

Indoors the cooling mechanisms are always in lowest gear, low root temperature, low photosynthesis, low transpiration, and low air flow. When you have radiant heat from the sun and radiant heat from a lamp and zero airflow it is like a CPU without a fan.

Indoors you have fixed root temperature which is equal to your thermostat setting. That never happens in nature. The root temperature rises and lowers in nature according to the season.

WLD is triggered indoors when you have a wide difference in root and canopy temperature. New growers don't realize how hot the leaves can get in a window or under a grow light.

Citrus have no fun when you replace the Sun with 5-1-1. Citrus bask in the suns glory but cold feet hot head is another story. WLD triggered by cold pot and hot canopy.

Temperature at the closest leaf to the lights is 79F. Temperature in the soil at the roots is 71F. I used a thermapen thermometer left in place until the reading stabilized.

-Jeff

If this is going to grow indoors a Meyer lemon tree needs 6-10 hours of full sun per day. Sunshine is considered 10,000 lumen per square foot one foot off the canopy. For grow ops if you can get 5000 lumen per square foot from artificial light that is pretty good. With a 3 foot canopy you would need 45,000 lumens. You need to either rotate the plant frequently or move the light on a rail.

An Agrobrite FLC26D 26-Watt Spiral Compact Fluorescent Grow Light Bulb (130W equivalent CFL), 6400K is 1300 Lumens. I doubt you could put it 12" from the canopy in the summer.

If you are planning on taking outside for 8-10 months you can abuse it and get away with less light during the off season.

The people on this forum who are really successful have some aces up their sleeves such as a humid basement, humid sun-room, humid garage, older home that is not well insulated and won't trap moisture, or mild winters and short overwintering, or cooler temperatures in the 60's over the winter.

In a Condo or apartment I would recommend a 5' grow tent with a Gavita 1700e. Citrus are like cannabis in their light requirements.

Take a piece of paper and fold it in half. Take stock of all your variables on one side of the page. Go back to the greenhouse and look at their sunlight, greenhouse temperature, humidity, how they water, what soil they use and record it on the other half. Look for variables that are starkly different and than go about trying to solve those problems.

When LED lamps first came out they had all the LED chips tight together. That produced a tremendous amount of heat. The new style like the Gavita 1700e produces the same LUMEN as older designs but the advantage is you can get closer to the canopy without heat generation. In a living room they are too bright and really belong in a tent.

Citrus trees grow just fine in low humidity areas like arizona and southern california.

Hi Lemon Lime Orange. I appreciate your knowledge but the way you write your posts is incredibly negative and demeaning. Why are you telling me how to record information before going to a greenhouse? I actually prefer using my phone to store notes and other info before going somewhere where I need to recall it.

Your use of equals signs and lack of any kind of politeness in all of your posts scares me away from reading anything you write. You’re very intimidating.

A simple “good luck, you’re gonna need it” would have saved you a lot of the time and effort used creating those posts.

-Jeff

I think you’ve assumed that my expectations are high for this tree. I really just want it to survive and look pretty. You seem annoyed at my persistence to grow a lemon tree so I thought I’d make it clear that I don’t care what the outcome is.

-Jeff

Thank you Lemon Lime for answering my questions honestly. Your welcome Jeff.

Ken very good point for outdoor growers. For indoor growers you can’t grow in a house or condo with low humidity. The mechanical heating and air conditioning systems wreak havoc and are too stressful on the plant. 50% is considered the bare minimum with 60% indoors being ideal.

Yes citrus prefers higher humidity. Can you successfully grow them indoors at lower humidity? Yes you absolutely can.

Ken, I would have to agree. It all depends on the tree and your, specific, microclimate. Keep it simple to start and change little things at a time. Glean from others as much as possible, while also recognizing that there are many factors that can be different for your environment vs theirs. Be willing to try new stuff, but experiment with what works for your location. And not everyone that is successful growing indoors is living in an older home or has a humid sunroom or basement. Some of us are just growing ours in a convenient, large, window. Do you need to pay attention? Yeah. But once you learn your environment and what works for you, don't sweat it.

Ken I love breaking the rules. From a practical perspective that doesn't work out well for novices growing citrus. From the Gardenista article, the number one point Mario Vega, a nursery specialist at the Conservatory of Flowers in San Francisco’s Golden Gate attributes to failure indoors is low humidity.

From my experience growing sweet oranges indoors 12 months /indoors/outdoors, and in a hybrid environment without sun (see my idea book) that below 40% would have a devastating effect on new shoots and leaves triggering WLD. 50% was the bare minimum and 60% was ideal.

Vapor pressure deficit charts drop off at 35-40%. The lower the humidity indoors the lower the temperature required to provide a stress free vegetative VPD. Not many people willing to turn thermostat down to 59% to provide a 1.11 VPD at 35%.

https://www.gardenista.com/posts/5-secrets-tips-grow-indoor-lemon-tree/

Citrus is grown commercially in 30 countries worldwide. They grow in tropics, low tropics, middle tropics, high tropics, subtropics, and dry subtropical and humid subtropical. The common theme that makes each area successful is sunlight. If you want to create a 10% RH dry subtropical oasis in your living room, have fun, forget the 5-1-1 and bring the SUN!

https://irrec.ifas.ufl.edu/flcitrus/pdfs/short_course_and_workshop/citrus_flowering_97/Davies-Overview_of_Climatic_Effects.pdf

Bonsai you have made my point perfectly. You have a convenient large window which obviously has good sunlight and your citrus are happy and content. You have an edge and it works.

Very interesting read. Thank you and Lemon Lime, glad you are doing well)

Fantastic point made. Could not of worded it better)

"The people on this forum who are really successful have some aces up their sleeves such as a humid basement, humid sun-room, humid garage, older home that is not well insulated and won't trap moisture, or mild winters and short overwintering, or cooler temperatures in the 60's over the winter.{

What works well for new growers is keeping it simple. My trees stay indoors from early October until early may and for most of that time the humidity is less than 30%. They do just fine. You want to go grow tents and all but that isn't necessary. I have a grow tent with a 600 watt hps in it with climate and humidity control and automatic irrigation. This isn't necessary for citrus nor does the novice grower have these setups or the will/want to have one. They are expensive and overkill. With a small (75-100 watt) led near a east south or west window one can successfully grow and fruit indoors following the kiss mantra. I had a meyer lemon that stayed on a east facing bay window all year that gave me fruit with no supplemental light. Did it give me a ton of fruit like it would outdoors? No, but I would get 5-10 lemons a year from a tree that got nothing from me except some fertilizer every few weeks.

“Thank you Lemon Lime for answering my questions honestly. Your welcome Jeff.”

All that I asked was if my setup will work and if anyone has any suggestions. I didn’t ask how to transform my living room in to the best habitat for growing a lemon tree. I didn’t ask for detailed scientific explantations with fancy data tables. Instead of assuming what my intentions are, you could have told me that my setup will not work and made some brief suggestions. Instead, you flipped out and gave me a lecture of why it wont work, suggested completely impractical ideas (grow tents) for the average houseplant grower, and then you made fun of my intelligence for telling me how to record information.

Your sarcastic reply speaks truly of you as a person.

I can’t believe someone who cares so deeply about this hobby would behave so negatively around someone who is new to it and even go as far as making fun of their intelligence. Do you not want new people to try this?

I will never be returning to this forum because of your behaviour. I would rather see this tree die than take abuse from you or anyone.

To everyone who truly helped me, thank you. Unfortunately, this LLO person is not nice and has scared me away. Asking a question about a lemon tree, no matter the level of ignorance, should never deserve a reply like his. I hope that his knowledge outweighs the risk of him deterring people from returning to this forum (and maybe the entire hobby). Good-bye.

-Jeff

Hello! This is my first post here so I'm going to skip all the drama and jump right into the good stuff. Let me know if I'd be better off starting a new thread.

I just received a lovely 3-foot dwarf Meyer lemon tree and I'm growing indoors in what I would say are very similar conditions to Jeff here. I'm currently using an Aerogarden LED grow bulb to provide light, from what I'm seeing in this thread I may want to consider upgrading that setup. Happy to do so if necessary, I don't love the red/blue light my bulb provides but I would prefer to keep it as an E26 bulb if possible since I have an adjustable height lamp that works nicely and looks great over the tree. I don't have a ton of natural light hitting it currently, thinking about moving it although it would require rearranging some furniture because I do have nice large windows and it seems silly not to take advantage.

For humidity, I'm planning to use an oversized drip tray and let the runoff water sit and evaporate which I hope will be enough. I'm not too concerned for the warmer months but I do see the humidity drop to around 10% in the winter. I have a grow tent, but half the reason I got this tree was as a decorative houseplant (plus, if I put the tree in the tent where would I grow my weed?).

A couple questions:

1. I haven't repotted yet since I got it, it's in a #5 container (hope that means something, not sure if those are standard sizes). Is there any specific size I should go for? I'm thinking 5-gallon at the moment.

2. Would this Bonsai Jack gritty mix be a good growing medium? Please say yes, because I've already purchased it. (Just kidding! Be honest, I can repurpose it haha). I thought the guaranteed low pH would be helpful but it does differ slightly from Al's ideal mix.

I appreciate everyone's help, and I'm looking forward to some lemons!

Alex, probably a good idea to start a new thread, but a few questions: what direction do your windows face/how big are they? Depending on how big they are, a grow bulb can provide enough light. For repotting, don't go too much bigger than the rootball, one size up from what you have should be plenty, and help to prevent moisture problems. Keep it simple, don't overcomplicate. Start with light, soil, water, then add to that as problems arise. Just pay attention to the leaves and the plant. The tree will tell you if there is a problem.

Windows face south, standard size casement windows but 3 in a row so it's a pretty large area. I've only been here a year and just started growing things a couple months ago, in the summer though I rarely had overhead lights on during the day because there was so much coming through the windows. That seems to bode well for me if I just move the plant to be in front of them. Will probably also upgrade the bulb anyways because the colored LED is already driving me insane.

Thanks for the repotting tips! I'm not sure how to judge the size of the root ball without pulling it up, which I won't be ready to do until I have the new pot and soil. Looking at it now the current pot seems to be 5 gallons already. I might stick with the same size container anyways unless that's not big enough. Would you recommend pruning the roots?

Jeff you did not like my answer because it did not fit your preconceived ideas. In your words, "I used the vast wealth of knowledge here to try and give this plant the best chance for survival...I would be so happy if someone could please tell me if I’m on the right track. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I’m hoping my current setup will work so that my little lemon tree can bounce back and do it‘s thing. Thanks so much. -Jeff

Citrus is like a lock and the grower is like a key. There are millions of different ways to grow citrus in millions of different grow situations. If your your key opens some tumblers but not others the plant will die. You have to be Sherlock Holmes and figure out which variables are not working. The only thing that you had 100% certainty of was working was the pot and soil. That plant had grown in that pot successfully for 2 years. Something other than soil and water was a contributing factor. That is why I suggested you get a paper and compare your growing environment to the growers environment so you could discover the issue.

Jeff I really wish you and your plant well.

Lemon Lime, it feels like you came on a bit strong and very technical without explaining much. I love getting technical, but you used a lot of acronyms and jargon that I had to look up and I still don't completely follow everything you said. I appreciate you sharing knowledge and you've given me a lot to research, but it seems like you were declaring his plant doomed when everyone else was offering practical advice, and I've never seen anyone else claim that indoor grows in normal conditions are impossible with 100% certainty.

I've already started reading through the sources you linked and I'm sure I'll learn something useful, but I also hope you're wrong about the odds for both of our plants doing well. Curious to hear some other opinions, from what I can tell most of the people in this thread do have their plants outdoors at least part of the year. Has anyone here had success with fully indoor grows?

Hi Mike. Nice to hear from you. I realized tonight that growing Citrus indoors is the only hobby I can think of that does not have expert books published. All the books are geared towards growing citrus outdoors or a combination of outdoors and overwintering. Even those books skim over the technical nuances of growing indoors.

I was planning on buying Ladybugs for the greenhouse in November. The Canadian supplier has not had any since the summer. She claimed it was global warming. I talked a USA supplier and she said there is no supply issue but a labor issue. Tried insecticidal soap, EndAll, and neem oil had no effect. The hose did a better job. What do you like to use? I saw a recipe on Four Winds Growers for Peppermint Castile Soap that I might try next. I have moved my plants outside and are bringing them in at night.

Alex, I grow a Nagami kumquat, fukushu kumquat, rangpur lime (seed grown), and makrut lime in a 7ft tall by 15ft wide west/southwest window, exclusively indoors. I also grow figs, avocados (no fruit yet), orchids, ferns, a begonia, and a sageretia theezans up in an east facing window without supplemental light. None of my plants ever go outside. My citrus and all my other plants in their window grew with 100% natural light until I added a grow light this last winter to supplement on darker days. I definitely don't claim to be an expert, I'm still learning a lot, but I have had some success with my plants. I wouldn't root prune right now, just move it to the next size up if the roots are a little tight. If they're not, keep the same size for awhile.

Lemon lime, I have also noticed the dearth of information on growing 100% indoors. Information is often skirted, or people can be openly hostile to the idea. It's definitely not impossible though. Just takes a lot of tweaking, experimentation, and learning your environment. There's a lot of information out there that may or may not apply to any one person's growing situation. Taking notes of what works and doesn't can be a huge help. And I definitely have many.

That's awesome bonsai! Encouraging news for sure. It seems like light is very important and my grow bulb alone is probably not enough, so I'll definitely be moving it in front of the window tomorrow or Friday. I was planning on root pruning since I found this post explaining the benefits and one below it in that thread with more details (yes I may have spent the last couple days reading what felt like everything @tapla (mid-Michigan, USDA z5b-6a) has written on the internet hahaha). I guess it would be smart to look at the roots when I repot and decide whether or not they need it. I'll order a 5- and 7-gallon pot, use whichever one makes sense and save the other for my snake plant.

Hi Alex, your better to start your own thread. Every situation is unique. Your situation is night and day different than Jeff. Your window faces South, and his faces North/West. You can mix artificial and natural light but the sum total of light has to meet the threshold requirements of Citrus. Citrus have similar light requirements to cannabis. Some people only have enough light to bloom. To bring fruit to maturity grown indoors it takes a lot of light.

Yeah, I wasn't initially going to have the tree in the window which made us more similar but I'm getting the impression it would be a much better idea to move it. Would love to hear more comments on root pruning, other than that I think I'm all set and happy to start a new thread when I inevitably come up with more questions!

Hi Bonsai, nice to meet someone else who likes to grow indoors.

https://www.fourwindsgrowers.com/pages/growing-dwarf-citrus

"If your growing space receives at least 5-6 hours of full direct sun per day, supplementing with full spectrum bulbs or fluorescent plant lights can help trees perform well. IF, however, the space provides less than 5 hours per day of direct, full sun, more sophisticated grow light systems may be necessary."

Alex, depending on the age of your tree I would say to wait on pruning the roots unless you intend to grow your tree as a bonsai. If you want to keep it in a smaller pot, then you definitely want to root prune, but if you are just starting with citrus and haven't root pruned anything else before, I would recommend holding off. Maybe get a faster growing and more forgiving tree and practice on that first.

Lemon lime, I think when it comes to light it isn't so much direct sun as bright light. If a room is brightly lit (and by that I mean a grow light really doesn't look like it is on, and turning on your lights doesn't do anything) for most of the day, you should be ok. If it's bright but needs a little light, you may want to add a grow light or two. It's a bit tough to speak in lumens to a lot of people, because they just don't think that way, and most people don't have the equipment to measure it anyway. If your room isn't that bright, you may be able to make a window work (I've grown indoor tropicals for a long time in various locations, both dry and humid environments. I will admit that some environments=slow growth, but all the plants still did grow, so it is an expectation thing). But if each person learns their environment and adjusts their expectations, they'll be fine.

Alright, fair enough on the pruning. The tree is between 2-3 years old I think. I'll probably go to the larger pot for now then.

I've been curious for a while about how much light the various spots around my apartment get, are those $30-$40 light meters on Amazon any good?

Let there be light! Here she is basking in the sun (it's pretty cloudy today). Starting to look droopy and the blossoms are drying up, one just fell off. Gave it some water, hoping the light will help and the repotting when I get my soil on Saturday.

If you bring a citrus tree indoors and its metabolism rate is faster than it can regenerate through photosynthesis - it will consume itself. When you have poor light and a warm room the metabolism is fast and the regeneration from photosynthesis is slow. The heat the tree receives both in the roots and in the canopy speeds up the metabolic rate. Citrus has a great attitude when grown in the right latitude. You can grow indoors 12 months of the year as long as the plant is set up to have enough photosynthesis to manage normal metabolism.

So lowering the temperature would help? It's around 75 usually. I have a small floor fan that might help, give it a "breeze."

Temp is just one variable. I would spend the money on an infrared thermometer. Keep an eye on the temperature of the leaves. The fan is a double edged sword. Of course it cools the leaves but too much fan will also dry them out if the air is dry. I use a dyson fan because it is more like natural wind.

Looks like a nice Window Alex but it is a lot easier to bring the citrus outside in the spring and summer. When you bring it outside it becomes stronger and has a better chance of overwintering successfully.

An article you might get some ideas from.

https://www.gardena.com/int/garden-life/garden-magazine/everything-you-have-always-wanted-to-know-about-citrus-trees-and-overwintering-them/

Ok great, I actually have one of those Dyson bladeless fans in my bedroom, I'll swap it out and try that on the tree. Unfortunately I don't have any outdoor space with this apartment. I realize it's not ideal, but I'm going to do the best I can with what I have.

New thread for my grow: Indoor dwarf Meyer lemon tree grow (houzz.com)

Thanks a ton for the help Lemon Lime and bonsai, I appreciate it!

P.S. did I do something wrong with the tags on that post? I put it under Citrus and Container Gardening but I don't see it in the feeds for either.

Your very welcome Alex. Houzz keeps moving the citrus forum.

So how goes since this thread was started? Are your trees doing well under that set up?