soil test results--help!

3 years ago

hi all, Hoping someone can chime in if they have experience with soil test results such as @roseseek or @strawchicago z5. We do not have a local extension office that provides soil tests so I went to a local farm supply. They werent the most helpful about what the results mean or the operational aspects of how to fix it. Test results came A&L Western Agricultural Labs, so I might call them. However, coming here for a wealth of knowledge you all have.

I am in south Orange County, CA (10a hot and dry) where the water is alkaline from what I have recently researched. We get very little rainfall to wash out the gardens soil. I replaced and/or amended the naturally clay soil with organics. I was only able to put out a little mulch on top last year owing to the nuttiness of the year (homeschooling two kids).

I tested the soil in some new beds I created 1.5 years ago. The roses in those beds are not thriving. Or in the case of Florentina, became a green monster with no flowers.

My ph is 7.6! I have low (8) nitrogen, very high phosphorus (110), high potassium (588), high magnesium (550), high zinc (7), low manganese (2), low calcium (2081) and copper is high (1.9). The gentleman at the supply said: add nitrogen, gypsum, and elemental sulfur. I did use rose tone last year a few times as well as weak fish emulsion.

However, I believe watering and the ph of our water plays into this as well. I was watering twice a day in the summer, less quantity, due to the high heat, which I now believe added to the problem.

My questions are: What nitrogen only supplement would you all recommend? I see Espoma produces urea but I'm worried about overdoing it. How often /how many gallons should I water keeping in mind the alkalinity issue? How about a product for elemental sulfur? And does anyone understand Percent Cation Saturation enough to explain it to me?? thanks for any advice, rosey people!

Featured Answer

roseseek

3 years ago

Wow, you really do have an issue on your hands. Yes, the fact there hasn't been enough rain to dissolve all of the salt build-up and flush it further down into the soil has really created problems. Our increasingly salty water definitely doesn't help. I haven't the experience with how much urea or other sources of nitrogen to suggest nor how many gallons of water they would require, not knowing the drainage. I do believe a call to the Lab for suggestions would be your safest bet. Good luck!

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Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley
3 years ago
@Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b) had this done. I know she's very busy now, but maybe she'll have a suggestion.
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I have found an opportunity here to learn about soil chemistry and plants requirements. The concept of "buffer" as mentioned by idaho-gardner is very interesting as applied to soil chemistry. I got into serious gardening within past three seasons. Started from GA red clay, with lots of redish rocks, stones. I got into internet and learned about ways to amend that red clay. I did all that very hard work, without buying any topsoil or compost from anywhere. I was told that I have to pay attention to soil PH.(potential Hydrogen), which I was familiar with from college chemistry. Then I checked the soil; PH was around 5.4. I was told (internet , info from PH meter manufacturers) That it was too low unless I wanted to grow just potatoes. WHAT TO DO?? "lime"! so I kept adding lime , but then I was told that it will take a year or so for that to work and bring that PH up. I also kep pouring lots of wood ash from my fireplace.... but despit all that low PH I managed to grow decent tomatoes, onions, squash, cucumbers, and all kinds of herbs. Now, the soil PH in my garden is probably around 6.2. I did fine with PH=5.4 so I sould not worry about it. Some fellow gardener here in GW warned me "be careful, not to add too much wood ash it can raise the PH..". I was just getting scared right there (LOL). But right now, WHO CARESS about PH! forget all about it and unlearn what you have learned. I am so relaxed now, not worrying abou this and that thechnical and scientific jargons. The nature is smarter than all of us. Cyrus
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A few ideas -- Sounds like you're in need of a good amount of organic matter -- whether manures or worm compost & plant matter. If opposed to manures you might consider using it initially to build the bulk you need. I used to be opposed to horse manure and bringing anything in from outside just wanting to be sustainable with our own backyard flocks & rabbits providing manures; however, once I gave the partially composted horse manure + bedding a chance the results were amazing! No weed problem that I had feared, flies, or much smell at all. Plus if it is pre-loaded with red worms your soil gets a big jump start. There are good & bad manure sources, so be careful. I have found a two in my area that I can contact on a regular basis for 2x a year pick up where they feed less grain than others (just oats, beet pulp, or sunflower seeds) & no hay only alfalfa. There are some that I will no longer use because of rocks, garbage in pile, nearby weeds to pile, difficult access, uncovered manure, etc. I learned to ask some basic questions: pile covered, what feed is given, weed free hay (warning: persistent herbicide in manure), what bedding is used, etc. Rabbit manure might be easiest to handle in buckets & readily available from a hobby breeder in your area. There are lots of rabbit raisers everywhere, but not too visible. I've seen it on Craigslist for $5 a feed bag or 5 gal bucket, but I'm sure you could get cheaper. That seems steep to me for the quantity a food garden would need. non-manure source ideas: -used coffee grounds are free at St*rbucks. -hay, straw, alfalfa sweepings at a local feed store (ours has a dumpster you can pull it back out of - wear a mask & gloves) -spoiled hay from a horse farm as they can't feed it to horses (cows or goats could) -cafeteria produce, bread, rice or noodle waste - public school, restaurant, grocery store, food bank, etc. *Food banks often have spoiled produce on a regular basis & would love for someone to come take it away. -grass clippings from herbicide free lawns - be careful with this one! browns: -hay/straw from above (alfalfa seems like a green to me really heating up that pile) -leaves (public park, shopping center landscaped areas etc. It's not all picked up in our area. Have a pair of gloves, bucket or bag in your car to pick up when you see it.) -shredded paper - offices, schools, household paper waste (napkins, paper towels, tissues, toilet paper rolls, cereal boxes, etc.) Cardboard boxes shred okay in electric paper shredders & are easy to get from grocery, hardware, & warehouse stores. Pull off plastic tapes & remove staples 1st. Build bigger, hotter compost, turn often = ready to use in 2 months. Sheet mulch with organic matter now right on top of the lime. If soil is not saturated or so packed that you can't dig in the lime you may need to just spread lime + sheet mulch & dig in later. Cover sheet mulch with burlap bags to keep moist & shade out light for optimal worms. Look for a coffee roaster in your area to request the bags for free. Other covering ideas: freecycle or thrift store sheets, towels, old clothes if natural fibers. Photo from 2010 of what a few years of improving the soil will do. This is between gravel driveway & forest layered up on top of pit run for improved drainage & loose soil. It's quite a menagerie in just one part of the garden - burlap bags on ground as weed control & covering in middle of strawberry bed with compost materials underneath. A wonderful harvest that year from strawberries fed & watered from that pit of compost. The green buckets in the back weren't successful. The plan I had didn't include drainage holes & late blight devastated the tomatoes. The inground plantings of anything always surpasses my containers probably due to better drainage & nutrients. I just don't fuss with the eclectic pots of culinary herbs & they make for easy harvesting. I've cut back to only a few of those pots now & using larger metal colanders instead of clay pots that dry out too much. The colorful clutter includes chairs, small table, blanket, insulated red cup of tea, compost containers, leftover graduation balloon to scare deer away... I hope that helps you, Corrine
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How much organic matter is in your soil? What is the humus level? How workable is your soil? Does it ball up well when squeezed but fall apart easily when poked? What does that soil smell like? How much animal (earthworms and such) life is in that soil? How well does that soil drain? What you do not need according to that soil test, if it can be believed, is lime or wood ash. The soil pH needs to be lowered into the more optimal 6.2 to 6.8 range where most all plants grow most bestest. The test for N can be disregarded since that is highly dependant on soil temperature which influences bacterial activity which makes N available. Contact your local office of your University of Minnesota USDA Cooperative Extension Service about having a good, reliable soil test done and while waiting for those ressults do these simple soil tests, providing your soil is even workable now, mine isn't yet. 1) Structure. From that soil sample put enough of the rest to make a 4 inch level in a clear 1 quart jar, with a tight fitting lid. Fill that jar with water and replace the lid, tightly. Shake the jar vigorously and then let it stand for 24 hours. Your soil will settle out according to soil particle size and weight. A good loam will have about 1-3/4 inch (about 45%) of sand on the bottom. about 1 inch (about 25%) of silt next, about 1 inch (25%) of clay above that, and about 1/4 inch (about 5%) of organic matter on the top. 2) Drainage. Dig a hole 1 foot square and 1 foot deep and fill that with water. After that water drains away refill the hole with more water and time how long it takes that to drain away. Anything less than 2 hours and your soil drains too quickly and needs more organic matter to slow that drainage down. Anything over 6 hours and the soil drains too slowly and needs lots of organic matter to speed it up. 3) Tilth. Take a handful of your slightly damp soil and squeeze it tightly. When the pressure is released the soil should hold together in that clump, but when poked with a finger that clump should fall apart. 4) Smell. What does your soil smell like? A pleasant, rich earthy odor? Putrid, offensive, repugnant odor? The more organic matter in your soil the more active the soil bacteria will be and the nicer you soil will smell. 5) Life. How many earthworms per shovel full were there? 5 or more indicates a pretty healthy soil. Fewer than 5, according to the Natural Resources Conservation Service, indicates a soil that is not healthy. Here is a link that might be useful: UMN CES
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Continue with Morph's regimen. That has nothing to do with poa. He is giving you recommendations to improve the soil. He is not addressing nitrogen but you have included some applications in your schedule. I assume you have tttf?Or is it KBG? Either way, most nitrogen should be done in the fall. You have three apps scheduled that have nitrogen (Milo in April, starter Memorial Day, high N Labor Day). Tttf needs 2-3 lb./K of nitrogen; KBG 3-5 lb/K yearly. If you have tttf, I would suggest a slower release nitrogen fertilizer for the Labor Day app (Milo would be fine if you want to use that again) and a quick release, high nitrogen fertilizer (like urea) in late fall after the grass has stopped growing but before the ground freezes. That's 4 apps. If you have KBG, do another nitrogen app in early October in addition to the Labor Day and late fall apps. Next year skip early spring apps and do a light app of nitrogen (Milo would be fine) in late spring. Most fertilizer for this area for cool season grass should go in the fall. Are you sure it's poa? Any grass can have seedheads.
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Plumeria Girl (Florida ,9b)
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
Katthyc, your numbers are very high. How reputable is this company ? All I know if something is high, do not add anything.

I was reading below the tables about prior to planting. It recommends you to spread below requirements Gypsum 10, Elemental Sulfur 20 and Nitrogen 20. Nothing else.

Seems you salt is very high and having drainage problems. Your Micronutrients are very high too.

I would just follow what they recommend or call them up. I wish I can be more help.

Good luck, my rosy friend !
Dingo2001 - Z5 Chicagoland
3 years ago
Join the website “around the yard”. They will read soil tests and make recommendations for you. let them know this is for flower beds, not the lawn. They guy used to do it here on the Lawn forum has moved over there. Really knowledgeable, helped me a ton!
roseseek
3 years ago
@kathyc_z10 if it helps, a friend in Florida who works as a County Extension Agent posted this list of soil test sites state by state. Perhaps you might also find information from some of them. https://gardeningproductsreview.com/state-by-state-list-soil-testing-labs-cooperative-extension-offices/
ValRose PNW Wa 8a
3 years ago
You should not worry about the amount of water you are applying even though you have high ph water. The added sulfur will lower your ph and counteract the effect of the ph of your water.

Urea is ok, just divide the total amount needed into smaller applications. I use elemental sulfur, not a named product, for temporary lowering of ph.

If the depth of your soil sample included both amended and native soil, your soil may be in better shape than the soil test indicated.

You said that these beds were not thriving. It might be better to analyze the roses' foliage and growth. Do the leaves show minor deficiencies? Are they undersized or misshaped. If you post photos of the plants and foliage, there are experts on this forum that can tell you what you need to do.
Rosefolly
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
Salts build up in California soils in years of low rainfall, which we certainly have had. In particular I skip my spring application of composted manure unless we've had a good winter rainfall (definitely skipping it this year).

Many California soils are low in nitrogen and need yearly applications.

I agree that consulting the lab that did the testing might be a good idea. And tell them what you are growing. Many people are growing lawns or vegetables. The requirements might be a bit different.
jerijen
3 years ago
I know some have questioned the numbers you got. I, OTOH, believe them. My water runs around 8.5

I also don't want to be discouraging, but I have found over many years that because my WATER is so very alkaline, my soil will constantly revert, no matter WHAT I put in there. But you can use soil sulfur. I've had Ironite recommended, but of course, it is very slow acting.

I have also found over the years that no rose with a high % of Multiflora in its background is going to be very happy in my conditions. I can grow Poly-Teas, for instance, but regular Polyanthas are going to suffer. Purple roses, for the most part, don't do well, because they go back to Multiflora.

I have seen White . . . WHITE leaves on 'Reine des Violettes' and 'Excellenz von Schubert'. When the problem is that severe, mending it becomes a full-time job. Now, I just don't plant roses here that won't handle my conditions.
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
3 years ago
Do you see chlorosis on your leaves? Davis has some good information about soil levels needed for roses. They also mention electrical conductivity above table 1. http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7465.html
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
3 years ago
Also more explanation about interpretation of soil tests. I found this after looking for explanation for my soil test results. http://iv.ucdavis.edu/files/24409.pdf
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
3 years ago
last modified: 3 years ago
Plus a nice summary of the soil types in California.

https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/Environment/info/aspen/atp2-3/EIR/Section%20C/C5-Geology-Soils.pdf
Stephanie, 9b inland SoCal
3 years ago
This discussion is about P and K deficiency, which you don’t have, but I found it helpful in deciphering the language used in the test results. http://calag.ucanr.edu/Archive/?article=ca.2016a0007
strawchicago z5
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Stephanie: I looked through your links, fantastic info. Thank you. The first link was where I got rose tissue analysis (done by U of CA at Davis) back in 2014. Rose-tissue analysis: more nitrogen than potassium, 1/2 calcium, 1/10 phosphorus and 1/10 magnesium.

Kathyc_z10: See below link for info. on alkaline-soil & fertilizer. Below link shows my discussion with BirdsLoveRoses .. she has pH 9 to 10 soil with high salt. She has pH 9 tap-water like I do. If you have any questions, I'm ready to answer here too. My soil test back in 2011 was pH 7.7 with exceedingly high magnesium & low manganese & low calcium. I did gypsum like they recommended, but if I have to do it all over again, I would focus on organic matter (alfalfa and cracked corn) to UP the nitrogen & moisture, rather than gypsum which DRIED OUT MY CLAY (I have rock hard alkaline clay).

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6111804/soil-ph-soil-type-moisture-fertilizer-for-certain-roses#26816464

Below is a thread which I wrote on gypsum is best FOR THE BOTTOM of planting hole only. I also included a map of different soils across USA:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5971487/calling-strawchicago-re-clay-alkaline-soil-amendments-fertilizers
BirdsLoveRosesSoCalCoast
2 years ago
I think adding organic amendments to the soil is crucial for soil health, but I agree with Jeri - it's a constant battle to get the soil pH down near neutral and keep it there while always adding alkaline tap water.

You could try adding Alfalfa Pellets to the soil. Strawchicago says they add acid as they break down. Also a source of Nitrogen for you. I haven't tried it yet, but it's on my list...

Stephanie - thanks for all the links

soil test results--help!

roseseek

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Vaporvac Z6-OhioRiverValley

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