Thank you, arbutus, for the additional information. Sounds promising, though I'll have to research Dark Night more if I decide to put it in my Midwestern garden. I'm keeping it on my reserve list for now. About Peter Mayle: Maryl, in my garden, Peter Mayle is not a "space-eater." In fact, it has been a rather narrow, vertical/upright bush and I've wished it would be a bit fuller on the sides. Maybe its narrowness is due to where I planted it--on the west side of my neighbor's garage (along the property line) stuffed between two bigger and more aggressive roses that maybe force Peter to grow vertically in order to get high enough to get his share of sunshine? Don't know. Pat, Peter Mayle is a fairly good bloomer for a rose that produces the biggest, fattest blooms in the garden. Like Valencia, which produces the second biggest blooms in my garden, Peter is a bit slow on the rebloom. I think it is because it takes longer for big/fat blooming roses to make those big/fat blooms! On the other hand, nearly all my roses slow down considerably--even shut down-- when we get into hot, hot, hot August--Peter Mayle included. But when Peter (or Valencia) actually bloom, they sure can be show-stoppers, so I forgive them. LOL Kate

I'm sorry sweet, I appreciate the article but you took the wrong information from it and came to incorrect conclusions. Sealer 101.. The pigmentation itself is not fading it is being dispersed over greater area. The carrier (alkyd/oil base) takes a long time to come to final cure therefore it continues to "spread" the pigmentation deeper and deeper into the wood fibers. This happens not just with TWP but with any oil based product. How deep it dives is dependant upon the type of driers and resins used. This is what makes TWP a good quality product. It has the ability to carry deep into the wood and condition it with mositurizing oil. This is why I tout oil based products over water borne products. There is, of course, a point of diminishing return. The wood will only absorb so much oil and so much pigment before the product starts "layering". Applied as directed by the manufacturer the finish remains as an enhancement to the wood. It will expand and contract in harmony with the wood and allow mositure evaporation. When you pile on coats, every subsequent coat becomes not a part of the wood but a top coating. There may be some bonding of the resins that intially creates what seems like a desirable finish (John describes it as a sheen) but this is merely a top finish that is now susceptible to craking, flaking and peeling. Again, TWP by its very nature has parrafins that never really cure 100% so John has been lucky thus far and the finish has remained semi-pliable. At some point, this chemistry is going to break down. Not if...when. Perhaps it won't happens if the product is applied on regular maintenance schedule but waiting just a bit too long and it will start peeling. Once it does, the finish is ruined. Understanding stauration points, Sweet, you can easily understand how layering pigmentation will cause darkening. Take a crayon and shade in a box on a piece of paper. The first layer of wax will bond to the paper and the color will be as labeled. Go over that color again and the color will darken a bit. Go over that same box again and again and what happens? Not only is the color significantly darker, the top coats of wax are flaking and if you pick up the paper and shake it or cause stress to it, some of that wax will come right off. Understanding the science of why the Hyatt Method works and why it is destined for failure is what scares me. Now as nature erodes some of that oil and the top bond is broken (evidenced by readily apparent and dramatic color shift) the wood after a full year will be ready to accept more oil. This is when R-A-D comes in. It helps to make the wood readily accept the finish by actually breaking the bond of the former finish and removing some of it. Have you ever heard of "the moisture test" which is basically placing five or six drops of water onto a finish and seeing if it beads? Any oil/based sealer manufacturer will tell you, if the water beads at the surface, you cannot apply another coat of sealer. You either have to perform stripping or wait longer fro Mother Nature to do her thing. Hope this helps clarify things. One final note.. You have to understand the millions of dolars thrown at R&D by these sealer manufacturers yet stil they come out with crap that does not hold up for more than 12-18 months at best. If the technique to superior longevity was as simple as piling on layers with no increasing odds for premature finish failure, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would suggest it?

OK I had a lot of answers typed up and lost the post, so you can research them if you like, but here are the ones that are not true: Our eyes are always the same size from birth (not true, our eyes do grow) A shark is the only fish that can blink with both eyes (sharks don't have eyelids) Almonds are a member of the peach family (no, almonds and peaches are both members of the rose family) Babies are born without kneecaps (not true, babies do have kneecaps but they don't show up on xrays very well because they are not bony but are made from a cartlidge material) February 1865 is the only month in recorded history not to have a full moon (not true, there were 4 in the past century, the most recent being 1999) In the last 4,000 years, no new animals have been domesticated (yes there have been, the ostrich, turkey and hamster) Leonardo Da Vinci invented the scissors (nope, they were invented in Egypt over 1500 years ago) Peanuts are one of the ingredients of dynamite (not really, peanut oil is used to make glycerol and that is an ingredient in nitroglycerine) Winston Churchill was born in a ladies' room during a dance (no, he was born at home)

My rose list (badly) needs updating. At a guess I would say that my single biggest group are the Gallicas, possibly followed by Teas. I haven't got my ground in good enough shape for the latter to do well, but the once-blooming old roses of European origin are the best suited to our conditions, and of those the Gallicas are the largest class. So I have a lot of once-blooming old roses (Gallicas, Damasks, Albas, Centifolias, Mosses), which I love and which do well here, a lot of Teas and also Chinas, which I'm working to make the environment friendlier for, mainly lightening the soil. Quite a few ramblers, Multiflora, Wichuriana, species and hybrids, Noisettes, Lady Banks roses. A few 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner'-type old Polyanthas, a few Foetidas, and I wish I had more of both. Rugosas don't like it here, and I have my doubts about Spinosissimas; few HTs, no Floribundas, not because I reject them out of hand, but because I think conditions here aren't ready for them. Oh, I forgot: Bourbons, Hybrid Perpetuals, Hybrid Damasks. I have a few of the first, more of the second, and I like the HDs. These are heterogenous groups I don't know that much about, but there are some I like and I'm trying to figure out which ones. I have many of the Pemberton Hybrid Musks, which I love but don't grow well, and a few shrub roses, a group I don't know much about and haven't seen much of that was inspiring. Oh: practically no Austins. They're beautiful roses but it's too rough here for them.