I'm sorry sweet, I appreciate the article but you took the wrong information from it and came to incorrect conclusions. Sealer 101..

The pigmentation itself is not fading it is being dispersed over greater area. The carrier (alkyd/oil base) takes a long time to come to final cure therefore it continues to "spread" the pigmentation deeper and deeper into the wood fibers. This happens not just with TWP but with any oil based product. How deep it dives is dependant upon the type of driers and resins used. This is what makes TWP a good quality product. It has the ability to carry deep into the wood and condition it with mositurizing oil. This is why I tout oil based products over water borne products.

There is, of course, a point of diminishing return. The wood will only absorb so much oil and so much pigment before the product starts "layering". Applied as directed by the manufacturer the finish remains as an enhancement to the wood. It will expand and contract in harmony with the wood and allow mositure evaporation. When you pile on coats, every subsequent coat becomes not a part of the wood but a top coating. There may be some bonding of the resins that intially creates what seems like a desirable finish (John describes it as a sheen) but this is merely a top finish that is now susceptible to craking, flaking and peeling. Again, TWP by its very nature has parrafins that never really cure 100% so John has been lucky thus far and the finish has remained semi-pliable. At some point, this chemistry is going to break down. Not if...when. Perhaps it won't happens if the product is applied on regular maintenance schedule but waiting just a bit too long and it will start peeling. Once it does, the finish is ruined.

Understanding stauration points, Sweet, you can easily understand how layering pigmentation will cause darkening. Take a crayon and shade in a box on a piece of paper. The first layer of wax will bond to the paper and the color will be as labeled. Go over that color again and the color will darken a bit. Go over that same box again and again and what happens? Not only is the color significantly darker, the top coats of wax are flaking and if you pick up the paper and shake it or cause stress to it, some of that wax will come right off.

Understanding the science of why the Hyatt Method works and why it is destined for failure is what scares me. Now as nature erodes some of that oil and the top bond is broken (evidenced by readily apparent and dramatic color shift) the wood after a full year will be ready to accept more oil. This is when R-A-D comes in. It helps to make the wood readily accept the finish by actually breaking the bond of the former finish and removing some of it. Have you ever heard of "the moisture test" which is basically placing five or six drops of water onto a finish and seeing if it beads? Any oil/based sealer manufacturer will tell you, if the water beads at the surface, you cannot apply another coat of sealer. You either have to perform stripping or wait longer fro Mother Nature to do her thing.

Hope this helps clarify things. One final note.. You have to understand the millions of dolars thrown at R&D by these sealer manufacturers yet stil they come out with crap that does not hold up for more than 12-18 months at best. If the technique to superior longevity was as simple as piling on layers with no increasing odds for premature finish failure, wouldn't it stand to reason that they would suggest it?

Ken,

I dont think my post was too clear when I said "that might also explain"....I agree that the lightening is most likely from the dispersion of the pigment over the next few days to weeks....however, the long term exposire to UV rays from the dun will indeed oxidize the pigments and thus lighten them (like aluminum siding or paint on a house)...thus layering like John Hyatt is doing places the darker pigment over the lightened oxidized pigment and may indeed not darken the wood over time....it may make it more opaque as you suggest but not necissarily darken it more than the original pigment tint....although I'm a chemist I do not claim to fully understand all the nuances of deck pigmentation and staining and take more faith in real world experiences (both yours and John's)...there's alot of chemistry that works on paper and differs in real life....there are soooo many varibles and chemical entities here that it is a real challenge to find solutions I agree....I was just suprised to read this article and find suppirt for some of the effects I was seeing (such as dry time and Amteco claims that second coats can be applied the following year by just washing the deck and applying....like J hyatt mentioned he does).....in the end everything is trial and error...like I said I put TWP on in full sun 90+ degrees and saw no flash drying or tackiness...I had shiny oily spots that lasted days without getting tacky...why? I'm not sure....but its good for all of us to share experiences and try and get best practices....in the end I KNOW your RAD system worked as claimed...even better in my mind....and John's claim of putting second coat would have worked in my case as far as the first coat never getting tacky....what the final outcome would have been??? not sure...but the test piece is looking good....time and experiments will tell...I still gotta give you a ring or sit and have a beer with ya to talk "chemistry"...I'm gonna be in Philly Monday morning August 7th...you working or free???

This reminds me of a great story, this old German got his suitcase stolen, so his wife says" O you must be so unhappy and so Mad!! The guy says " O No,I am very happy!! I am not mad at all...I still have the Key!!

Guys,,,I got the suitcase I dont care who has the Key,all the facts and figures can come into play,all the info on both sides of the twp thing can come into print and I think thats a good thing but to tell ya the honest truth I dont care!! I got the on the ground,we built it and it works, come on out and stand on it, I do this every day Suitcase!!
I dont really think about why it works,I just know it works, after all the years I have on my own deck out back I cant see it failing now,in fact as I was just thinking and looking at it, the deck itself looks about the same as it did when I took that picture on my site with Rex the Cat,its a little faded,its not bad really just looks a little dry after 6 years or so its probley due another coat but if I was the normal Wallet I would put it off for next year and not even think about it. But Noooooooo now I have to take pictures, take the chemina with the green lizard climbing around it off,as well as the kamato,the table and chairs,the planter box, hose it off,let it dry,and put another coat on,and take some more pictures and impose them on my site so all can see. But after all that>>>>>>>>>> no one is going to belive it!!! Now why twp dosent suggest this????? OMG!! its a cover up!! heeeeeeeeeeee I dont know,I have talked to T H E Man who spent 10 years coming up with the various stages of twp,both kinds, on another site,and the way they put on the supper high grade stuff under shop conditions is pretty much the way I put on the 116 if you subtract the smart stuff like the Ken knows,and put in its place a dumb Okie with a wild attitude. They do say this is a pro product,that might have something to do with the way they market, hard to say. Being the Bottom Line kinda Guy that I am>>>Building coats with the 116 twp works for me and has been working for a lot of years, and still will work when I get a chance to put another coat on out back. I love ya Ken,but I got the suitecase and you got the Key. J

If John did wet on dry, I think the conclusion would be the layering. But when he goes back over it with a wet on wet..in a reasonable amount of time.. he's just adding more wet oil with wet oil...If the wood is taking it in, it's just more oil and re-dying the damp top and middle fibers to a richer color.
Wet on wet is used in many art applications for different looks. This is why he's saying he has success.
There is a fine line between adding wet oil with wet oil.. and adding wet oil on dry oil.. and forming a crust.. I think John walks within the line by his success with it.
Pressure-pro's is right to caution people to be sure to walk within that line.. If it dries too much and you lay oil on a drying oil or dry oil it will sit on top and form the layer.
So you're both right and debating that fine line of drying time. Since twp takes longer to dry, John's re-application/saturation window is a little longer than other oils that dry in a shorter time.
Just make sure you both pay your lattice bills!

Wet on wet applications are the standard for oil based sealer application. As you mentioned, it is just making sure the wood is saturated but not puddling. John advocates wet on dry applications and that is where my opinion differs greatly.

Ken,

Not trying to stir things up but being the devils advocate...TWP (Ametco) actually advocates the same thing as John as far as rinse with a hose and reapply....read the link below on the www.twp500.com site under the section entitled
"The Best Solution: Penetrating Oil-Based Finishes"

"To date, the best solution to the exterior wood finish dilemma is to use penetrating oil-based finishes that do not form surface films, and hence, do not pose serious lifting or peeling problems when the time to reapply is apparent. The resins (binders) for these systems set-up in the wood pores and do not form continuous films in classical sense. Maintenance then becomes as simple as cleaning the dirt from the surface, allowing the wood to dry and reapplying another coat."

I've read this in several of their technical bulletins and that is why I am hedging on that second coat....but I'll probably wait till next year to put it on....I have some test samples out to weather and some with wet on dry application to see how they fair in my area....time will tell..I do truly believe that it is working for John mon just wary since I'm using the #516 and not #116....its always dicey when they reformulate..

actually if you go to the right on that page and click on "articles and Info" there is a alot of good info there

Here is a link that might be useful: The Best Solution: Penetrating Oil-Based Finishes

No problem, sweet, I want to help clear up any qustions you have. Amteco and I agree 100%.. here is the terminology that clarifies all:

"..when the time to reapply is apparent."

and

"The resins (binders) for these systems set-up in the wood pores and do not form continuous films in classical sense. Maintenance then becomes as simple as cleaning the dirt from the surface, allowing the wood to dry and reapplying another coat"

These are generic statements and true of all oil/alkyd based penetrating sealers not just TWP. The time when to apply is "apparent" is defined by the water test I mentioned above (ie the finish has failed). The problem in the real world is, sealer does not wear evenly, nor does all the wood weather at the same rate. R-A-D evens out the existing finish so that the entire surface is prepared PROPERLY (evenly) so that you do not end up with blotchiness or shiny areas. Cleaning with water also does not kill mold spores. Remember our goal.. proper prep for finish longevity.

Sweet, we can't meet face to face this Monday but we have to speak on the phone. You have to trust me on this, I respect John Hyatt to no end as a master deck builder. I would never refute anything he suggested when it came to structure or technique. Refinishing on the other hand, is my area of expertise. I'm not insinuating that he is fabricating his results.

Via many years of experience working with both interior and exterior wood finishes as well as working with manufacturers of sealant and chemists whom design the chemicals I work with, I have only scratched the surface of proper wood restoration. I probably clean and restore and seal 20 decks to a deck builder's one. I have seen it all.

Remember, they call the builder when the structure is weak or something doesn't seem right, when the finish fails, they call me or one of the 60 or so wood restoration contractors I am in contact with on a steady basis. We all compare notes on products and science.

Here is my advice, Sweet. You want to do the second coat, please do. I am all for real world results. If you come back in three years and say, "Ken my deck still looks fantastic, what do you think of that?" I will bow my head and admit I have been wrong all along. Then the three of us, we'll have that beer. Or, you may call me in four years with your head hanging low saying, "Man, my deck is black, help me get those shiny topcoats off so I can start again. If that happens, we'll still have the beer only you are buying. Have a good weekend, my friend ;-)