Help with total kitchen and major home remodel
Hello,
We are first-time posters here and really appreciate the willingness on this forum to offer advice. We are in the latter stages of developing plans for a major remodel of our home in Southern California and are looking for some help specifically with kitchen layout. We love our architect and what he has come up with, and now we think the plan needs practical input from a kitchen-design standpoint. We love cooking and expect to spend a lot of time in the kitchen. We are a family of four, two working adults and two boys who will be in their teens once we live in this place remodeled. We have two small older dogs as well.
One of the major purposes of our remodel is create openness in our home and to take advantage of the views from our hillside house. The ground floor of house has peek of ocean views to the southwest, and generally has nice open sky/city views from that floor. We have decided after many iterations of the design that we want to move the kitchen to the side of our ground floor that has these best views. There are many code constraints operating on this remodel, so we cannot add any more square footage and any changes to the exterior walls require preserving wall elsewhere on the house, so we're hoping not to make more changes to the exterior than is shown on these drawings.
We are attaching an as-built of the ground floor for context and an architect's hand drawing of the new ground floor plans at 1/8 scale. The terrace seating area is still in flux but this is the general layout we want for the ground floor. The key constraint on the kitchen is: the windows on the west wall and south wall need to be big. There will be no over counter cabinets where the windows are shown. (The tree on the as-builts that would block this view is gone, fwiw.)
We have added labels to the plan for measurements that I thought would be helpful, but since they are sort of cryptic I'll list them here:
Appliances:
fridge 48" / counter depth
range: 48" induction (could change)
Windows:
west wall: 12'
south wall: 8'
Counter lengths:
Fridge to range: 24"
Range to sink: 72"
sink to corner: 60"
south counter: 11'
east counter: 7'
north wall (floor to ceiling cabinets and pantry): 12'
Island:
width: 6'
depth: 4.5'
Aisles (not labeled on plan):
range to island: ~48"
storage to island: ~60"
island to north counter: 60"
island to dining room table: 60"
Here are some of our concerns after reading guidance here and elsewhere about standards of kitchen design and good practice:
(1) Location of fridge deep into kitchen. Access difficult; need to pass through work zone. Distance from cabinets where glasses would be (probably north wall) quite far and requires pass through work zone. Location next to pantry bad for heat discharge from fridge. Also appears to have issues with clearance and impedance with pantry.
(2) Sink/dishwasher: too far from each other? sink too close to range? is it better to have more counter space next to range? Is the prep sink too small? it is drawn as 12" by 12". Is there sufficient prep space on the island? Could rearranging appliances result in a flow that eliminates the need for a prep sink?
(3) Dish storage/food storage: how do we deal with dish/glass storage without a lot of overhead cabinets? How to logically arrange these with respect to dishwasher and sink?
(4) Outdoor kitchen: any observations or concerns with respect to outdoor kitchen layout also very welcome!
If you have read and digested this lengthy message, you have our utmost appreciation. Thank you for any advice you can offer!
Comments (12)
4 years ago
4 years agoThank you, cawaps! I am glad there are others who have heavy reliance on drawers in the kitchen. We would definitely do drawers - we have cabinets now and I even though they have pull out inserts in some I cannot wait to have drawers.
Here is a cropped version of the plan that only shows the kitchen and the outdoor terrace. I hope that helps!
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Comments (20)Barnhouse, You and I have very similar houses on the interior- yours is really gorgeous on the outside too. Here is a quick shot of my dining area and you can perhaps see the similarity. From GW Photos Post and beam houses come with lots of special considerations, but they are worth it. Coincidentally, my kitchen project started out to be painted grey cabinets with Cambria Torquay, so I think those choices are great. You will need to go with a really deep saturated grey, I think, to work with the beams. I wimped out for that reason and others and went with walnut cabinets. I like the contrast of the dark walnut with the golden/reddish beams and flooring. A light countertop is crucial. I didn't end up with Cambria Torquay, when I saw larger slabs of it, it had a colder look than what we wanted and wasn't natural looking enough us-just our opinion. We went with a more beige stone that we are totally in love with. My kitchen is mostly finished, just some touches left, I will attach a link at the bottom for you if you are curious. I am a little unsure about how you will fit the refrigerator in the current pantry niche. Our refrigerator is actually under a knee joint, and we had to make sure that it was at least 11 inches out from the post to fit under the knee. The back of the refrigerator cabinetry is notched around the knee. I think if you move far enough out from the post to fit an approx. 70" tall refrigerator under the knee you won't have enough space left in the niche. Your contractor is right you can't notch a knee- definitely not advisable. Is there anyway that you can remove the walls that box in the current refrigerator? If you can at least remove the one to the left of the fridge I think your space will become more workable. I do not believe those walls are supporting, in our type of construction only posts and beams are supporting. What is behind and over that space? Is there something in the soffit over the fridge? If you could remove that wall to the left of the fridge, maybe you could move the range to the right of the window and put an externally vented hood over it? RE the peninsula, if you remove the peninsula you are going to have to decide about flooring. It looks like everything is hardwood now, except the kitchen. The peninsula provides a natural flooring transition point, without it will the transtion be OK. In our case it wouldn't have and so we put hardwood into the kitchen area. You really need to think about lighting. I assume that your ceiling is like mine and you cannot do recessed lights. The natural solution is track and that is why it is featured in so many post and beam homes. I decided to mount sconces around my perimeter and I used wiremold to get a fixture over my island. (The island light is not up yet in the link.) Here is a link that might be useful: Localeater's Kitchen...See More50's House w/Galley Kitchen Needs Major Remodel
Comments (3)I would try to get hold of an IKEA kitchens catalog, or even their regular catalog. The style may not be what you want, but I find they are good at maximizing usage of small spaces. For instance, they have horizontal wall cabinets with doors that flip UP rather than to the side -- I would think those would be great in a narrow kitchen. They also have pull-out pantries that use every inch but increase accessibility to items in the back -- items you may have put somewhere else absent the pull-out. Many other cabinet lines have these options, but I was just at IKEA this weekend, so it's fresh on my mind....See MoreTotal newbie needs remodel layout help
Comments (16)Oh, great idea, rhome! Summer, sinks don't have to go under a window. A poster here asked not that long ago to see photos of kitchens with sinks not under a window. You might find that thread via a search. If I can remember the name of the person who owns a kitchen with a corner sink not under a window but near one, I'll post a link to her finished kitchen pics. In the meantime, here are some pics courtesy of houzz.com [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/case-design-remodeling-inc-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~92625) [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by dc metro kitchen and bath Case Design/Remodeling, Inc. [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/trish-namm-farmhouse-kitchen-new-york-phvw-vp~555498) [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by new york kitchen and bath Trish Namm, Allied ASID - Kent Kitchen Works Here's one with a corner sink that overlaps a window more than yours will. [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/multi-level-kitchen-design-traditional-kitchen-new-york-phvw-vp~59135) [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by new york kitchen and bath Susan Serra, CKD And another corner sink set-up with a window nearby [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-reno-contemporary-kitchen-toronto-phvw-vp~99901) [modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by toronto interior designer design box And another, although I have to point out that the DW placement is poor. When the DW is open, you won't have room to stand at the sink. That's why I placed a 12" cab between 42" corner sink cab and DW. [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/shoshana-gosselin-contemporary-kitchen-philadelphia-phvw-vp~51096) [contemporary kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by philadelphia interior designer Shoshana Gosselin And a little more inspiration [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/shirley-corwin-farmhouse-kitchen-cleveland-phvw-vp~47171) [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) And another [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/fanning-kitchen-1-modern-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~590403) [modern kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/modern-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2105) by dc metro kitchen and bath Cameo Kitchens, Inc. And another [[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-remodel-traditional-kitchen-milwaukee-phvw-vp~561027) [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by milwaukee kitchen and bath Intercept There are pros and cons of corner sinks. One less corner cab with its awkward storage is a plus. A downside is that it's a bit more crowded to have two people at the sink. And if you're vertically challenged like I am ;-) wiping behind the sink requires lots of stretching and contortions (I currently have a corner sink set-up). Some people love them, some detest them. I like mine but even so, I'm not keeping it when we remodel. We're moving the cook top off the island and I need to shift the sink out of the corner so that I gain more prep room between sink and cook top. It will still be under a window because we're replacing the existing window with one that is 6" wider. Enlarging the window or shifting the one you have to the left is an option for you. You'll need to decide whether a corner sink is a good choice in order to keep the other window and have more counter between sink and range. Maybe you can find one at a local kitchen showroom to try out....See MoreFamily Home- major remodel- kitchen/master suite
Comments (30)@smalloldhouse_gw thank you for taking the time to look/read! We’re looking to remodel an existing area of the house into the master suite so we Have fixed dimensions to work with. The other option is how the bed currently is which is against the left wall on the picture. This does provide a little more walking space around the bed and we may well keep it there in the future. The window on that wall partially overlaps the bed frame which isn’t the best look. Also- if we switched to a queen size bed instead of a king that would obviously allow more space but we like the king size bed. Another thing is that the window the bed is against is really the second floor at that point in the house- the way dips down to go into the garage underneath. So it’s not like anyone could walk by outside our window or anything. Currently all exterior items are remaining the same - no changes to exterior doors/windows at this time....See MoreRelated Professionals
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4 years agolast modified: 4 years agoI rearranged the short wall on the left to put the fridge there and used a shallow, side-loading broom cabinet on the end. I don't think there's a concern about heat transfer between a fridge and pantry--we see that line-up a lot--as long as you follow the installation specs for airspace at the back and sides. If you are still concerned, you can include a sheet of foam insulation between the fridge surround and the pantry, covered by trim. Also note--I voided the bottom left corner (27"), but if you want to reclaim that space, it could open to the exercise room, for storage in that area.
IMO, dishes should be stored near the DW, for the convenience of whomever is unloading, then an individual can retrieve a cup or bowl whenever he needs it. An exception is a coffee/drinks station, if it's far from the dish storage area. It looks as if you have a coffee center planned for the short counter in the top right of the kitchen (top right on the plan), so since dish storage will be near that spot, include a beverage fridge there. A small upper cabinet to the left of the MW could house a few glasses, if you really want them near the main fridge.
72" is too far between the sink and range, even if that was your primary prep space. 36" is the minimum recommended by the NKBA, but maximum should be a comfortable step, or two--48"-54". I'd move the sink over far enough to put the DW to the left, along with a 36" super susan in the corner. You would have the choice of storing dishes in drawers on the wall to the left, or between the clean-up sink and range. Either location is out of the main prep space and convenient to the DR, for setting the table, and to the coffee/beverage counter. Dishes, cups, and glasses don't need to be kept in upper cabinets; almost anything--even small appliances--- can be efficiently stored in drawers. Dishes in drawers.
I made the island 6.5', rather than 6', since each seat needs 24" elbow space, plus 15" leg space. The prep sink should be at least 18" wide, and I moved it to the other side to leave a nice landing space for incoming groceries to be loaded to the fridge and pantry. A trash receptacle is on the corner of the island, where it can be easily shared by prep and cooking zones, but if that's too far from the clean-up zone, I included another trash/recycle pull-out near the beverage center. The range was moved down slightly, to keep it centered on the island. I added legs to the island seating overhang, and an extra run of shallow cabinetry to help support the counter.Side-loading broom cabinet, top right:
New to Kitchens? Read me first.
(I'm not a pro, but I want everyone to have the best kitchen possible. :)
bevydana thanked mama goose_gw zn6OH- 4 years ago
- 4 years ago
Thank you so much, mama goose, for your incredibly helpful comments. We shared them with our architect and he too was so impressed by the time you took and the thoughtfulness in your comments. We met with him this weekend to discuss the revised kitchen layout, which is below. We would be very interested whether you or any of the other layout experts have any further comments. We are holding off on interior elevations of the kitchen to make sure that this is a good workable layout. Instead of voiding the corner, he designed a partial walk in (step in) pantry but on some shelves, there would be a recessed microwave that faces out onto the counter in the kitchen. The landing space for fridge contents is the island. He also reduced the counter outdoors to allow for a little more space - we don't think we need so much prep space outdoors. We are wondering where we would store drinking glasses in light of relationship between fridge, dishwasher and work zone.
Thank you for any additional thoughts!
4 years ago- 4 years ago
- 4 years ago
4 years agoIf you had great views, I would rather have the living adjacent to those, and the kitchen would face and look over the living to the views. But, working with your desired kitchen location and keeping views from the living open, I would tweak the basic concept a bit:
- 4 years agolast modified: 4 years ago
As I mentioned before, I would put a drinks center, with a beverage fridge, in the upper right corner of the plan. (As we're viewing the drawn plan). But if you want glasses for ice and chilled water near the fridge, and the MW sits on the counter, then you could store some glasses on a shelf above the MW.
You might also consider an appliance pantry for the corner, if that works better than the pantry as it's now designed. These pics are examples I keep on my desktop:
Miss TKO 2015