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kristooper

Possible incorrect installation of farmhouse sink.

Kris E
3 years ago

It seems that our sink has been installed a little too deep and now the quartz is obstructing the top corners of the sink. 36” Hahn Stainless Steel

Comments (26)

  • User
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Whomever OK’d the sink install position before the template gets to buy a new slab and pay to redo it.

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  • Kris E
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Jospeh Corley: My wife and I were expecting the reveal to be equal on all three sides. We also feel that the slab was cut too deep, too close towards where the faucet will be installed and so to compensate, they also installed the sink deeper. We were expecting something more along the of this pics...

  • itsourcasa
    3 years ago

    Kris E who was there when the countertop guy was templating? I have never seen a countertop go in front of the sides of a farm sink like that.

    @User I don't 100% agree with that, our cabinet installer made and installed the supports and cut the cabinet for our farm sink and placed it in. It wasn't secured at that point, it could be moved forward or backward. When the countertop guy came we decided together where the sink should be pulled out to and he templated from there. Once the countertops were in that is when it was secured and caulked in. Someone should have been there for the countertop templating to make sure the sink was pulled out far enough.

  • PRO
    MDLN
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Would NOT be happy with that option. My install looks close to this.

  • Kris E
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    itsourcasa: Our GC and the rep for the quartz company was there to take measurements for the island and countertops. They had the sink and the template. I’ve never seen a farmhouse sink installed in that fashion.

  • Aglitter
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    I can see why this was done since the apron front is convex, and they lined up the farthest point of the curve with the cabinetry fronts below. You also now have a convenient ledge to prop a cutting board from front to back. This is exactly how I'll be asking my own apron-front sink to be installed in a few weeks, with a 1/2" reveal on the back, and 1/8" reveal on the sides. Because your quartz countertop appears to have a laminated, mitered edge elsewhere, I can also see why they chose this configuration, though it may not necessarily be the best. The caulking does need to be touched up.

  • Kris E
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Silverlined: I’ve never seen a sink of this style installed with any part of the face obstructed by the quartz. Do you have any examples?

  • Aglitter
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    You have me there with trying to find another example of a similar installation. Most laminated edges are dealt with differently around an apron-front sink. In any case, the decision about what to do regarding a mitered edge around an apron-front sink isn't an easy one, and much of it depends on how the cabinetry was built to accommodate the sink in a certain position for various options. I'll post a few examples here for you of apron-front sinks with mitered edge countertops running into them, as follows:









  • Kris E
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    JuneKnow: I really don’t see a reason why the sink could not have been installed out more unless the quartz was cut incorrectly. This is the 36” Hahn that we purchased.

  • itsourcasa
    3 years ago

    Talk to your GC then. I have never seen an install done like that. Have you questioned the GC on why it was done like that? Seems like a lot of the sink doesn't even overhang the cabinets below... you're going to get water dripping down into the cabinet below. I'm no sure what would be involved to redo it but don't let this go.

  • Kris E
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    All great input, Thank you 🙏🏽

  • Juli
    3 years ago

    I think because of the waterfall style of your counters they got templated like that. I think all of the pictures posted of other sink/counter installs are not waterfall. It looks like the sink should have been set out much further to compensate for this design. I agree with itsourcasa that you will have problems with dripping water on cabinets below.

  • itsourcasa
    3 years ago

    @Juli I thought of that at first but googled "waterfall island farm sink" and got zero results that looked like this one.

    Kris E you could have your GC install a drip ledge, we have one with our farm sink, but I'm still not sure I'd be happy with that install.


  • PRO
    The Kitchen Place
    3 years ago

    I'll go one more step farther back than JuneKnow. Farm/Apron sink planning starts with the cabinet order. Farmsink cabinets are universal or they can be made custom sized to look and fit better.


    It looks like your sink doesn't sit flush with the sink cabinet....it's up higher. It seems to me that installing the sink flush with the cabinet and then having the edge sit on TOP of the sink, as opposed to notching around it, would have been the way to go. Who specified the installed height of the sink? When was the edge and thickness of the tops specified. All of it should have been planned out by someone, or all of you. Who set the sink? Did anyone ask you how you wanted it? The GC should have helped oversee all of this. This combination of choices is not for the unexperienced!.


    One more thing: How long did the sink sit installed in the cabinet until you realized it wasn't pulled out enough to your liking? You might have some ownership in this if you didn't say anything or question it. Was a kitchen designer involved in this, or did they just sell cabinets to you? If the latter, then you, the GC and the fabber were on your own to figure out the engineering of the this top/sink install. The waterfall sides further complicate a re-do.


    Expect finger pointing between yourself, the cabinet person, countertop fabricator and GC. Either live with it or see what can be done at what expense and whose expense! Much depends on the planning of this as to who is at fault here. I'm not saying any of this is yours, but you possibly contributed to it without knowing. With such a large expensive top....someone should have been asking questions.



  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    3 years ago

    The only way that sink is coming forward is to tap off the cabinet front, drop the sink, have a stainless steel faucet deck welded to the rear of the sink, recut the top, build down the edges, re-profile and polish the edges, and reinstall the sink. A lot of work, but less expensive than replacing the top.

  • Kris E
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Joseph Corlett, LLC: How much would something like that cost? We know what we paid for the slab and fabrication, but we’ve also been out of the house for quite some time now and the wife is considering living with it and try to be compensated monetarily by the GC.

  • Aglitter
    3 years ago

    @Kris E Cost aside, popping off your cabinet front is bound to leave you with paint touch-up work to do. Some welders could do a good job of giving you a sink deck, while others wouldn't, so if you choose that option you may need to prepare for visible welds plus the fact that a sink deck is probably even further from the configuration your wife had in mind than the quartz overlap on the front is. The totality of this design just doesn't lend itself to the combination you have here with a mitered edge and convex apron front. If you had a flat apron front, the sink would likely have been brought forward several inches more by your installers. If you had eliminated the mitered edge, then the countertop would have fit seamlessly over the top edges of the apron front. This was just a difficult combination, and I think the solution you have isn't bad, especially if you can get some compensation for it and live with it. In time if you want a change, get a custom sink from Havens or Rachielle, would be my recommendation, and choose a 3 cm slab that does not require a miter.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    "Joseph Corlett, LLC: How much would something like that cost?"

    If you were local, I'd do it for 5K.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    3 years ago

    silverlined:


    There would be no cabinet paint damage when popping off a cabinet front. That only happens when cabinets are painted after they're ganged together. My metal fabricator has to have his best guy do my welds, however, they are spectacular. The sink deck doesn't change the configuration of anything, it simply turns stone into stainless steel. The shape of the sink front is irrelevant. Since the sink cutout edges weren't built down, the sink had to be placed immediately behind the front edge drop or have the front edge notched as pictured previously.


    A custom made sink is an excellent idea in this case. It would eliminate the need to remove the cabinet front as the sink could be cut free of the stone and come right out the top. A faucet deck would be unnecessary. The new cutout edges could be built down or the front edge of the top notched. I think I'd prefer the latter.

  • Aglitter
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @Kris E Please pay close attention to what @Joseph Corlett, LLC said in the previous post. I think you might have your answer there with a custom sink. Furthermore, you could even ask for a custom sink to be made in a flush-mount style and solve this problem entirely with zero re-fabrication of the quartz required. I'll explain more about that in a minute, but first I want to point out that adding a faucet deck may not change the configuration of the quartz, but it certainly changes the configuration in terms of where the faucet is mounted. The faucet not only will now protrude from metal rather than from quartz, but in your case since the sink is undermounted, the faucet will be at a lower level than the quartz. I think this would be even further from what your wife had in mind than is your current scenario. In fact, I was trying to find a sample photo for you of what this would look like and came up empty handed because it just isn't done that often. It's more common to see a metal faucet deck on a flush mount or drop-in style of sink where the faucet can protrude at a level even with the countertop. Here's a sample photo of a faucet deck on a flush-mount sink:


    Moving on to the custom sink idea, Joseph has suggested that if you sacrifice the current sink, it can be cut out and thereby save you the risk of deconstructing your cabinetry to take it out in one piece. You haven't told us if your cabinetry was painted after installation, but even if it wasn't, there are different ways that cabinets are put together, and the sink base sitting in my kitchen right now prepared for installation for my own renovation is very solidly built with multiple methods and points of attachment of the face to the box, so it's my personal opinion that you are facing at the very least a risk to the finish by considering this option, but of course your technician on site would be better positioned to advise you on that based on how your cabinetry was built and coated.

    Joseph gave you a plan whereby you could go back with another undermounted apron-front sink which would require some re-fabrication of the quartz to work around the miter problem. Joseph has given you alternatives of either building down the edges of the full surround or notching the mitered edge, examples shown as follows:





    With the first option, you end up with a larger-than-average lip around the sink, although in your specific case the miter size looks to be within range of this being an acceptable alternative, and with the second option, my personal opinion is that the notch is unattractive.

    What I'd like to suggest as another alternative is a flush-mount sink, also sometimes called an up-mounted or top-mount sink, like this photo from Havens Metal:



    There is also the drop-in style option, again a photo from Havens Metal:



    I will tell you right off that I've done research on both these sink mounting styles, and the drop-in styles tend to develop crud at the lip. That's why kitchen design has so strongly trended toward undermounted sinks in the last couple of decades, due to ease of cleaning. The top-mount, up-mount, or flush-mount, whatever you want to call it, has a similar problem in that the division between the countertop and sink needs to be well-sealed and can fray over time, not to mention be a little more difficult to maintain in terms of cleaning than an undermount. However, the fireclay and other white styles of farmhouse, apron-front sinks are often mounted in an flush-mount manner, so this style of installation is something that is still done in modern design.

    Coming back full circle to Joseph's original suggestion to do a new undermounted apron-front with a notch at the side, here is an example of that very installation style from Havens Metal:



    The important thing is to know ahead of time what the look will be depending on what option you choose. There are many custom sink manufacturers around the country, but Havens Metal and Rachiele stood out in my own research for my kitchen renovation due to their quality and service. Havens used to manufacture all of Rachiele's sinks but separated out a few years ago and now focuses exclusively on its own line of products. Rachiele isn't a manufacturer but rather contracts its production out to other companies. [Correction: Rachiele recently established its own factory.] I chose the Prestige finish that Havens Metal offers which is a rolled, 3D finish that helps hide scratches and water spots, an important factor to me since I did select an apron-front style, and scratches and water spots can be especially prominent on stainless steel sink aprons. Rachiele also offers a similar textured finish. The pricing from Havens slightly beat that of Rachiele, and I felt comfortable working directly with a manufacturer that could communicate directly with me to customize any element I wanted which is why I ultimately chose Havens. Ask for Alex Havens when you contact the company if you go that route. Note that Rachiele also has a great reputation for customization via the owner Dino Rachiele.

    In closing, I will agree with what @The Kitchen Place stated about apron-front sink planning being critical at the cabinetry design phase. So much of what happens at installation is controlled by the sink-to-cabinet ratios. If you weren't involved with decisions at that phase, then someone really dropped their responsibility with assisting you in this remodel. By moving forward with a custom sink, you can have the measurements made to retrofit your current space precisely. I'd also like to reiterate what I mentioned earlier in this thread, that what you have now isn't all that bad and probably something you'd get used to seeing over time. Please let us know if we may help with any more specific information. On an entirely different topic, after much research, I chose a Brizo articulating faucet with covered hose in Brilliance Stainless, a PVD finish, to go with my custom sink. You might check out the quality and function of that style if your faucet isn't selected already.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    3 years ago

    " I want to point out that adding a faucet deck may not change the configuration of the quartz, but it certainly changes the configuration in terms of where the faucet is mounted."


    It does not. As I explained, you are simply switching materials:

    That faucet would be in that location whether or not it was mounted on a stainless steel faucet deck on on stone. Plus now your wet hands are dripping into the sink instead of lying on stone at the bottom of the faucet. Depending on the stone, the cleanup habits of the users, and the hardness of the water, this can be very important.


    "Rachiele isn't a manufacturer but rather contracts its production out to other companies."


    You must have gotten this information from Havens. When they split, Dino built a state-of-the-art manufacturing facility locally. He took a few of Haven's employees too. There was an article about his new plant in the local paper.

  • Aglitter
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Thanks for the clarification on Rachiele's new factory, @Joseph Corlett, LLC. My information about Rachiele has come from Houzz, the general internet, Dino's own website, and Dino himself as recently as earlier this year when I discussed with him the Waterstone faucets he sells.

    In my previous comment, the sentences immediately following the quote you lifted complete my meaning, ". . . The faucet not only will now protrude from metal rather than from quartz, but in your case since the sink is undermounted, the faucet will be at a lower level than the quartz. I think this would be even further from what your wife had in mind than is your current scenario." I made no mention of the front-to-back placement, merely the up-and-down height difference when mounted on the countertop vs. deck, which you have illustrated for us in your photo. I considered an intrinsic faucet deck for my kitchen for the very benefits you have mentioned. In the OP's case, it sounds like his wife is expecting a modern aesthetic for this mount, which a deck would probably push out of tolerance for her, but I am curious to hear an update from the OP about what they will decide to do. In my case, I decided upon a hard soapstone for my countertop which would not be etched by the acidic pH of my city's tap water like some other stones might, so I felt comfortable skipping the sink deck for my own installation. The OP has quartz so would be equally protected from any acidic water around the faucet in terms of etching were the faucet mounted from the countertop. Also, the styles of sinks I considered that had sink decks featured drainboards on one or both sides, and when I decided to do a ledge sink with a strainer basin placed inside the sink for draining dishes, the need for other styles I had considered was eliminated.