Elmer statistically when people acquire wealth most families have lost it by the third generation. Rags to riches to rags in three generations is an old saw that happens to be true. I once read that when people inherit money or come into a sudden flush of cash virtually no one has it in two years. The reason is obviously your idea of people having no need to watch their expenditure.

Again, patricia, I think we have different people in mind. There's very little old family money or landed gentry in my area. I was talking about people I know and have known or known of.

I do agree with you that unless the family origin includes a name like Rockefeller, Kennedy, Vanderbilt, or any of the lesser ones of that ilk, those who don't have an occupation or business to run and rely family money and so-called "trust funds" are likely to deplete what's there.

What in the world this has to do with more normal people and a conversation about frugality or being a cheapskate, I don't know. I must have missed something.

A cheapskate is someone who at a lunch with friends leaves a $1 tip and expects the others to ante up the rest. I don't go for lunch with those people.

We are not wealthy but while we are frugal we certainly don't need to be. We're frugal because I refuse to waste money. Being cheap when shopping for me is buying the cheapest winter coat on the rack and having to replace it the following year because it fell apart. Being frugal is spending more money on a good quality coat that will last 2-3 years and having, in the long run, spent less money on an annual basis. And that coat need not have been on sale. Being stupid with money (for me) is spending money on a name on that coat or on that purse.

The study I read about lottery winners says the opposite what many people believe to be true. Lottery winners who win 2 million plus are more likely to hang on to it

It is the Swedish study so I don't know if that makes a difference. They did mention a American study and said that it had found similar results.

https://time.com/5427275/lottery-winning-happiness-debunked/

My husband works in Corporate Law and Wills and Estates.

With very, very few exceptions, second and third generations of money could never be called frugal.

Yeonassky,

I volunteer to test out what you are saying....

We should make a practice of defining our terms before discussing things. They make books that allow you to do that. ;) It would save a lot of keystrokes.

I equated "frugal" and "cheap" until watching "The Frugal Gourmet" cooking show. After that, I began to think of frugality as a combination of making the most of what you are able to afford -- buying for value not price; and not wasting whatever material assets you have acquired.

Elmer, and anyone else who has contact with the very-wealthy (multiple homes, first class travel, latest model toys, etc), do you consider their spending to be wasteful? Why or why not?

who has contact with the very-wealthy (multiple homes, first class travel, latest model toys, etc), do you consider their spending to be wasteful? Why or why not?

A few years ago, there was a discussion where a poster had commented negatively about people who go on vacation or buy cars while the world has children who go hungry. Vacations and vehicles were not necessities.

Everyone draws the line in a different spot. It’s only wasteful if the person shelling out the money believes it to be wasteful.

We’ve had to be.

That said, we like good food so we spend a bit more there. We do not waste however.

I’m low maintenance. Don’t buy things for myself.

Growing up, my parents were poor. They did well here in the States. When I was a kid we’d visit the relatives in Brittany in NW France. It was beautiful. Farmland. I learned a lot there. What I value and what I don’t.

If I can fix something, or repurpose it, I am much happier than throwing something away.

Yeonassky, thank you for that link. While, Shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations has a certain ring to it, it does not have the ring of truth. Wealth accrues advantages over time. Plus the idea that poor people are all fools with their money seems a bit slanderous to me ;-)

Nickel, no, I do not consider enjoying luxury goods wasteful. Plus luxury spending creates jobs.

Michele, I did not grow up in a particularly frugal family, kinda the opposite, really. However, being European, there is a strong cultural aversion to waste. Whether it was my Italian great grandfather shaking his head at all the packaging used in American grocery stores, or a German relative showing me simple ways we can use up leftover ingredients in a vegetable soup, not wasting was a virtue.

I was actually surprised that when it came time to choose a school for my children, this cultural issue played a role in my decision to go with a French school.

PS Yes, I know Europeans today generate almost as much waste as Americans.

PPS My husband's family are not particularly frugal either. And yet somehow one of our children is inherently frugal. Our eldest has an aversion to spending money. On his first big solo overseas trip he forgot that I showed him an envelope where I put the bulk of his money for the trip. He had only a small amount in his wallet and his atm, which in China about ten years ago was not the payment method of choice (no QRcode phone payments either yet.) At any rate we gave him more cash than we thought he would need. I packed it into an envelope and put it in his suitcase, showing him where it was for when he needed more (he was 11, so I didn't trust him to pack neatly and he needed to wear suits a lot). Driving home from the airport I asked if he had currency left over. He said no. I was shocked. Wow, I thought, he must have bought a lot of things. As we were unpacking his bags, what do you think I found? The untouched envelope with all the RMB we had bought him. He forgot all about it. He said the little money in his wallet sufficed and he was able to buy his brothers and us everything he wanted to.

As Zalco said of her own perspectives, and to answer nickel, I have no problem at all with people's spending patterns. It's not my concern, not at all. It only becomes a problem when people fixate with others about what they do or don't do or have, whether as a 'have" or a "have not". If a person who has very comfortable financial means is able to enjoy what their means can buy or allow them to do in any variety of ways, why not? No reason to act like Scrooge McDuck and accumulate wealth simply to count it.

To describe another person's spending (if within their own personal means) as being "wasteful" reeks of envy and jealousy.

I don't think the conduct of lottery winners shines any light on this
topic. Rather than being people accustomed to comforts (because of their
family circumstances) or others who gained financial security through
some combination of hard work, risk taking in business, or the good
luck, lottery winners by their very nature (the socio-economic strata
that predominates among lottery ticket buyers) are very often rags to
riches stories. People with a background of modest means who suddenly have more money than before. That's a very different and limited situation to what I thought this conversation was about. .

Did anyone see the movie, "Crazy Rich Asians?" The one line I took away from this movie was , "Rich people love FREE stuff." ☺

""Rich people love FREE stuff.""

I haven't seen the movie but as far as the reality of personal experiences is concerned, I've not found this to be the case. People whose means allow them to do and spend more than others often pay little attention to the prices they pay. Why? Because it doesn't affect what they can do.

Take yourself to a BMW or Mercedes or Tesla dealership on a weekend day or (in the old days) the door of a Nordstrom's and watch the traffic of people coming and going. Those aren't bargain seekers you see.

I have some exceedingly wealthy relatives....multiple residences across the country, multiple high-end automobiles, all the latest toys, frequent travelers, etc. But they are also exceedingly generous - treat family members to vacations, fund the college educations of all related offspring (often unbeknownst to the parents of still school aged kids), entertain lavishly, bought my sister a condo so she could live close by, support local causes and events. And give charitably both personally and through their company.

They spend freely and pay no attention to cost. If they want it or like it, they buy it. I do not consider their spending wasteful, but often - at least to my eyes - unnecessary. But if I was in the same position, I might not consider those extravagances unnecessary :-)

It's their money - they can do what they want with it!!

I worked in a “high end” flower shop in Soho for close to 30 years.

This was an eye opener as well. We had super wealthy clients, famous clients, (that doesn’t always go hand in hand), struggling people, artists, designers, young, old....

I had a hard time dealing with so many people at first, as I’m not quite the outgoing type.

Over time I realized that I could connect in a friendly way with people from all walks of life. The level of wealth and fame didn’t affect that in the least. Some people are just genuine. They are civil and kind. It makes such a difference.

As for spending. There were people who could and would spend crazy money. It took a while to get used to people spending more on one gift arrangement than I would earn in a week, but it’s true that in spending it, they were spreading it around. Helped to keep that shop going as long as it did.

We have some very wealthy friends but they didn't come from wealth. They spoil themselves where they think it's important. The husband works very long hours including weekends and evenings and when they travel, they travel 5star and everything is taken care of for them. But when my friend is shopping for clothes she shops at Winners because spending money on clothes isn't important to her and entertaining isn't part of his career.

I just had to laugh at myself! Just back from the grocery store, bought fabric softener sheets. I cut them in half before I put them in the laundry room, because a full sheet is not necessary.

Am I frugal? Or am I cheap?

because a full sheet is not necessary.

I'm curious how you determined that a full sheet isn't necessary? Not needed to combat static cling?

I buy the store brand dryer sheets because I don't notice a difference between them and the Bounce brand. Yes, my wife thinks I'm cheap!

LoneJack: We always buy the unscented sheets. One time I accidentally bought scented sheets and we hated the scent. So I cut them in half to maybe cut down on the horrible scent. Didn't help the smell much, but I discovered that half a sheet works as well as a full sheet.

I've been cutting them in half ever since.

Nice discovery. I buy the unscented sheets as well.

The, Rich people love free stuff, is a funny line, but silly. Everybody loves receiving gifts and rich people are given "gifts" a lot by people who expect a return on investment. Tiffany's providing party favors for a fundraiser, being invited to the soft opening of restaurants, bottles of wine offered by the restaurant when you are celebrating, these gifts are all predicated on your spending lavishly with the business offering up their appreciation with these goodies. So yes, rich people get lots of free stuff, but it none of it matters, it's just a marketing cost to the businesses.

Nicole, I didn't see the movie but it sounded funny! Not just rich people love free stuff, of course -- I think most little kids love freebies, and ... not every adult in my life has grown out of it, lol. Why do you even want that t-shirt, just because it was shot out of a cannon at a sports event? ??. And my dad was famous for attending trade shows and coming back with a bagful of give-a-ways. (He especially liked those little pom-poms with googly eyes, and an advertising slogan attached. Yikes.) But, to each his own.

Elmer, I liked your definition of 'cheap' and I agree, too much interest in other people's spending habits is nosey and distasteful. But I appreciate your sharing your experiences.

Still musing about the term 'frugal'. It's funny how it can be either an insult or a compliment. It's more about what is the person being frugal for ... their motivation can be noble (living within their means, or accumulating wealth to donate to a public cause) or their motivation can be basically the same as any cheapskates' (which is sad).

I don't think I'm frugal or cheap but more practical. It is practical to ensure that my money goes as far as it can possibly go because I don't have endless sums of money or even remotely close to endless sums of money.

I think there is a saying of Penny wise and pound foolish or something like that. I do watch out for myself that I am not being pound foolish or the Canadian dollar equivalent. I suppose that's the saying I took most to heart. But I believe that is practical as well. Or maybe I just don't like being called cheap by anyone else besides myself. Haha.

"So yes, rich people get lots of free stuff, but it none of it matters, it's just a marketing cost to the businesses"

I agree. I loved the free leather key rings when i purchased a BMW. I of course had to PAY for the BMW out of my own pocket....but LOVED the free stuff!!!!

I will spend money...but would rather not.

The motivation for being frugal can simply mean 'Saving for a rainy day' which may or may not ever come. If it never comes then you can either spend the money in retirement or leave it to your heirs.

I'm frugal, correlating with my limited funds. In the matter of means, i'm the exception to the rule on houzz. I do not own a car, and i'm living in a family home owned by four siblings with myself as "lifetime resident". I have made many purchases over the decades which were of practical necessity, or gift items. Much of which turned out to be junk.

If as a pipedream i won a significant jackpot, depending on the latest restrictions cranked out by Covidarians, and depending on potential world changes, I'd perhaps explore stem cells via medical tourism (though i don't know who might administer cord-blood MSCs for severe varicose veins). I'd try to move out of my moneypit residence which has prematurely aged me, in favor of a 2-bedroom condo with baseboard heat (vs. my current forced air), and where the climate isn't too dry and hot, nor too extreme. After that, if i've not yet collapsed, I might invest in various innovative food idea's which i have, and perhaps donate to causes i feel are constructive.

I don't buy dryer sheets at all. I'll tolerate the limited static cling that we get. Does that make me cheap or frugal or just not seeing the point of buying them.

I use Downy in the wash because I love the scent.

If my husband puts the clothes from the washer to the dryer, he then throws a Bounce sheet in. I hate that! Ruins the lovely scent and I can’t figure out why he thinks we need dryer sheets.

HG since that is the case buy the Downy fabric sheets.

"If as a pipedream i won a significant jackpot, depending on the latest restrictions cranked out by Covidarians"

You have the right to any opinions you want.

You do not have the right to anonymously express contempt and blatantly insult other people in this forum.

Elmer....I think Jally means....that if he/she won a bunch of money they'd spend it differently than money they had to go earn. I get that.

Nicole, thanks for your diplomacy. I know exactly what i meant, but i refuse to dignify arguments with further ones, such as echoing VP Mike Pence.

I read the Covidians in the comment and considered it an insult to anyone that tries to take precautions not to get the virus. Dance around the word all you want but it is an insult.

I consider the word choice to be intentionally disrespectful and flippant. Others are welcome to their views if different.

jally read some history. Those things have happened and people can complain about them but when they have happened it was for the good of society as a whole. Sometimes you must do things you do not like because it benefits others.

Jally, jally, jally. You do see the worst in things, don't you?

This took an odd turn.

Frugal: A tricky wood whose meaning gets stretched. I see some distortion above in the use of this word. As was explained in a TV show from long ago, "The Frugal Gourmet ", frugal does not mean cheap, instead in cooking, it refers to using all of the raw food stock to make a dish with no left over scraps to throw away. It can also mean using all types of food that is regionally available so that none is wasted. Frugal refers to the economical use of resources whether expensive or low cost. When ti comes to money, it can mean economical expenditure of that money and in today's common usage, it usually refers to getting the best bargain. In today's common street usage, it has become, finding the cheapest irregardless of quality, and this is a stretch of its definition.

It’s a good thing I brought my tinfoil hat with me.

I am careful with spending money and hate seeing My adult kids waste so much. Especially food, buy too much, let it sit in fridge, then throw out. Oh and we don’t eat leftovers, oh and we forgot all about that now freezer burned food at the bottom of the freezer...on and on. Bite my tongue time, for sure!

Deliberate or continued careless waste makes me sad too, gettingnowhere.

Oh, something I would consider wasteful.

Getting UberEats to drive to Starbucks to pick up a single coffee and deliver it to my house.

I am surprised at the scale of success, even before Covid, of the delivery services especially those based on the single serving scale. One McDonalds meal, one coffee, one lipstick...

Especially since we are supposed to be going “green”...this is not environmentally friendly. The amount of pollution and plastic from the Uber industry is outstanding.

I also prefer the word “thrifty” – “frugal” sounds miserly to me. Like, say, Scrooge. I typically do go “green” as much as possible.

I am thrifty on many things, but splurge selectively on others. I am thrifty when it comes to clothing – I have never been a clotheshorse, and wear clothing until it wears out. I have TWO pairs of shoes (not counting a couple more of boots, or a pair of house slippers, or a pair of beach flip-flops). You will never mistake me for Imelda Marcos! Old clothing goes into farm clothing or painting/staining wear.

I have no concept of the latest fashions. Is it comfortable? Does it (still) fit? When I moved here the only clothing I could donate on my way out of the old place were those things I grew out of. I only own one dress (although there are a selection of skirts here.)

I am growing more and more of my own vegetables. I also do chickens and their eggs but chicken housing is certainly NOT thrifty – but maybe down the road, over time. I will dehydrate and will water-bath can produce. I am not yet nearly prolific enough to rely on only what I grow. Composting is a thing here. Eating nose to tail is appropriate, especially with any animal I grow on site, although the chicken crop and intestines get composted of course.

Construction is as green as affordable.

In building this house, I went with a log kit – a lot cheaper than the design an architect designed for me, even though I have approximately the same square footage. One
factor, though, is in this rural area I’d never get back the monetary value of his design and build, if I’d ever decided to/needed to sell this place. I went with inexpensive appliances – but looking at longevity reviews to see which average at not needing to be replaced as frequently as others. (Of course, with any individual appliance, this is a guessing-game). If I want ice, I freeze my own cubes.

I went thrifty for the bathroom vanities, while I used quartz in the kitchen. I did pick
relatively less expensive patterns. No fancy edging. All my tiling cost under
$3.75 per square foot, with the exception of a small amount of accent tile for
the bathrooms. But I decided not to go linoleum in this house. I did not add a
backsplash to the kitchen – it is washable sheetrock.

I had to get a new sofa bed for my living room here – IKEA came through. I don’t use lots of IKEA – most of my furniture is hand-me-downs from the family, and from a couple of local tag sales. Although I bought new dining table chairs (the parental ones either broke or were exceedingly uncomfortable to begin with). I’ve had these chairs since
the 90s – from Sears. Still comfortable and solid after all these years. I did buy other extra furniture when moving here in an effort to purge ALL unhealthy press-wood from my life: - from a stain-it-yourself furniture store back down in Connecticut. My queen-sized bed came from a furniture store going out of business and offering cut rates on both the frame and a really comfy mattress I tested during my visit – the owner even delivered it for free if I would help him bring it into the (previous) house, which I did. (At that point it appears he had no remaining employees.) I sent the old bed frame to friends of mine living north who needed needed this after a house fire. Most of the IKEA things are incidental items in the kitchen. One dollar apiece soup bowls. Oh, that classic Pooang chair. Comfortable (but for me these days with the knee issues, hard to get out of).

Rather than hiring a moving company, I ferried everything up to this house in 1) my car, trip after trip as I cleaned and sorted through things – yes a SUV but a SUV is practical for a putative farmer. Or, 2) three U-Haul rentals, with hired people to help at the loading end, and friends to help at the destination end. I gave one of those friends at the destination end a mahogany chest of drawers and an easy chair I’d loved (once my grandmother’s) because neither would fit in here, and this friend really needed these items. And I know she’s the type to use and appreciate. I was going to need to clean and sort things regardless.

I have to admit, over the years, I have spent a LOT of money on books and music. I have no intention of getting any music subscription service – the stuff they have under any category is ultimately BLAND within any of those categories. I have made my own mixes, both on CD and on the ancient iPod I still have that somehow still works.

I admit, just building a house is a splurge – no way around it. But I do my balancing act.

Many of us will find our own balances. Does the above make me thrifty? I know I could do a lot more, but I’m not looking for titles, after all. I'm not altogether "thrifty" after all.

I do want to learn to be more thrifty, of course.

Kind of. Being frugal is deeply ingrained because that's how I grew up. My husband and I live within our means, but there are some areas where we spend plenty -- food / drink / travel (FWIW gettingnowhere - we try to never waste food. you should see the creations my husband makes with leftovers). We don't really care about nice cars, clothes, fancy jewelry or constantly upgrading our gadgets. Our house was well within our budget, and we wanted it to be kind of small so it doesn't take a ton of energy to run.

Part of these choices is because we're simply not fancy, and part of it is out of trying to do better for the environment. one tiny example, re: the dryer sheet discussion above: I don't buy them because I'm allergic to most perfumes, and I literally do not need dryer sheets or fabric softener. I also rarely buy anything that needs to be dry cleaned (bad chemicals, plus laziness -- I can't be bothered). things like that shape my decisions, and often it happens to cost less too.

Hamiltongardener, I'm not defending Uber eats, but I wonder what the difference is between me ordering something (a coffee for one or a burger for one) and having it delivered vs. me getting in my car and driving to Starbucks for a coffee for one? I'd never use a service like that, but cannot wrap my head around why it would be different?

I don't understand why some of you, who suggest your spending patterns are carefully controlled because of having limited means or a personal orientation to do so, want to condemn or view with contempt or disbelief practices of others who conduct themselves differently.

We used too be frugal. It meant doling out our resources to gain the best value and not buying and consuming things of little merit. It also meant not having some of the things that others took for granted. It was the choice that we made.

Now, after almost seven decades of life, and with the crushing realities of the world, I view any and all material possessions with a more critical eye. It is not that I need to be frugal anymore, but my values have changed so much that I find material possessions to be so empty and meaningless. It is no longer a matter of frugality, now it is all about meaning and a great deal about environmental issues , as well. I want nothing more than what I have and I want even less of that.

I see so much lack of real value or meaning in the dominant consuming culture that I have been steeped in all of my life. Now, I look back and it all seems so ignorant and vapid.

Frugality took a back seat to what is now a crushing reality of how meaningless it all was anyway.

HG your comment reminded me of someone who posted on our local FB group who wanted to know what delivery to use to get a hotdog. I just shook my head. Even if I had such a craving and didn't have wienies in the house, I'd substitute or do without, instead of paying $3 or whatever delivery fee on a single dog.

Eastern Canadian provinces get our milk in a bag. I absolutely love it. There are 3 clear bags inside a larger outer bag. These clear bags are so sturdy! I freeze a multitude of things in them.......black beans, 6 drumsticks, frozen fruit, rhubarb, my portions of pie pastry. I always wash them out and save them. I've never bought ziploc bags, ever. If I want to bread chicken, or marinate something, I use the outer bag. I also slice and freeze my homemade bread; again using the outer bag.

having it delivered vs. me getting in my car and driving to Starbucks for a coffee for one

2 reasons.

First, because most people will either make coffee at home because they are still in their pyjamas, too lazy, etc. But if they can pick up the phone and have it delivered, that’s easy so they do. Plus, no disposable cup if you make it at home. And if you go there yourself, you can use a reusable cup. That can’t be done with an Uber driver.

Second, even if you do hop in the car, you drive there, and back. The delivery driver is not like the pizza delivery of old. He is not employed by the coffee shop so he does not drive straight line and back. He drives from a third location to get to the coffee shop, then to your house, then back again. If he has even a 30% longer drive than your straight there and back, that’s more traffic congestion, more gas used multiplied by the number of deliveries that Uber, door dash, etc do every day. It adds up...a lot.

I know of a good report on why Uber (taxi type service) actually causes more traffic on the road instead of reducing it like we thought it would. Let me see if I can find it.