Are we headed for another shut-down?

Annegriet

Just curious what folks are thinking? I haven't been hoarding toilet paper or groceries. The rates are going up everywhere. I'm just curious where you guys think we are heading. You guys are thoughtful and always have well-thought opinions.

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Lindsey_CA

My personal, probably unpopular, opinion is that we need to get serious about a shutdown - stay home, order as much to be delivered as possible, only go out when necessary and always wear a mask when away from home. That's the only way to get the numbers going down instead of up.

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donna_loomis

I do think we're headed in that direction. But I also think that as a whole, we have figured out that there's no reason to hoard.

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terilyn

I think it depends on where you are. Some states are skyrocketing, others are going down. We can’t shut down the country for certain states.

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Bookwoman

I think it's the opposite: we shouldn't have opened up as much as we have simply because a few states are doing well. Except for a handful of states in the northeast, the whole country is doing badly: http://covidexitstrategy.org

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wildchild2x2

Only if your Governor and local Public Health Departments push for it. Despite anything being promoted it is still a state issue and locally enforced, or not.


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Elmer J Fudd

The Washington Post provides daily stats derived from public health reporting. There are 4 states that have shown minor decreases for new cases of the last 7 days, 46 show increases. The increases are substantial for many of them. Scroll down to the stats by states, open the whole chart and click on the percentage columnar heading to see a ranking.

It's a state-only issue with the continuing vacuum and lack of federal action. Hopefully that will be over soon, and shouldn't depend on the election results.


National Covid stats

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Iris S (SC, Zone 7b)

I am not hoarding toilet paper, but since it was so stressful in Spring, I am going to make sure not to go under 12 rolls or so. Pretty much the only time I go out is grocery shopping. They already removed the one way signs in the aisles, so dodging others has become more difficult. They showed really long lines for the voting today on the news. No social distancing and a bunch of people without masks. I am in Greenville County, seems numbers here never went down in the first place.

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cooper8828

I'm in New Mexico and we keep breaking daily records for both case counts and hospitalizations. We reopened a little and cases shot right up. I personally think my state is headed for another shutdown. I have stocked up (not hoarded) on some things and still use curbside pickup for most everything.

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stacey_mb

Here in Manitoba, the center of Canada, our infection rates were pretty good but they have been going up dramatically. People just aren't taking the virus seriously and are still gathering in groups and disregarding health risks. Now there are more restrictions and masks are mandatory when going into any public building. In addition, no gatherings of more than 5 people are permitted. Yesterday at the library and today at a restaurant, my name and phone number were recorded for contact tracing purposes. As health experts have been saying, more serious illness and hospitalization is a stress on the entire health care system and affects everyone. Edited for correction: phone number, not address was recorded.

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blfenton

Conspiracy is saying that paper towels will be hoarded rather than TP. Two of my sisters still have TP remaining from their springtime hoarding.

Paper towels are being used at many service industries (gyms, hair salons, etc) for use by clients.

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Lucille

I have not yet ended my first shut down.

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maifleur03

I posted over in HT that for the world to even slow the virus to allow the countries to handle it there needs to be a strong lockdown with penalties. I look at the various Ebola outbreaks in Africa as a method that should be followed without the shooting on sight that some countries did. The lockdown needs to have severe penalties attached so that people realize that the government is serious. Will it happen, probably not but until it does people need to be prepared with at least a months worth of food in their homes. If it would happen then lines would be long or there would be little or no advanced warning. Be prepared for a lot more people to die or be left with permanent health problems. I believe that our society has reached one of those times of major social change. Some have been good others are not what anyone wants to read about. There will be scapegoats as the anger builds. Seldom are they ones that have anything to do with the social destruction.

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Kathsgrdn

I think they need to but it may be too late. It is everywhere, nearly 2000 new cases (that they know of) today in Kentucky and that's huge for a Saturday. Still, when I go into stores here, there are people who aren't wearing masks, even though it's mandated. Maybe it's a good thing gardening season is nearly over, won't have to go back to Tractor Supply for months now and I will just continue buying my groceries online and having them delivered.

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Lars

Relegating the shutdowns to the states is like playing whack-a-mole - not very smart, based on where it's gotten us so far. If the entire nation had shut down early in the pandemic, then the entire nation could have recovered very quickly, but when the rules are different from state to state, then the states with loose rules will suddenly have high infection rates while states with high infection rates that impose strict rules will have rates go down - temporarily - until they they reinfected by the states that have loose rules.

People need to be willing to make temporary sacrifices for the good of the entire country instead of dividing the country up into feuding states with motley rules. A united approach will work much better than a segmented approach, and it will work much more quickly.

I don't understand the logic of pitting state against state. A united approach is what is needed. Some of these lessons take time to learn, and the longer they take, the more painful they will be.

We are somewhat short on paper towels, but there are plenty of good substitutes for paper towels - especially sponges, and we have plenty of those. I also have plenty of cloth dish towels and other cloths towels, as well as fabrics that can be made into towels.

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glenda_al

Think it is going to be necessary

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terilyn

Lars. I wasn’t trying to put state against state. Just going by what has been done so far.

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Lukki Irish

I’m with Lucille, we haven’t ended with the first shut down, my family and I have been following the same protective measures we were advised to do months ago. If we could just have a nationwide mandatory mask mandate (a wear it or be fined kind of mandate) get ample testing everywhere and spread tracking, we wouldn’t have to deal with a shut down. Of course that means that super spreader events would need to stop too.

RE Paper towels: A few years ago, we bought a bulk pack of white bar tender towels from Sams or Costco to use instead for spills and messes. We keep a small hamper for them in the pantry and I wash them once a week. They come in so handy, and we’ve saved a lot of money on paper towels as a result.

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drewsmaga

Not in FL. We never really shut down in the first place. Note: Disney has been opened here in central FL for 4/5 weeks? No "SUPER spreader" events. The attractions here are hitting capacity on weekends. Disney in CA is still closed. Why?

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Bookwoman

Perhaps because CA reports accurate statistics: https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-coronavirus-positivity-rate-florida-explainer-20201014-tfho3kvw7jaabmlv2d7gwndgii-story.html

Florida has obscured the true extent of its COVID-19 pandemic by using a misleading measure of positive cases to justify reopening schools and businesses, state data indicates.

While Florida has publicized that its “positivity rate” has regularly fallen below 5%, other health organizations are publishing data that shows the rate may be dramatically higher.

Independent experts, including Johns Hopkins University, consistently list Florida’s positivity rate at 10% or higher, twice the recommended level for widespread reopening.

Florida itself calculates another version of the rate — not widely publicized — that shows the pandemic is worse than state officials have championed. Those figures show that the rate has never fallen to the 5% threshold, the South Florida Sun Sentinel discovered.

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morz8

We're not doing anything any differently than we've been doing all year. Still masking, staying mostly at home, participating in no groups.

I was listening to Dr. Brix this last week and she was saying the restaurants, hair salons etc have just about gotten it right. The spread isn't taking place in those types of settings. It's groups of young people and families letting their guard down and socializing. It's the people getting together with other people they know and trust, and now moving inside with it getting cooler.

Other than a plumber in May and a handyman in August (half day each), no one has been in our house. We've had driveway company, and in bad weather garage company with the car door open for air exchange.

Dr. Fauci did suggest recently (and I think for the first time) it might be time for a national mask mandate. He thought it could save lives.

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kadefol

We currently have 20 covid patients at our smallish hospital, 10 in the
ICU. Which means there is no room for anyone else who needs ICU
treatment for acute illness or emergency. They will have to be taken to
the city, which is over an hour away. There are new cases every day, and
increasing. And people STILL refuse to mask up, and they continue to
attend church and have parties and gatherings without masks/social
distancing, just like everything is normal. And quite a few we know are
planning large family celebrations for Thanksgiving and Christmas. It is
very discouraging.

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drewsmaga

Bookwoman: OK, Who's "data" are you gunna go with? The "Talking Heads" or the people out on the streets. "Experts" can site both sides and manipulate "statistics." . . . . I live in central FL. Our county stats come out EVERY day and for the past few weeks our death rate is consistanltly 0.02. The Positive "Infection" rate is irrerlevant. My 38 yr. old DIL got it 6 weeks ago (after being in a strictly masked and ridiculously restrictions demanded to open Vet practice in CO) and she said it was like a bad cold, never got a temp over 100 and lost her senses of taste and smell. Her hubs, at 50 tested positive and NEVER HAD ANY SYMYOMS, They figure their toddler child probably had it too -- no symptoms. And their "buggy" kid went to babysitter with other kids and no one had a heart attack about that -- and she wasn't a "SUPER spreader" There's the scare stuff coming out at MSM and then there's real life. Does the "positivity" rate mean anything? Not in my son's family.

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olychick

drewsmaga- tell that to the 220,000 plus people who have died! How lucky your family was that they survived!

And quite frankly, if no one in your county is doing contact tracing, you have no idea who is a super spreader and who is not.

It's the faux news spreading misinformation about the virus and its spread; them and the ignorant gov't officials who won't tell the truth for fear of reprisals by dear leader. They are sacrificing the citizens and essential workers for their messed up optics.

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morz8

I'm glad your son's family was so fortunate, that's not the case for 2,296 families in this state in their real life. Our health dept reported today:

919 new COVID-19 cases, and 27 additional hospitalizations. As of today - Saturday, there are 102,264 COVID-19 cases, 8,258 hospitalizations and 2,296 deaths counted here (Washington state).

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Elmer J Fudd

According to the data in Wash Po, Florida had a 16% increase in daily cases over the last 7 days, which puts it at a #26 ranking for case increases in the last 7 days. I know nothing about whether Florida is fudging on the numbers it reports or not but if so, then the situation there could be considerably worse.

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Richard (Vero Beach, Florida)

I've been in a grocery twice since March.

The first time was Walmart's senior hour right after they instated a mask policy for employees. Many employees were either not wearing masks or were wearing them on their chins. Not to mention the customers. Compliance was low enough that I said never again.

But I gave it another try after they started staying open until 10:00 PM. By this time Walmart had instated a mask mandate for everyone, even customers. I think employee compliance was quite good by that time but customer compliance was only about 50%. Again, I said never again.

If they ever return to 24 hours... I might try again. Vero suddenly becomes dead after 10 or 11 PM.

It seems that whenever I pick up a curbside order, the employees are always masked. (Even the ones retrieving carts with no one around) However, despite the "stay in your car and leave your window rolled up" instructions, I often see folks get out of their cars wearing no mask, and (spit?) talk right into the faces of the masked employees. It's been eight months and we still can't get N95s? Those employees need N95s to protect themselves from the customers.

I've pretty much decided this thing is not going to be over for quite a while and the only one I can trust to protect me is... me. So I stay home, except for curbside pickups.

They were publishing how many kids were being sent home from school to quarantine but I don't see that they're doing that now. I wonder why. https://www.tcpalm.com/news/indian-river-county/

I suspect rates "might" go down this winter. Up north, winter drives people inside to the dry heated air with no ventilation. In Florida, it's backward. In the summer the heat drives folks indoors to the dry cooled air with no ventilation. In the winter, folks spend more time outside, getting sunshine and fresh air. Maybe rates will go down, maybe not. Either way, I'll wait it out.

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lily316

PA is going the wrong way. We are over 2000 cases a day now, double what they had been. I go to three places a week for very brief trips, Aldi, our large grocery chain and to pick up library books. Everyone is always masked at the places I go to. But the cavalier attitude of many people will keep this virus strong way into 2021 and maybe even longer experts say.

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arcy_gw

I don't think our Economy could with stand it, so I hope not. I also think it depends on whose elected. Masks and social distancing is the key to the long fight. We really do have to learn how to live with this not put off what is inevitable. From the beginning no one said we were saving lives they said we were flattening the curve--spreading the infection spread out over time. A treatment is coming. Maybe a vaccine but I think that will be longer if we want to be sure of its safety. We are in the middle of history folks and only hind sight will be 20/20!!

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sal 60 Hanzlik

What I don't understand is why is it so so difficult to wear a mask. I read where two beauticians had covid and did 139 customers== the beauticians wore masks and not one of the customers tested positive. Shows that masks matter.

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Annie Deighnaugh

What's most frustrating is that masks have become politicized when the virus knows no politics. Instead we have ND having the highest acquisition rates in the world, and many other states facing rapidly escalating cases with hospitals filled to capacity...exactly where the northeast was back in March/April. A number of studies have been done showing that tens of thousands of lives can be saved if everyone just wore a mask. IMO, if you can wear pants, you can wear a mask. Neither impinge on your personal freedoms, but both expect you to respect others in the community.

Unfortunately, even with masking, our rates are starting to pick up again as schools reopen and people suffer covid fatigue and get less vigilant. The experts warned us that with colder weather, we'd see rates pick up again, and now we are.

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Jasdip

In my city and area people are masking. It's extremely rare I see someone out and about without a mask.

We're open, but parts of the Toronto area are back to a Level 2, gyms closed, no indoor dining, etc. Levels are very high there. A spin class infected a bunch of people.

A journalist wrote an article about flying to Toronto from NY and the mandatory self-isolation. She was looking out the window from her hotel room and was astounded at the people not masking and not social distancing. Coming from NY and knowing the numbers she says that Canada is lucky, but people need to take it seriously.

A real-life friend who lives in another province wrote to me this week saying she got it. I immediately asked her what it's like, as I don't know anyone.

She's young, in her early 30's and recently had a baby. She did lose her sense of taste and smell but it also attacks your mind. Congestion, major migraines, lungs hurt.....everything is in waves, she feels fine for 1/2 hour then feels awful for an hour. She said her mind feels like its depleted of serotonin. Her friend who got it 6 months ago is still getting help because her symptoms are still present, she feels like her brain is fried.

It's the long-term effects that no one knows, that's worrisome. Your organs and brain are affected long-term, I've read.

For the first time ever, I got a flu shot. Our pharmacies have been out of the shot for weeks, and not sure when they'll get any in. Everyone wants the heavy-duty one that's for seniors and at-risk people. They ran out of that one in a hurry.

I was in Costco with a friend early last week and there was a table set up for flu shots. I filled out the form and asked for the low-dose. He asked my age, and said that one would be fine. I got it then and there. My friend needs the super dose and he said they'd be in on that Thursday and to come at 9:30 so she did, and got it.

The following day I was in our chain pharmacy and the note on the door said they were out and no idea when they'd get any in.

So, Canadians, if you need a flu shot, go to Costco.

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jim_1 (Zone 9A)

I live in west central Florida (3 miles from The Gulf) and our county of less than 200,000 started slow, then the numbers went up fast and are now slowing down again. However, you compare that to the county where Tampa is and their numbers are increasing rapidly (much, much higher population).

Our 55+ community of more than 3400 homes is one of the largest ones in our part of the state. This month, so far, there have been 19 reported new cases. Not too bad when one considers the age thing. Golfers are still on our three 18-hole courses and the pools are open, there is food service in the club house, bocce, pickleball and tennis are OK; however no other organized activities like yoga, bridge, book club, etc.

I leave the house once a week for food/beverage; and, unfortunately many medical appointments. I have books held for me at the library and get in and get out once a week. And I always wear my mask (except in the dentist's chair this week) and keep washing the 4 masks that I have.

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Raye Smith

Officials told people with the "things will only be closed for a few weeks, long enough to allow hospitals to prepare" turned into keeping things closed months causing large numbers of business failures, huge numbers of unemployment and caused the closure of rural hospitals. As the song goes "We won't be fooled again". Even Europe with higher numbers is not doing wide spread closures.

Checked the nearest large university number of cases and they are still gong down. Now it's less that 100 cases in a population of >20,000.

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Jasdip

A new thing has been happening. Some local restaurants are asking for ID to show that you live in the area......say a 25km radius of the restaurant.

This is to deter people from Covid-hit areas driving out of town to eat. As an example when Toronto went back to take-out only dining, a local restaurant got a reservation for 20 people to come here and celebrate.

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nickel_kg

Will there be shortages of any particular products? There will always be days-long shortages of bread & milk with snow events, we all laugh about that. For the vast majority of other products, manufacturers have had time to react to covid-induced changes in buying habits so I'm not overly worried. It's a good idea for every household (that can afford it) to have enough food & products on hand to last a month, regardless of weather, pandemics, earthquakes, etc.

For Covid-19, it amazes me how many people are willing to play Russian Roulette -- sure, you might get lucky when it's your turn, but someone's going to get unlucky. Even a small percentage of a country's population is a big number.

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llucy

Like many others, my state (OH) is seeing record covid numbers day after day this month. When asked if there will be another shut down, our governor says he doesn't believe it will be necessary because Ohioans will pull together to do the right thing. His data attributes majority of community spread this month to informal gatherings of family and friends.

When I go to a store/business I see most people wearing masks. There is no way to know how cautious/careless they are when they are with their family & friends out of public view however. Pessimistically, I don't expect the virus stats to slow until maybe sometime in January. I don't see the gov issuing another stay-at-home order unless the hospitals become overwhelmed Even then, I'm skeptical about the level of compliance.

We still have plenty of stockpiles of food & supplies from March and replenishment since. I'm not as worried about supply chain disruptions as I was 6-8 months ago. It just seems sensible to me to have enough basics for a couple months "just in case" of unforeseen circumstances.

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nicole___

I don't think it will happen. People aren't cooperating "now".

My neighbor, I said hello to yesterday...ran up to me, hugged me, kissed me on the cheek.

My other neighbors are gathering in groups at the lodge....even tho we were ALL sent an email saying we don't have covid insurance. ALL meetings at the lodge have been cancelled.

In lieu of breaking the existing rules...a shutdown would not keep stupid behavior from happening.

I did go buy 48 cans of cat food. 50 pink puffy balls. 80lbs cat litter, just in case.....

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bluetexas

I don't think we'll have a nationwide shutdown, but if we do, I still have toilet paper that I stocked up in March.

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schoolhouse_gwagain

I have an appt. Monday afternoon to get the oil changed in my car. This is my favorite garage with owner and mechanics I trust. But.....they do not wear masks - owner and others behind the counter or mechanics (that I could see). At least this was the case in June when I had an appt. I waited outside with my mask on. One employee did bring me a chair and sprayed it with disinfect first.

He said the oil change Monday will take 45min. to an hour, did I want to wait at the garage or drop the car off and come back. I asked about the waiting room and social distancing. He assured me their waiting room was more than adequate. Not his exact words but something to that effect.

It's a popular, busy garage with lots of comings and goings of mechanics and customers. I really don't have means to get home and come back if I drop off the car. What to do? Sit outside in chilly weather for an hour?

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nickel_kg

LOL nicole, I've NEVER been a huggy/touchy person so I'd NEVER welcome anyone other than DH or DD hugging me/kissing my cheek ... but in this day and age I'd body-block anyone else getting that close to me! (Your circumstances may legitimately vary; it just made me laugh.)

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Annie Deighnaugh

schoolhouse, if you can't get a neighbor to give you a ride, then I'd dress for the weather and wait outside...bring your own folding chair if you must. I certainly wouldn't hang around a waiting room for that long when they're not being careful about masking...and I doubt about sanitizing. But, IMO, the most dangerous is being inside with other people where the heat systems are recirculating air that could be full of virus. No mask is going to protect you from that...it's why I won't eat inside at a restaurant.

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Annie Deighnaugh

A Finnish 3-D simulation of how a single maskless cough can transmit aerosolized droplets much further than 6'...here simulated in grocery store.

So please wear a mask.

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Lukki Irish

Do you HAVE to do the oil now Schoolhouse? I mean, if you’re not driving a lot and you’re just at the point of needing it, would it be possible to wait until you do have the means for a ride?

The place I go to allows you to sit in the car while they change the oil. Maybe that’s an option?

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Lukki Irish

Officials told people with the "things will only be closed for a few weeks, long enough to allow hospitals to prepare" turned into keeping things closed months causing large numbers of business failures, huge numbers of unemployment and caused the closure of rural hospitals. As the song goes "We won't be fooled again". Even Europe with higher numbers is not doing wide spread closures.

I (respectfully) disagree. First, Europe has not taken that option off the table. Secondly, the reason the shut down lasted as long as it did, is because our government amongst other things, chose to shed the responsibility of a response out to each state. Other countries were able to contain covid without a prolonged shut down because they followed the science and their mandates were national not by Province or State. If we had done the same, if EVERYONE was following the same set of guidelines, if testing had been promptly provided and tracing quickly put into place, we would not have had to close down indefinately. We have the federal government to thank for the mess we’re in. If we have to choose between lives saved vs a shut down, I’ll vote for a shut down anytime.

We can’t even get every one on board with wearing a mask , so good luck with herd immunity.

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chisue

Yes, I see a nationwide lockdown/curfews coming -- too late for the many who could have been spared this spring, but in time to perhaps spare me and mine. We are all masking and taking precautions. If only others would do for us as we do for them (and ourselves).

We are fortunate to live in an affluent community with a highly educated, socially conscious population. Stores instituted mask rules in March; the culturalization period was minimal. This is not the case throughout our county, though, and large swaths of it are already at the 8% increase in positives that will start the graduated shut-downs in each designated section of Illinois.

Illinois instituted the groupings to avoid shutdowns throughout the whole state when only certain areas are blooming with Covid, but the sections are still huge and diverse. Our county (north of Chicago) is one of the most socially and economically diverse in the US. Many residents of my small town can afford to shelter in place while residents in other areas must go out to work -- and many are newly dependent on welfare and charity.


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olychick

Re: cases in colleges: Not all colleges are as "lucky" as the one referred to previously in this thread. If you hit a paywall to see this, just open an incognito/private browsing page and I think you can view it.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-college-cases-tracker.html

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Annie Deighnaugh

It's not the shutdown that's the problem...it's the virus spreading that's the problem. And if you can stop the virus from spreading rapidly, then you can re-open. So the focus first, last and always should be on limiting the virus' spread. That's how you get things to re-open. Not the reverse.

For example, our gym has announced that someone there tested positive. But because the infection rates are so low, they are able to contact trace, quarantine those who were exposed, clean the place and keep it open safely.

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girlnamedgalez8a

We need a national mask mandate now. Unfortunately we will not get one before late January at the earliest. It is hard to imagine what it will be like by that time.

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ci_lantro

33 states have mask mandates now.

https://www.aarp.org/health/healthy-living/info-2020/states-mask-mandates-coronavirus.html


You can mandate until the cows come home but, if you don't have widespread compliance, it won't work. And there is nothing like telling people that they MUST do X because 'government says so' to guarantee a whole lot of resistance. Not arguing, just stating the reality of it.





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foggyj2

I'll throw my two cents in here....There are rules in place, such as, "no shirt, no shoes, no service!". You never hear of men arguing over whether or not they have to wear a shirt. You never see anyone walking around a store, barefoot. Those are rules that people seem to be ok with. So why the conflict over wearing a mask, or not? something that will protect health. Why do people have such a problem with that "rule".? "Taking away my rights"!! If there were a mandate, which started out to be in many of our establishments around here, would you want to be the person standing at the door to enforce the mask rule? ...and be sworn at, spit on, etc.? It's a no win situation. Never under estimate the lack of intelligence of humans.

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schoolhouse_gwagain

Annie, I'm definitely having thoughts of canceling. Just awhile ago I called my aunt and she informed me that her granddaughter has tested positive for COVID. The granddaughter works at a restaurant as a waitress and the owners, husband and wife, had tested positive too. ugh. The granddaughter is getting better.

So my cousin (her son) and family are all in quarantine. They live appx. 10 houses down the road from me. I asked my aunt if the restaurant was closed but she didn't know for sure. It's one of a major chain of restaurants.

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Annie Deighnaugh

schoolhouse, we put very little mileage on our cars these days and we don't get the oil changed until we've put on an additional 5-6,000 miles so you may not even need to get the oil changed yet.

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maifleur03

My car states months and mileage. By months it is way past mileage I have only put 600 on it since the last oil change. If it is just the oil change I would not worry. However if you park outside what should be checked is your antifreeze and tire inflation.

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Kathsgrdn

I've told my kids we probably won't be having Christmas here. Too much virus everywhere and I don't want to contribute to it's spread. 1462 cases today in Kentucky. It's depressing.

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schoolhouse_gwagain

The garage always has my car on a schedule for an oil change by a certain date or a certain number of miles via the little sticker in the upper corner of the front windshield. All the fluids are checked, tires, etc. My car doesn't sit outside thank goodness.

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bragu_DSM 5

shutdown => economic suicide

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wildchild2x2

We use synthetic oil in our vehicles. Tire pressure is simple enough to check but newer vehicles do it for you if tires aren't evenly inflated. I am from the school of thought that every able bodied person who drives should be able to do basic things like fluid checks, tire pressure and be able to change a tire on their vehicles. Oil changes we go both ways. If we are lazy we take it in, if not we do it at home. DH used to do it all. I do more now since I am more physically fit. I also invested less than 25.00 each on a code scanner to keep in each vehicle. Pays for itself and more the first time that check engine light comes on.


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jemdandy

Regarding the original question;

The state of Wisconsin has gone out of control. The number of cases are spiking above that of a month ago. The virus has invaded the Native American population. They are prevalent in a couple of counties NW of Oshkosh. Who controls what is nebulous at the moment, but the election is next week, and I expect there will be more decisive direction taken after we know who our elected officials are. I don't expect a complete shut-down, but expect some stringent controls made state-wide, not county by county. I hope that some of the silly court cases fade away, particularly the ones that were obviously politically concocted.

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arkansas girl

I think they will just get more strict on the rules they have in place already. If they shut things down again like they did at first, there will be so many businesses that will just throw their hands up and shut down for good. And really, what good did that do...we can't stay shut down forever and that's what it would take. Remember all this started with one guy in China!

But, I got some TP and paper towels so I'm ready if they do! HA!

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Raye Smith

bragu_DSM 5

shutdown => economic suicide

That's so true that I repeated it!

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sleeperblues

I agree with Mai that a national mask mandate will do no good unless it's strictly enforced with heavy fines. I live in Wisconsin and our cases are off the charts. Almost 5000 one day last week, and every day more deaths and hospitalizations. And yet, when I have to run out, there are always about 10% of people in stores unmasked.

I don't think there will be a shutdown, at least not here. Everything our governor tries to do is stymied. Lawsuit after lawsuit. For the elections in April all but 3 polling places in Milwaukee for "safety" reasons were shut down, yet certain politicians were telling constituents how safe it was to vote. Yet one (Robin Vos) showed up at the polling places in a full hazmat suit. What a hypocrite!!

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Lukki Irish

PLEASE NOTE: IF YOU DON’T WANT THE AUTO MODERATING TOOL TO DELETE THIS THREAD, THEN CHOOSE YOUR WORDS WISELY. Please try to use an initial of a specific party or name or spell it in a way that will avoid it getting caught. These debates are so important, it would be a shame if they got censored.

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beesneeds

I think shutdowns are going to keep happening.. and keep not being kept to. In general, Americans are selfish and in the habit of doing what they want as they want. A good example is right here in this thread. The HT area has gotten so bad that Houzz is removing it entirely from the site- but because we want to keep talking HT's here, we are doing so, and even suggesting how to avoid the mods so we can just keep on doing what we want to do... regardless of what the rulers of this site are mandating or the removal an entire section from the site due to our behaviors.

Same goes for shutdowns. Some folks can deal with the restrictions... but many want to do as they want, and will go around the rules or mandates as they feel like it to do as they like. Shutdowns and mask mandates only work as well as the people participating, and work as poorly as people not participating.

I think it's going to get worse. We are entering flu and other sickness season with the cold weather, plus upticks of C-19 in many places. In a week or so, we will be going from political unrest to truly upset, regardless on who all wins the various elections going on. Many folks are already entering X-mas phase with it's shopping habits and hostility for the couple months before Christmas.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom, but I haven't seen much out of news, media, and social platforms to give me much hopefulness that our society is going to be kind or goodly about illness any time soon. It's rather unfortunate.

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sephia_wa

"Remember all this started with one guy in China!"

Please cite your source of information.

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petalique

I hear your point, sleeper. Also Lukki’s excellent suggestion. Maybe you could edit your post a bit and creatively re-spell or abbreviate.


We don’t venture out much, but always wear a well-fitted mask, keep distance 6-12 ft., don’t dally (no browsing), pre-order when possible, keeps hands away from face, take hand with us. <—— You can buy or recycle very small squeeze squirt like bottles, fill them w hand sanitizer and these will fit in a pocket or purse. (Be sure to label & keep them away from young children.)

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petalique

Someone gave me a bunch of already cut out fabric, elastic, “filter” material, and pattern, so I stitched up my first home-stitch face mask. I used some of that green rubber covered wire for plants and crafts for the nose piece. That stuff is perfect, with the right flexibility. It was easy Peasy to stitch a mask together and very rewarding. I have lots of tightly woven 100% cotton quilting fabric of all colors and patterns. I’ll send some to nephews’ family and give the rest away. I may take a few (cleaned and in a zip-lock bag to offer to any unmasked.

I’ll try to make some attractive child masks to give away when I take my boxes of groceries to a food pantry.

I would like to see everyone wear a well-fitted 😷 mask. I would like to see more educational, fun creative and persuasive public service spots on various platforms. It would be helpful if “leaders” and shapers of public opinion set a wise example.

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artemis_ma

I live in a small rural town whose incidence rates since the beginning has been ZERO. But from what I hear from a friend is that two of her friends are sick - which could just be the flu, but they're being tested for the Virus du Jour. I will know by Thursday, when the next statewide results are listed.

How I am living today: I mask around other people and I use paper towels to handle everything at the gas pumps. I do not use masks when I walk on the roads around here - it's rural. And if I happen to run into another walker, we both stay on opposite sides of the road.

I have plenty of food here - I simply hated to begin with driving 35-40 minutes into the nearest town with a supermarket to buy a few needs and turn around to drive that back. And I grew plenty of my own veggies, and I joined Misfits Market last winter through the recommendations of the Cooking Forum. (I canceled it for most of summer, since between my own stuff and local farmer's markets I was covered.) It's my pet and poultry needs - and having to bring my nearly-19 year old cat to the vet for her elderly needs - that's why I shop.


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sleeperblues

I edited it, hope it helps keeps this discussion here. Just frustrated.

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artemis_ma

PS, please don't make this thread po lit i cal. This is useful to talk about how we are all doing/not doing things, and what our regional geographic areas are like these days. How we are each choosing or needing to live right now... Thanks.

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Raye Smith

I was just reading an article in the WSJ about an expected extra 10,000 cancer deaths expected in the next 10 years. They are due to cancers not being caught at a treatable stage and delayed treatment for current oncology patients during the lock-downs. There are consequences to lock-downs much more difficult that not going on a shopping spree.

If you really want a good picture of what long term lock-downs result in, look up what's happening in South America. No food, no meds, completely bare store shelves and so on.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Aww. I've been flagged by ostriches again. Poor dears. They can't handle truth.

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kadefol

Covid hospitalizations in Utah and some other states are so high that, in a week or two, they are expecting to start making treatment decisions based on age. I really don’t agree with the idea that older people are expendable, so if a shutdown would prevent those measures I am all for it.

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maifleur03

It may not just be age but those with disabilities including children if a hospital takes them. This will only get worse. To me while some of it is definitely political it is a reflection of peoples personal morals. People have always been more concerned about those that they think are their equals and less likely to help the lesser. The ones with more have been considered to be more able to take care of themselves even when sickness hits everyone. If and that is a big if people realize that they too can be affected perhaps not medically but socially perhaps the virus will be seen less of others get it and it is fine that they die. The "good ones" only have it lightly seems to be a rallying cry not to do anything.

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stacey_mb

Our cases here in Manitoba are rapidly increasing and our Chief Medical Officer was calling out examples of shocking behavior that are contributing to the problem - someone tested positive and then had a house party; someone had symptoms and went to work for a week, then visited a personal care home, etc. I just shake my head! It is not rocket science to get the numbers down.

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Kathsgrdn

One of the worst Mondays here for new cases in KY. Apparently the state took a resident of another state, that is 2 states away from us (they didn't say which one), because they had no hospital beds and none in adjacent states were available either. Our capacity is okay for now but won't be for long.

They are looking at about half a million dead by February.

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sephia_wa

I read four days ago that hospitals in Idaho are almost at capacity and they may be sending Covid patients to Portland and Seattle. Hope no one needs to go to the hospital in those cities.

"Hospitals across the country are starting to buckle from the resurgence, with several states setting records for the number of people hospitalized and leaders scrambling to find extra beds and staff. New highs in cases have been reported in states big and small — from Idaho to Ohio — in recent days."

"Idaho’s governor has not made a statewide requirement for masks." You think maybe you should?

Source

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arcy_gw

Full hospitals was sort of caused by the shut down. Here and other States hospitals have gone bankrupt because they were forced to JUST wait and wait and do nothing while COVID patients didn't come or came in numbers that did not sustain them. People do not understand the full impact of rolling back capitalism through things like a shut down.

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Raye Smith

Yes arcy_gw - Here the case levels have been one hospitalization in April, one in May, none in June. So during the lock-down they had a total of two patients, no way an empty hospital can survive.

The counties here are fairly large so when our one hospital closes that could mean a two hour plus drive for some to get to a hospital in the next county.

For the state our ICU's are less than half full so not anywhere near crisis levels.

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Annie Deighnaugh

WSJ about an expected extra 10,000 cancer deaths expected in the next 10 years...

Let's keep this in perspective...about 10,000 people have died of covid in the past 10 *days*, not years.

It took us about 4 months to reach the first million cases of covid ... we've done as much in the last 3 weeks.

That's what exponential growth looks like....that's what unchecked spreading of the disease does.

While shutting down may lead to economic disruption...

staying open => death

...and then only question becomes whose. You? Your parents? Grandparents? Children? Grandchildren? Friends? Neighbors?

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Annie Deighnaugh

And ask yourself how many people are dying now because the hospitals are full, the ICUs are full and critically ill people can't get the help they need, hospitals can't get the personnel they need...some are facing into rationing which means the elderly will be left to die while they try to save the younger ones.

If we can squelch the spread of the disease, we can keep hospitals open and available for all the regular medical services and keep ICUs open for the few who need it. Everyone benefits.

And the costs are so incredibly low to do that: wear a mask, stay physically distant, wash your hands.

It's downright criminal that people aren't compliant as they are literally responsible for the illness and death of others *and* the disruption to the economy.

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abzzybee

At this point I don't see what a good pivot point could possibly be for there to be a change in the approach government has taken to the pandemic. Like Annie D says, mask up, practice distancing, wash hands and be considerate to others. Right now it's "your" personal responsibility to take care of yourself and yours.

I am grateful for the people here as you all help me stay grounded and keep me positive day by day.

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nicole___

Masks here in Colorado are mandatory. I've not seen anyone without a mask in a store. 100% compliant!

My neighbors are gathering, walking together.....ALL WITHOUT masks. The house across the street was working to get it ready to sell. Workers coming and going...NONE wearing masks. My husband reports that none of the job site construction workers are wearing masks. I had the local radio station on. The announcer said everything is returning to normal. ?????

Restaurants are setting up outdoor tents with heaters. ??? How is that compliant?

Numbers are rising here.

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maifleur03

Along with the half of a million people dying mentioned by Kathsgarden, which I think is too low of an amount, the question then begins to be who replaces the workers who have either died or have been left incapacitated. In the past when major things have happened the new workers can find jobs but often at a much reduced wage. The only time that has not happened was during the middle ages when much of the population was wiped out. It did allow for the serfs to become free because there was no one alive who had previously owned them. The current think once again is that social programs are not needed because people should be trying to better themselves. This along with reduced taxes because of less employment should mean the things that people have come to expect may be gone. While SS has not been cut in the past it is programed not to keep up with inflation. For those lucky enough to receive it a few years of no cost of living increases which are not guaranteed by law. I have been thinking for several years that a major social and financial shift was in the future. It may be the future is slamming us in the face even if we do not see it.

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chisue

Last spring I remember posting concerns about what comes AFTER Covid. I was thinking about all the goods and services currently hawked to Seniors -- a segment of our population being decimated by the virus.

The fallout for food services over this virus amazed me. I hadn't realized how many people ate 'out' so often, or how many people were employed feeding them. Now I see restaurants in colder climates planning warmed outdoor enclosures where indoor dining is prohibited. Are there enough 'virus-isolating pods' of family or friends to make this feasible? (Enclosed is enclosed.)

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maifleur03

Masks in many places are mandatory but there are no penalties for not wearing a mask. Some stores will refuse entry but with the number of people becoming violent with staff or getting in their face many stores post the notice but do nothing. To make masks actually mandatory rather than if you feel like it penalties are needed. This city has a masking requirement but the grocery store I went to last month had very few people wearing them.

The number of people who cannot wear a mask such as a person needing oxygen or having PTSD is very small.

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olychick

And people with PTSD or low oxygen do NOT have be admitted to stores to potentially spread a deadly virus. All the store has to do if someone claims a disability is make a reasonable accommodation. A reasonable accommodation does NOT include allowing them to risk spreading a deadly virus because they cannot (or will not) wear a mask. A reasonable accommodation is curbside service or internet access or similar. THAT is reasonable.

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olychick

How did Maine manage to control the virus spread in their state? If the feds had done this, we'd likely be where they are:

https://komonews.com/news/coronavirus/one-of-the-lowest-transmission-rates-of-covid-19-in-the-country-how-theyre-doing-it



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maifleur03

The parts of Maine I have been to have been very rural. If you look at worldometers they have something like 449,000 tests per million people and they only have just over a million in the whole state. They still had over 6,000 infected.

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Kathsgrdn

I just went to the Dollar General store after getting my new driver's license. When I got there only 2 other cars. By the time I left there were about 6. 2 women wore their mask below their noses. One of them was right in front of me looking and touching everything in the check out line. I wouldn't have gone there but can't find spray cleaner on line. Amazon has some but they are over $20 for one bottle. Crazy. I bought some Lysol with lemon scent that I never used before. They only had 3 bottles. I should have grabbed 2 but didn't. I also picked up some other cleaning products to stock up. No swiffer wet wipes available. Seems I thought I bought some from Walmart yesterday but I bought the dry ones. I don't know how I messed that up but I did.

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nickel_kg

Jally, as gently as I can say it: TL,DR.

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Elmer J Fudd

Are further shutdowns to be expected? Hopefully yes, things are worse now in the US overall than at any other time. People are needlessly dying because of the incompetence of politicians. It has always been and remains a public health problem, despite those who keep trying to make it a political issue.

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kadefol

Had to stop by the grocery store fairly late last evening and, while the store was pretty empty, there were at least 8 people without masks. 2 young couples, a few teenagers and the rest middle-aged and older people.

The store clearly posts (via big banners at both entrances) that masks are required. But there is no enforcement because store employees are not allowed to confront non-mask wearers, and police, of course, don’t have the resources to enforce compliance. So the anti maskers get to move about with impunity.

Obviously, since they are not concerned about their own (nor anyone else’s) exposure, they are probably also freely socializing and therefore much more likely to be infected/spreaders. It seems like the more the virus spreads, the less some people care.

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nickel_kg

kadefol, DH and I decided early on that whenever we entered an establishment that did not heed masks or distancing, we'd turn around and leave. And then contact either the store management, our neighborhood facebook group, or our state's health dept, whichever seemed appropriate. Enough people have done that, that mask wearing has improved a great deal. I realize it's not practical for many people to do that -- especially if you're working and have limited time, or limited stores to choose from, or not enough in your community give a hoot about other people's health & safety, so no judgement.

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kadefol

nickel, I wish we had lots of stores to choose from so we could do the same. But we only have 2 of this particular store and a walmart in town and,
from what I hear, the walmart has a much bigger problem with mask
compliance.

Since this is TX and so many people are armed
I can understand the store's refusal to have store employees confront
people. I really like the way Trader's Joe's is handling the issue, but they are more than a two hour round-trip for us so not feasible every shopping trip.

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nickel_kg

Kadefol, what is Trader Joe's doing? Confrontation is difficult in the best of times, I certainly understand that!

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Jasdip

Seeing these posts about non-mask wearers certainly surprises me. I can't recall a time when I've seen someone in a store without a mask. Just today I was out and I was standing at the side to allow a young man wearing a mask, to exit the aisle and he thanked me. Seeing male teenagers and young adults wear them just makes me feel good.

There was a young female boasting on FB about what a Hero she is for not wearing a mask, and she got slammed, insulted and shut down in a hurry.

I would feel soooo self-conscious if I shopped without wearing one.

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kadefol

Jasdip, I agree. Today, we had a couple plumbers here via a service contract and neither one was wearing a mask.

Nickel, the TJ's we go to occasionally only allows a limited number of shoppers in the store and the employee who monitors the numbers of shoppers at the entry also refuses to allow anyone without a mask to enter the store. We've only been there twice since the virus outbreak started and everyone was wearing masks.

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morz8

I think I've waited outside Trader Joe's to be allowed in every time I've gone this year except my last trip. That trip - no line. DH has stayed outside, not wanting to be counted in the number of shoppers. The closest store to me does not have a lot of square footage, but when I do get inside, its not in the least crowded.

I haven't seen many other stores continuing a head count at the door. Early on, Fred Meyer, Costco, Home Depot were all doing it. My first trip out to Home Depot last Spring I drove in, circled the parking lot, left without getting out of my car. The line of shoppers waiting to get in was so long that day that I didn't even park or turn off my car.

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nickel_kg

Sounds like TJ's is a well-run organization. I've been to the closest one twice, because it's not close at all. Fun store!

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kadefol

Morz, back in March our local grocery stores were limiting the number of shoppers and several times the line wrapped around the entire building. They had started implementing order online and curbside pickup, but the wait times were 2 - 3 weeks. I hope the situation doesn't get to that point again.

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bpath

I’ve never seen someone inside a building without a mask on, although there is someone in a nearby Nextdoor group who regularly posts about places, usually gas stations, where the clerk inside was not wearing a mask.

I haven’t had to wait outside in a line, but then we have a lot of choices for grocery/drug/household goods stores so perhaps we are all just scattered. I do see markings on the outside sidewalks, so maybe it’s just not when I go to the store.

But, on Saturday all restaurants are closed to indoor dining for, I think, a month. A couple of independent restaurants had just invested in more extensive ventilation and cleaning systems, so this is a blow for them, being less able to recoup. I still don’t see why It is okay to eat in a tent, with sides, and heaters, but not inside, with sides and a ventilation system. But they are all doing their best to accommodate, and the community is kind of asking each other to order take-out , or even eat outside, from one restaurant a week. Well, we don’t eat out once a week anytime, but I will try to talk DH into ordering from time to time, especially from our favorites so that they are there when we CAN go out!

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Rose Pekelnicky

Last week I took a drive to see a covered bridge. I stopped at 2 different Amish bulk foods stores and none of the workers were wearing masks. Today I stopped in an Aldi's store and there were about 6 Amish shoppers, none wearing a mask. In Pennsylvania and in Ohio masks are mandated.

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Lukki Irish

I can’t even tell you the last time I was in a grocery store. I had to go to Costco once a couple of weeks ago and was only in the store for 15 minutes. I have my groceries delivered and if I need something from the farmer’s market, my DD has been able to pick it up for me when she goes. It stresses me out when I see so many people who just don’t give a d*amn about how many people have gotten sick much less died.

I’ve said this before, but feel a need to say it again. When someone refuses to wear a stupid mask so collectively we can protect each other, it’s a true reflection as to who he/she is as a human being. (and that reflection ain’t pretty!)

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maifleur03

Lukki I would like you comment many times if I could. It also carries over to so much that is and has happened in this world.

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Lukki Irish

Thank you Maifleur.

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Elmer J Fudd

That's very sad but on the day that youngster died, 1000 people died from Covid in the US. I'm clear which number is more relevant to think about, for understanding what's happening in the US right now. I hope others are too.

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maifleur03

80,000 is less than two days vs months. Continue the denial and eventually reality will come calling. Probably MB is one of the ones who always mask up but talk a good game.

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Lukki Irish

Ummmm, 80,000 2017-2018 deaths translated into 32,000/mo (229000/7 months) would be 384,000 Covid deaths in the same period of time, IF death rates stayed where they are now. Do you really not see the difference between 80,000 vs 384,000?

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murraysmom Zone 6a OH

Lukki, it's hard to see that with your head in the sand. Denial is quite the blinder.

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maifleur03

I find it hard to understand that people do not know that without the virus there would have only been the regular number of deaths this year. It seems very sad that they have decided that they are the only ones that can count the deaths. But then they are so special.

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Elmer J Fudd

The agitating isn't productive. You find few agree with you, why bother?

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Elmer J Fudd

Bye.

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sephia_wa

"If you have concerns or are vulnerable stay home until there's treatment, that way the rest of society can carry on."

Why should I have to stay home? There's so much scientific evidence from numerous sources showing wearing masks reduce the spread. Why can't you just wear a mask? What's so hard about that?

Oh, I know, I know. You have rights. But I have rights too, and I shouldn't have to stay home.

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sephia_wa

My selfish behavior. That's funny. I wear a mask every time I go out, which isn't often. I socially distance if I do go out. I don't gather in groups. I do everything the CDC recommends. Yet I'm selfish. LOL.

All the people who refuse to wear masks exhibit selfishness. You're right, masks aren't the "perfect" solution. But like I already said, scientific evidence from numerous sources show wearing masks can slow the spread.

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wildchild2x2

People are wearing masks. However the masks that are being worn are not all that effective. Thus if one thinks they can't survive the virus they should stay home. Masks are but a single measure and it is doubtful they do much at all. Wearing them isn't going to do much of anything unless you are social distancing, washing your hands frequently etc. Don't forget to wash your hair also.

There is not a single truly scientific study that shows masks do much of anything other than maybe reduce the chance of transmission if they are worn correctly and consistently. If anyone knows of one please link to it. Homemade masks are not science, neither are scarves, bandanas and paper dust masks. However those have been approved as "face coverings" by our "public health" DATA "scientists". The idiots of academia with political biases.

Even the so called "science" is claiming risk reduction, not prevention.

Everyone is doing the if Ido this I will be safe song and dance. But viruses are gonna virus. The only surefire way to avoid them is is to stay home and self isolate. Of course they could still be delivered to you by your couriers Choices. We all have to make them.

I can't repeat it enough. Look your own doctor straight in the eye and ask them for their honest opinion.

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maifleur03

I find it interesting that some of the anti-maskers that post about not wearing them still put them on. As far as reducing the chance of having any disease that is what is what medical people have always stated as what should be done since they found out about bacteria being able to be transmitted. Apparently no need to wash hands after going to the bathroom if there is no visible residue following this line of reasoning.

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sephia_wa

"Since you feel targeted by my posts"

Don't be so presumptuous. You know nothing about me or my vulnerability. I may be thinking about someone else who is vulnerable and is getting sick of being told to just stay home.

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wildchild2x2

I find it interesting that some of the anti-maskers that post about not wearing them still put them on

It's a freaking mandate. We have no choice if we want to shop and gain entrance. We wear them when required and sometimes by request just to be nice to people who struggle with covid anxiety. You can be anti a lot of things and still follow rules you disagree with. It's called choosing our battles. Just like workers who come into my home are offered the choice to not wear masks. Each one has been grateful for being able to breath freely. Because my castle, my rules.

Unlike some we are not so selfish we expect others to completely bow to our wishes. Like taking responsibility for our own health.

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Elmer J Fudd

Just as a reminder, you should wear a mask to protect other people FROM YOU, not the other way around. It's a common courtesy. It's how any individual can be polite and considerate to others, to protect others.

Those who think being kind and considerate to others is a burden or a needless mandate are welcome to feel that way. But they're wrong. This is not that hard to understand.

Also not hard to understand is that other countries that have enforced control procedures, including mask wearing, have reduced and some even eliminated their local outbreaks. Unlike the US record of failing to do so.

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jane__ny

What's sad is that as numbers rise, we forget the doctors, nurses and heath care workers who have to deal with all the sick. Everyone might not die, but many become very sick and have to be hospitalized. Please keep those healthcare workers in your site. They are not paid enough to risk their life everyday to treat people who refuse to fight a war against an enemy which invaded our Country.


There are many young people with chronic illness who die. People undergoing chemo whose immune systems are compromised. Diabetics and obese people are vulnerable. People who live alone or have limited income can't afford to pay for services to deliver food or medications.


Thinking that this disease only affects older people is very wrong. You could get very sick, might not die but have consequences due to this virus. So many people live alone and have no one to help them.


I could go on and on. This is a pandemic which affects all of us. It has created a difficult situation which touches everyone even if it is not fatal. How many have no health insurance? How many lost their jobs and have lost their health insurance.


We need to broaden our scope about ways to handle this pandemic in a way which benefits all. We have come together in the past and put our differences aside and we won. We can win this if the Country unites again to beat this enemy. We could have done this already if everyone thought outside themselves and view this as war. We need to fight together and we will win as we have in the past.


Please don't forget the doctors and healthcare workers in the hospitals. We need them, we need the hospitals to be available for all the 'other things' which happen in our lives.


Jane

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arcy_gw

Yep flues, pneumonia, bronchitis hit those with chronic illness HARD. That's sort of the point. We are scaring the HECK out of healthy people for really no reason...we need to safeguard the vulnerable, but to close down the world is not going to work for any of us in the long haul.

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Raye Smith

I was reading an article in the WSJ about Covid and the future. Like most of these article it states that Covid is much more serious that the flu so they shouldn't be compared. Then it continues by comparing Covid to the 1918 flu. Do they not see the irony that they are making a direct comparison of Covid to the flu?

Yes, arcy, people are beginning to realize that there are terrible consequences of lock-down aside from the obvious job losses. There are increased suicides, un-diagnosed diseases, un-vacinnated children...

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chisue

Cloth and surgical masks are *proven* to help stem the spread of Covid from people who are infected (but may have no symptoms) to other people. N95 masks protect the wearer, but not others.

Q. Why do you think medical personnel WEAR MASKS in hospitals? Why do they wash?

A. Centruies ago it was proven that masks and hand-washing reduce the spread of disease...including viruses...like Covid.

Re: Comparing Covid with the 1918 Flu. They are both PANDEMICS, with some facts still available about 1918, unlike prior pandemics.


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Bookwoman

What Ziema said. My own doctor, as well as a close friend who is chief of surgery at a large medical center here, say the same things.

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Ziemia

I can't repeat it enough. Look your own doctor straight in the eye and ask them for their honest opinion.

I have. They have said that as long as you mask up AND social distance the odds are in your favor (of avoiding infection). And to social distance, I must avoid in-door dining and crowded stores and public places and large gatherings, etc.

************************************************************************


Almost everyone is against a real shut-down.

Those who participate in risky behavior ARE spreading the covid and healthy people ARE getting real sick.

The real sick end up crowding the hospitals. And crowded hospitals are a danger to so many people. So, the logic is clear. Shutdowns are undesirable. We don't want a shutdown. Simple behaviors keep the hospital load low. Do the simple behaviors to avoid the shutdown.

but to close down the world is not going to work for any of us in the long haul.

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nickel_kg

Whatever news or social media source is pushing scare tactics in your face, maybe turn them off. You'll be happier without the hyperbole. Well maybe -- some people enjoy having their hair on fire and some people don't. I don't, but if you do, carry on while I scroll on by.

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Olychick

Here's a proposal!

How about all of you anti-maskers who participate in risky behavior stay home instead of the more vulnerable? That will leave the more careful people at less risk, slow down the virus and reward the people doing the right thing.


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jmm1837

"There are increased suicides, un-diagnosed diseases, un-vacinnated children..."

Why would diseases be undiagnosed and children unvaccinated? Where I live, we were in very hard lockdown for over 3 months but all the medical clinics were open and the government was urging people to get regular check ups and shots, above all the flu shot .

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maifleur03

Those are just the talking points of people who are unable to comprehend that what they are being told could be wrong if they actually stopped to think about it. Just as some on here keep posting about masks being mandatory but then mention there is no enforcement. I am seeing an increasing backlash against the no maskers on line. Only time will tell if and when that anger is unleashed against more than just a post. While I hope I am wrong someone will snap after seeing what happened to their family and hearing/seeing one too many times how mild the virus is.

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stacey_mb

In Winnipeg where I live, our infection rate has just skyrocketed! So now we're under Code Red, which means gyms, libraries, restaurants, etc. are closed until further notice. Restaurants are open only for takeout. I found out about the library closure too late to load up on books. Darn! Again, this is about people being irresponsible. Neighbor who is a nurse told me that someone who tested positive was scheduled for a hospital cardiac procedure and didn't tell the medical staff. That meant that the entire cardiac unit had to be closed so that the staff could get tested and quarantine for 14 days!

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Raye Smith

Jmm - you may not agree but physicians are reporting issue in all those areas.

Vaccinations Fall to Alarming Rates, C.D.C. Study Shows: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/health/vaccinations-rates-coronavirus.html


COVID's heavy toll: Depression, suicides, opioid overdoses increase in pandemic era: https://www.crainsdetroit.com/health-care/covids-heavy-toll-depression-suicides-opioid-overdoses-increase-pandemic-era


COVID-19 Leads to Drop in Cancer Diagnosis: https://www.cancerhealth.com/article/covid19-leads-drop-cancer-diagnoses


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jmm1837

I suspect that has more to do with your public health system and it's messaging than with the pandemic itself. (Except for the mental health issues, which are certainly associated with the pandemic). But I can't see why any sensible person would skip vaccines or a critical health check up even in a pandemic. Cosmetic surgery, maybe not, but cancer checks, absolutely.

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sephia_wa

"Vaccinations Falling to Alarming Rates," um, that article is dated May 18, 2020. This is Oct. 30. Is that information still relevant?

And if depression, suicides, opioid overdoses are occurring in increasing numbers, and people aren't getting cancer diagnosis, I guess that means we need to all pitch in and do what we can to help get over this pandemic. Things like wearing masks, social distancing, no large gatherings, etc. The people who aren't heeding these recommendations are contributing to the continued pandemic.

I too, am seeing increased backlash online towards those who refuse to heed the recommendations. Those of us who do what we can are getting tired of the anti-maskers and those who continue to gather in groups. Your rights aren't more important than mine.

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ci_lantro

But I can't see why any sensible person would skip vaccines or a critical health check up even in a pandemic. Cosmetic surgery, maybe not, but cancer checks, absolutely.

I can easily see it. You've been laid off from your job and lost your company health insurance. Or your schedule has gone wacky because the kids aren't in school 5 days a week so you postpone getting a mammogram or pap smear. More demands on your time--cooking at home a lot more, for one thing. Part-time teacher because the kids are distance learning or you are home schooling. Or have developed Covid related paranoia and don't want to expose yourself in any kind of health care setting.

The Lancet's take on the situation in the UK:


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2045(20)30388-0/fulltext

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Chi

I recently moved from California to Utah, where people are not taking masks seriously. I was trying to hire some movers here in Utah, and I had set up a date with one company and was going to hire them, But then I double checked that they would be wearing masks, and he told me that since masks make their job so much harder, they would be charging an extra $100 to wear them. I was shocked.

Needless to say, I cancelled the job with them and found some wonderful guys who take covid seriously, and they did a great job, fully masked.

I appreciate that masks make physical labor more difficult. But I think charging a large fee to a customer who is trying to stay safe is just wrong. And I definitely didn't want them roaming through my home and handling my items knowing how resistant they are to wearing masks.

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jmm1837

ci-lantro - I keep forgetting about the US system. Access to health care where I live isn't contingent on employment. But I guess that brings us to the basic point: until you get some sort of control over the spread of the virus there are going to be continuing issues and disruptions, which just opening up and hoping for the best isn't going to solve.

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Elmer J Fudd

Other than the needless and what could have been avoidable consequences of job losses from the economy crashing, the vast majority of Americans have healthcare.

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maifleur03

A lot of that majority have healthcare through their employer. Loose job loose health insurance.

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sephia_wa



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Annie Deighnaugh

One estimate I saw was that 2/3rds of Americans rely on private health insurance, so it is substantial.

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jmm1837

Elmer I wasn't implying that health coverage in the US was always contingent on employment, I was just responding to the statement that "You've been laid off from your job and lost your company health insurance." I know that does happen there. It doesn't where I live. That's all.

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maifleur03

Elmer do you know how long it normally takes for the California medical assistance program from initial signing up for the program to receiving the card?

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Elmer J Fudd

I don't think that's relevant to my comment. Do you think it is?

If you move to the US and apply for a medical insurance policy you can afford, how long does that take? Does that matter?

Someone I know moved as a self-employed person to another country and wouldn't be given a limited term resident's visa until they submitted a local health insurance certificate. That took nearly a month. Is the time required relevant?

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maifleur03

I was asking because without having such a card the person receiving health care who has lost their insurance and job will have to pay full price for any healthcare received. Has nothing to do with immigration.

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Elmer J Fudd

You're off into the weeds and missing my point. People who are unable to pay rarely have to pay "full price" for care as you say. Often it's free.

You asked about timing, I'll say - so what? Does that mean there aren't programs and care available?

There are community health clinics, charges based upon ability to pay. Federally funded Medi-caid jointly with states that covers children of poor family comprehensively and indigent/low income families. Dental services too. County health clinics and county and city hospitals. The Indian Health Service. The VA. Emergency departments of public hospitals that won't turn away people needing care.

Are you going to say - but they don't validate parking, where can anyone park?

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Annie Deighnaugh

People who are unable to pay rarely have to pay "full price" for care as you say. Often it's free.

Elmer, I think you're missing the group of people who lose health insurance when they lose their job and can't afford to pay COBRA, which is very expensive, who then go without insurance. It's not that they can't pay for medical care...it's that paying will bankrupt them...lose their savings, their cars, their homes. It's only those with nothing to lose who get free care.

Medical expenses are the primary cause of bankruptcy in this country, one Harvard study saying it accounts for 62% of bankruptcies.

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HamiltonGardener

But I can't see why any sensible person would skip vaccines or a critical health check up even in a pandemic. Cosmetic surgery, maybe not, but cancer checks, absolutely.


Jmm,

A few years ago I had some issues. Six months before the pandemic really hit, I had a second biopsy which showed I had no more cancerous cells but still had some “abnormal” cells. I was told I needed another Pap test in six months. That date landed early this year when they shut down doctors offices and cancelled procedures.


This included my follow ups. Due to the cancellations of several months and then the subsequent backlog, I only just got my pap this past week and am waiting to find the results....almost a year and a half since my last one.


I am not alone in this. Many in Canada have faced the same thing since health departments decided to redirect resources to retirement homes and have possible Covid wards on standby.


I’m willing to bet that cancer patients have a higher death rate than Covid patients, but apparently the paranoia around Covid outweighs everything.


I am already a tad perturbed that our government decided that cancer was no longer important. It is a little insulting that you think I, and others in my boat, are not “sensible” enough to get the healthcare we need.

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Michele

My family and I are forever changed from living through this experience. (So far)

Way back in March, where it started with a bang here in NYC, my husband and I figured out our plan. As he qualifies for senior hours, he would take advantage of those first hours for shopping. We figured it was safest being among other careful and concerned shoppers. Very difficult for him. I’m the early bird. He’s the night owl. Makes me very appreciative of his effort.

There are a few reasons we don’t get deliveries or buy a month’s worth of groceries. Very limited space is one.

It was terrifying. To see big refrigerated trucks parked outside of hospitals with your own eyes makes an impression.

We did not hide, frightened, in a closet as some portray those of us who are careful and concerned. We had our responsibilities the whole entire time. We’ve had no break from it because I am my mom’s (91) caregiver and my daughter had a little baby boy on 7/10/2020. I’m her helper as well, as her husband works abroad.

We were out and about the whole time. Wearing masks. Distancing. You know the protocol. Frankly, the plain old stupidity infuriates me. Be responsible. As a good citizen. As a good person. Care for others.

Think for a moment about the healthcare workers. Give them one less sick person to deal with. I don’t know how they kept going here in March and April. It was relentless.

Selfish??? Look in the mirror.

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summersrhythm_z6a

Talking about selfish. Some parents in our neighborhood will send their kids out to trick or treat tonight. They believe their kids should have fun no matter what....

Happy Halloween!

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sjerin

Elmer, if that were so, why would anyone have medical debt? It's nice to believe there's a lovely safety net, but we all know there is not.

More than just being stupid, the non-mask wearers appear to be happy to be manipulated by those playing political games. I will never, never understand that.

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nickel_kg

To be clear, some people don't like wearing masks but they do anyhow -- a sincere 'thank you' to them. It's the people who refuse to wear a mask at all, even when they should, that are ... disappointing.

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maifleur03

It was the people who fall in-between job and lacking enough income to qualify for any public assistance for health care which is the reason I asked about the time frame between applying and receiving. As Anne mentioned that gap could especially for those who need high cost medication lead to bankruptcy. Since each state basically does its own thing but Medi-Cal or whatever it is called and that is where Elmer lives I thought he should know how long it took. Here Medicaid does not pay bills before approval except for nursing home charges so the family would still have to pay. I was seeking information and not to irritate a certain person.

There is also the thing that many people have no idea where there are free health clinics. This area has had a free health clinic in Westport, our artsy, area for years but even though I lived in the area I never knew where it was. The public tax payer supported hospital still bills and for forgiveness or reduction requires proof of financial hardship. A hospital will not or should not turn anyone away but they do.

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Lukki Irish

For the past two days I’ve heard reports about hackers from “the motherland” hacking into hospitals and shutting them down with Ransom Ware. According to Security Agencies, they have 400 hospitals on their target list. This means the odds of someone getting the help they need from a now Crippled and overstressed hospital will be Sh*t Out of Luk. At the same time, the super spreader champion is telling people covid #’s are low and hospital staff are lying because they want more money.

Wear the freaking mask. Quit complaining about it, no one cares if you feel your rights are being violated. We ALL have the right to live. The selfishness of some people is just beyond the pale. I can’t even stand to listen to some of the crazy lines people are coming up with! Who really thinks like that?

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kadefol

Re. US healthcare, too many people fall through the cracks. We have several relatives who've lost their jobs or are only employed part-time due to the covid recession. Their (and their family's) health insurance is tied to their job and employers are not required to offer health insurance to part-time workers (the ACA requirement does not kick in unless an employee works 30 hours or more a week), and many do not. No full-time job, no health insurance. Their income is not low enough to qualify for Medicaid or indigent care, but not high enough to shoulder major medical bills. And COBRA is not affordable to most laid off people.

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summersrhythm_z6a

Most of doctor offices have two sets of price tags, one for insurance billing and one for paying out of your own pocket without insurance. Make sure to ask for it if you have no insurance.

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maifleur03

Ask but do not be surprised if the out of pocket is higher or you are told to contact the billing office.

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Kathsgrdn

Lukki Irish, heard the same thing last night about the hospital's computer systems being hacked, making it impossible for some people to get some treatments. Our hospital is fully computerized so it would be awful for us. I think we could still work, we have backups and paper charting as a backup, but it's a pain in the butt. I got logged off my computer last night for updates and my coworker made a comment when her's did the same thing, that they just went through last week. I wonder if they are updating so frequently to prevent these particular attacks?

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Elmer J Fudd

My comment had to do with two people assuming that only employment leads to healthcare coverage. That's a false assumption for the reasons I mentioned. The majority of comments have been waay off-topic.

I suspect one of the commenters is Canadian. Here's a stat - there are 69 million active participants in Medicaid. That's nearly double the population of Canada and it's strictly non-employment related. Another 10 million are served by the VA. Several more million by the Indian Health Service. And more programs too. I'll stop there. My comment was that healthcare in the US is not solely employment related and that is very much the case. These numbers represent nearly 25% of the US population.

Yes, more should have reliable coverage. That's also a different conversation.

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Raye Smith

HamiltonGardener - so sad ! Unfortunately you're not alone and there are thousand of others, that like you, were forced to delay necessary medical care.

I do wear a mask as required, even though I know it's useless. I am comfortable in stores, flew on multiple airplanes this summer and meet with friends knowing that it's extremely unlike that anyone in those situation is infectious. Would I set foot in a medical facility, no way.

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rob333 (zone 7a)

Two weeks until shutdown. Maybe sooner. The UK has already shutdown.

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jmm1837

We had a heavy lockdown here in my neck of the woods (Australia) and have only just emerged after three months. Curfews, stay at home orders except for 1 hour of exercise and one of essential shopping and medical care, takeaway only from restaurants, mandatory masking. The whole nine yards. We went from a rolling average of 500 to 600 cases a day down in the city to under 5. There have been no cases for three days. It was tough on everyone, and disastrous for the economy, but the contact tracing system is now up to scratch and businesses are all reopening (under Covid-safe guidelines) so there's a glimmer of hope. We just need to keep it controlled, and not have the situation in which the hospitals cannot cope, as is occurring in Europe right now. Oh, and while most of the restrictions have been lifted, masking remains mandatory. It isn't the one and only answer, but it does help.

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maifleur03

I keep wondering how the economy is being affected by the deaths. They can no long purchase or save anything. What they had may be transferred to one person or multiple. There is also the ones who recover but never work again. Those in what is considered the prime of their lives will need perhaps more funds than they had been able to acquire. I look at past depressions and recessions for clues about where the economy is headed.

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maifleur03

On a side note. For whatever reason I am doing nervous eating. Something I have done very seldom in my life.

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summersrhythm_z6a

The out of pocket without insurance billing is much cheaper. You could test it out and see for yourself. :-)

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maifleur03

summersrhythm before I reached Medicare age I did. My insurance co-pay was $10. The charge would have been $40. Now I have been able to obtain prescriptions cheaper than the co-pay.

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Kathsgrdn

Well, second highest day in KY today, nearly 2000. Many people out trick or treating with no masks. Saw one little girl with a mask and that was it. Went to Wal-mart for a drill bit thinking no one would be there because of the holiday, wrong....multiple people with no masks on in the store. Worse at Tractor Supply, where almost no one was wearing one. I just don't understand people.

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summersrhythm_z6a

maifleur03, we have very high deductible, used to pay $40 copay for office visit many moons ago. I missed those days.

Kathy, how many kids did you get tonight? I wished parents could keep their kids home tonight for everyone's safety.

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Lukki Irish

Kathsgrdn, Every hospital in this country is now on an EMR/EHR system but they’ve had a really hard time keeping up with security demands. They’ve been merging, converting systems and moving divisions around so much, there’s no way their IT security can keep up. That makes them an easy target. It’s scary. I worry about Non Covid patients that are in need of care too. Paper files can only help so much.

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Raye Smith

chisue - medical personnel are NOT wearing the same masks as the general public. They are wearing N-95 masks because they know that they are the only masks that will stop a virus particle. The paper and fabric masks the public wears is not of a small enough weave to stop a virus particle. If it was, hospitals could save a lot of money not using the more expensive masks.

To those that don't understand skipped and delayed medical care. Are you not aware that many providers, doctors offices and clinics have closed permanently because they couldn't survive the months of being closed ? Plus the most risky behavior is to go where sick people are - such as hospitals and doctor's offices.

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Michele


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Raye Smith

Michele - To visualize a virus particle you have to use an electron microscope, they are not visible to the naked eye. So no, the above photos are not going to show the volume of virus particles in the air.

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Michele

Oh. Right.

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Michele

I’ll leave the scientists the electron microscopes. I’ll listen to their recommendations thanks.

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Elmer J Fudd

raye, I think you're trolling again.

People with respiratory viral infections were long ago found to expel virus particles when they breath, speak and sneeze. Many studies have been done this year that prove such to be the case with the coronavirus, which is why the mask wearing and "social distancing" directives were issued and are continually communicated. And how maskless close contact is the principle means of spread between people.

You know very well that the images are intended to demonstrate the spread of particles when someone opens their mouth and speaks, breathes, and sneezes. If you don't, you should. The mask image depicts how the aerosol spread is minimized with a mask.

Surgeons wear masks. Why do you think that is?

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Olychick

The photo doesn't show virus particles, it shows droplets (which may or may not contain viruses) and how those droplets are stopped by masks. Not 100%, but dramatically fewer droplets released. Sheesh.

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maifleur03

When people are in denial nothing that anyone can tell them will convince them that they are wrong. For some even seeing people around them including family will not do it. Some even on their death beds from things that they have done will not be because of what their actions were. I had a friend whose husband loved going much too fast. On his death bed it was not because he was going well over 100 it was because the road curved.

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maifleur03

Unltra you realize that there are a few over the age of 30 who do not have some type of compromised immune system? A question for you would be have you ever had a streph infection or bronchitis? Does any of your relatives by blood have any of the things that develop about that age? You have some type of compromise within your body even if you do not know it yet. By the way when was the last time a doctor really did a good exam on you?

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maifleur03

I noticed Mega has been replaced by Ultra.

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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

Dying from the virus is not the only concern. And in some cases, it may not be of significant concern at all.....compared to the potential for long term and possibly very debilitating side effects. Impaired lung function, heart issues and the increased potential for strokes, seizures, neurological disorders like chronic fatigue syndrome and a greater risk of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's have all been documented. And these side effects are not restricted to a specific age level or to those with serious cases of the virus. Young kids are affected and those with only mild viral symptoms as well.

"Selectivity" of any sort is an inappropriate response. This needs to be uniform and countrywide!! Otherwise, we will never get beyond this and back to (a new) normal until an effective vaccine is available to all. And I'm not holding my breath on that one to happen any time soon!

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maifleur03

Being over 60 it is not the dying that I worry about among younger people it is the long term health problems that are being discovered in people who have "recovered". I look at it like polio. People did not all die and some did recover. Among those who recovered some did not live full lives. Some developed syndrome after 30-40 years. Keep thinking that there will be no after affects if you want but while you are at it consider how much it will cost yourself as a taxpayer to keep the recovered alive with a minimum of care.

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isabellagracepan

Cloth masks reduce the changes of getting and spreading COVID.

Yes, the individual viral particles are very small (0.1 micrometers), but the virus does not travel alone. The virus "rides" on respiratory products (i.e. spit flecks) that are much larger. Cloth masks are not perfect (n95 masks have much smaller pore sizes), but they are still able to decrease the spread of larger droplets. Anything you are reading online that states that the virus size alone determines the effectiveness of the mask is misinformed.

It is essential to reduce the spread outwards and inwards of aerosol and droplet particles. Cloth masks are an easy way to do that. I am super claustrophobic and initially I could only manage 5 minutes in a mask before hyperventilating, but now I have practice and can go a full hour with a mask. It is not too much to ask that we help keep our neighbours, ourselves and our communities safe.

And yes, thank you to the person above who mentioned keeping our healthcare workers safe. My husband is a physician in our local COVID ward and he greatly appreciates everyone doing their part and wearing a mask. It really is not that much to ask. Pants aren't always that comfortable (hello skinny jeans) but we seem to manage to go out in public with them on!

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maifleur03

Tight pants while looking good reduce the chance of breeding successfully.

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nickel_kg

LOL back when I was more interested in being fashionable, there were some pretty darn uncomfortable pants there!


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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

What is silly is making such a fuss about wearing a mask. It is NOT that big a deal!! While I do find them mildly irritating to wear and they can steam up my glasses, I just restrict my outings and combine my errands as much as possible so I don't have to wear them often or for very long. And that's a good thing!! Stay home if you can - no mask wearing required and far less chance of any possible infection.

btw, I find no impediment to communication/conversation while wearing a mask. And no indoor dining facility here requires one to remain masked while sitting at the table dining or drinking.

That is just a pathetic excuse from those who look to avoid masking at all costs and carries no weight. Sorry.

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isabellagracepan

I bet when pants were introduced a lot of people complained about having to remove them to do to the bathroom!

The point is, I think a little discomfort (I am also a glasses wearer, so I feel your pain) during a global pandemic is worth it to save lives. It is a small sacrifice to make if it keeps someone from getting a deadly viral infection.

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sephia_wa

gardengal, I've found that to keep my glasses from fogging up when wearing a mask, is if your mask has the wire around the top, be sure and pinch it closed, and then place your glasses on top of it. If your masks don't have the wire, still place your glasses on top of the mask. Once I discovered that, my glasses don't fog up anymore. Hope that helps!

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maifleur03

If wearing a mask is a big deal I wonder at what a small deal would be. Of course I knew someone who thought having one hair out of place was enough to bring out hairspray and use it several times to make certain it never moved. When he nodded all the hair on his head moved but that hair was in place.

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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

LOL!! Wearing a mask is not a sacrifice at all! It is a minor inconvenience at worst. And wearing a mask has not changed my entire routine - I still go out and about when I want or need to but I am also perfectly happy staying at home and not needing to wear one (and I also feel free to go bra-less at home as well - it's a win-win!!)

It is beyond comprehension why such hoopla is being made about a minor inconvenience in one's daily routine. If you don't want to wear a mask, then just stay home!

sephia, thanks. That usually works but my glasses fit loosely and often slip down too far and the fogging starts up again. I get the same thing every time I open the door to a hot oven!

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wildchild2x2

Ultra Bauti THANK YOU! People are so self centered and clueless when they mock those have have difficulty wearing a mask. It's NOT about being able to breathe for many of us. the mask creating two way problems for the deafened. add a vestibular disorder like Meniere's and you have some people virtually unable to walk a straight line with a mask on. The sight line of the mask at the bridge of the nose can bring on Nystagmus, sudden and uncontrollable eye movements leading to dizziness and vertigo. With more sensitive people that little domino effect can lead to nausea and vomiting. More severe symptoms can include hydrops ( sudden drop attacks without warning) fortunately for a minority of people. But imagine how it must be for them simply falling to the ground, no time to try to catch themselves or correct lessen the severity of the fall. Clueless people mocking people with hidden disabilities and they call themselves concerned about others. Shameless. Fortunately I am one of the lucky ones, nowhere near as severely impaired as many. I can drop my mask, put it back in place and carry on. My vertigo is managed/in remission but it's a fine line between wearing a mask for a short period of time and one where that line can be crossed, without warning at any time. I have run out of stores without finishing my shopping to avoid an onset of an attack. Want to stay off that train because one can lead to a series.

There are all sorts of conditions that may make a mask not only uncomfortable or irritating but dangerous for many people but some simply don't care. It's all about them.

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nickel_kg

So it's like service animals. People who need a seeing eye dog or a PTSD support dog or a medical alert dog, everyone understands that. But then a bunch of people took it too far, with emotional support peacocks (was it?) on airplanes, home-made service animal 'certificates' so they can take their pursedog into shops. Now it's hard to tell the people with actual needs, from the big babies. It's a shame people try to exploit any loophole.

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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

" It's all about them."

Really?? What a self serving viewpoint!! 95% of the mask wearing population is doing it for the safety and concern of others, whether they find it comfortable or convenient - that is the entire point!! So where is this concern only for themselves?

I'd also venture to say that those that may suffer some sort of disability while wearing a mask is probably a very low number. And not to diminish the reality of what that disability may be but there is a pretty easy way to remedy it.......just avoid putting yourself in a position where you have to be masked as much as possible. That's what the rest of the population is doing if they find masking overly irritating to nearly unbearable.

Of all the legitimate things we may have to gritch about, this falls pretty low on the agenda!

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wildchild2x2

But for masks there are no loopholes where they are mandated. Even though the state came out with a list of people with disabilities who should be exempt, businesses are going with a no mask, no entry policy as is their right however misguided.

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Elmer J Fudd

gardengal, trollish non-factual comments stop if not replied to. You know who those folks are who get off doing that, I do too. Better to ignore them.

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Chi

One thing I've noticed about the anti-mask crowd is that they tend to be very patriotic, anything-for-my-country types, yet when their country asked them to mask up and maintain social distance to save lives, they crumbled like delicate flowers.

I think previous generations would be outraged at the selfish attitudes for minor inconveniences. It's sad how quickly American culture has degraded to the "me first" type.

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Olychick

"But for masks there are no loopholes where they are mandated. Even though the state came out with a list of people with disabilities who should be exempt, businesses are going with a no mask, no entry policy as is their right however misguided"

Because the 'never maskers' exploited the health exceptions to make a political statement, it ruined it for those few people who truly do have a medical reason to not wear a mask.

But the ADA does not require every person with every disability to be served in every circumstance. All it requires is for a business to make a "reasonable accommodation." So, if there is a danger of unmasked people spreading the virus, a reasonable accommodation is NOT allowing them into businesses unmasked. A reasonable accommodation would be something like curbside service or home delivery. And lots of businesses are doing just that for their customers who cannot come in person because of the risk, or who cannot mask up.

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Chi

I bet we will see a lot more people wearing masks during flu season. There are two big differences between covid and the flu though. The big one is that we have a flu vaccine, and the flu is less contagious than covid and less deadly. And the flu incubation period is much shorter, so the amount of time people can walk around before displaying symptoms is reduced.

But I think anyone with a cough, runny nose, or any other illness should wear a mask in public and stay away from other people. It's just the right thing to do.

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Elmer J Fudd

I warned you.

The relevant portion starts at about the 1:30 point of the sketch







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Lindsey_CA

"I think previous generations would be shocked at how willingly some line up like sheep for the slaughter."

Yes, those folks who followed the Blackout Regulations of World War II would certainly be shocked. But not at how willingly some abide by the mask mandates, but by how ignorant, self-centered, and pigheaded some people are now.

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isabellagracepan

Quote from up above: "There's nothing patriotic about quietly allowing yourself and your
compatriots to be muzzled up like animals and have your basic human
rights taken away by overreaching government. That's how totalitarian
regimes take over, that's how freedoms go away, under the cover of
"saving lives" and "for the children""


What about wearing seat belts? Do you disagree with that? It is not quite the same, since it is about protecting yourself instead of other people, but it is a similar government issued health directive. What about child proof locks on medication containers?

I think it is clear that you are very bothered by masks, and for that I am sorry. It is certainly a hard time for people and I think we all are wishing for it to go away as soon as possible so we can get back to normal life.

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jmm1837

61,000 flu deaths in the worst 8-month flu season in a decade. 235,000 deaths from covid19 in 8 months, and daily case numbers are at their highest level since it began. No comparison in my book.

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sephia_wa

People can get a flu shot every year if they choose. How many of those 61,000 people didn't get one? How many deaths would there be if there wasn't a yearly flu shot available?

There's nothing for Covid yet.

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Lucille

Looks like we have a couple of trolls.

I'm excited to see more Bauti's join in. Let's try and guess what the next Bauti Troll might be! MAGA Bauti?

I do not think they are new people, I think they are sock puppets of existing members, made so when they are banned the original member is still here..


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Kathsgrdn

Wearing a seatbelt can actually save another person, child or baby in the car with you. You can do a lot of damage with your flying body in an accident.

A lot of Asian countries have people that wear masks when they are sick. Long before Covid 19. Wouldn't be a bad thing to do.

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pekemom

I went to Walmart yesterday.. Nov 1, Sunday...and they were out of TP...again. I thought maybe I should pick up a package or two and they are gone...is it starting all over again?

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ci_lantro

.is it starting all over again?

How often do you shop on Sundays? Worst day of the week to shop for grub, household essentials, etc. TP is bulky so it doesn't take many shoppers to clear the shelves. WMT pioneered 'Just in Time' inventory management years ago so there isn't a warehouse worth of overstock in the back room. In the backroom where space hog bulky overstock is going to be depleted quickly, too.

Walmart is always out of stuff on Sunday. Aldi, too. Saturday is second worst because the stores are so busy and by Saturday afternoon the shelves look like they will on Sunday. At least that is my experience. Might have something to do, also, with the local WMT being the second busiest in my state, per the pharmacy tech who gave me my flu shot this week.


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Annie Deighnaugh

Oh brother, here we go again. If you have no problem complying with the govt when it comes to wearing pants, you should have no problem with complying with the govt on wearing a mask. In fact the latter is probably more important from a health point of view than the former.

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HamiltonGardener

My mental health relies on everybody else wearing pants. Please be kind.


(I will make an exception for Brad Pitt)


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Annie Deighnaugh


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Michele

I can’t bring myself to “like” that comment but I sure agree with you Annie

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Annie Deighnaugh

If anyone is interested there's a new study from Stanford that suggests that rallies (I won't say whose) have led to 30,000 confirmed cases and over 700 deaths. They studied a 3-month time period.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3722299 

What really has me SMH is that it's not like we don't know how to stop the spread of infectious disease. It's not like there's a huge mystery that needs to be unwrapped. We *know* what to do. But people won't do it. The solutions are low cost, no side effects, easy to implement and have nothing to do with p*litics. It has everything to do with staying healthy and saving lives. One would think that at the very least that'd be a value we could share. But in these times, in this era, I guess not.

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Annie Deighnaugh

The virus doesn't care why people are gathering in large numbers with no distancing and maskless...only that it presents a great opportunity for it to spread...whether it's at a rally, a protest, a wedding or gramma's for turkey dinner.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

People need to be encouraged to follow safety protocols. We need good leadership to do that. Like a good coach encourages players on their team when they're down.

People are tired and anxious and discouraged and lack good leadership right now.

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smhinnb

Interesting article from the BBC that touches on some of the things discussed here.

They say keeping the lockdown policies in place until a vaccine is available would cause "irreparable damage, with the underprivileged disproportionately harmed".

The health harms cited include:

  • lower childhood vaccination rates
  • worsening care for heart disease and cancer patients

And they point out the risk from coronavirus is 1,000 times greater for the old and infirm, with children more at risk from flu than Covid-19.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386



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sleeperblues

PLEASE STOP RESPONDING TO THE FAMILY OF TROLLS. WHEN YOU FEED THEM THEY REPRODUCE

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LoneJack Zn 6a, KC

^^^ I thought you had to get them wet before they multiplied? Or maybe that was gremlins rather than trolls? lol

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chisue

Denial, anger and blame are commonly seen as deflections from fear. COVID is the implacable enemy, not the adoption of measures that aid in containing it.

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stacey_mb

I saw a posting on CNN that makes sense, saying that the spike in cases after our Canadian Thanksgiving was an example to be avoided for the U.S. It seems that here people relaxed while celebrating and now we're paying the price. Code red in our city.

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HamiltonGardener

When is American Thanksgiving?

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gardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)

I have already declined a family invitation for Thanksgiving. My immediate local family bubble will not be in town over the holiday but this is a somewhat more distant group of family members that I don't feel as comfortable with being unmasked and close to. Plus I would need to take a ferry to get there and that involves all the other risks of being in a confined area although fully masked, waiting rooms, ticket booth, etc.

Too chancy for just a meal together :-) Fortunately the hostess (my nephew's wife) understands completely and is happy to let me celebrate at home safely. I will give plenty of thanks for being safe and remaining healthy!!

ETA: The US thanksgiving is celebrated on the 4th Thursday in November, so this year is 11/26/20.

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Ziemia

Boston (health department) did study the number of Covid-19 cases arising from the huge marches related to the need for improvement in policing.

No uptick was found. They concluded that by NOT standing in a crowd but rather moving along was good.

PS: is there an attempt here to get KT shut off?

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bpath

Hamilton, that Thanksgiving connection sounds reasonable, but cases started escalating elsewhere after September, so it’s hard to say if Thanksgiving was the cause.

I looked at Haiti on WorldMeter, and they are doing quite well? My morbid thought is that the person who submits their numbers is in the hospital . . .

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Ziemia

We have a weird family bubble and are having a family Thanksgiving. Each sub-unit carefully (masking & SD & infrequently) interacts with others. No one we've been in direct contact so far has been infected. (Friends who do know someone who became infected are off-limits.)

My community now gets masking and SD so the trip to the small hardware store, when essential, is doable. (As I read accounts of those who wear masks and get Covid-19 & claim to not know how they got it because they were so careful ... their descriptions of how they socially distanced are much less cautious than mine.)

{Regret not being more articulate.}

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llucy

PS: is there an attempt here to get KT shut off?

Looks like someone is trying hard. Sad.

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Jasdip

A church gathering resulted in 33 cases last week, in a small town south of me. A wedding north of Toronto has 19 new cases, and they're in areas from all over, as they were guests.

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maifleur03

Only time will tell and that time is probably twenty or more years from now which group is correct. This weekend I saw at least two if not more stories that mentioned the amount of infectious material introduced into the body is very important. Something I have wondered about for a while. It was a suggestion of why even people who always mask when going out still develop the virus. The amount of virus going through a mask is less than what would happen if no mask was worn. Effectively gives the body to gradually build up an immunity. The difficulty with this is that there is no way to know what a person's natural immunity would be when in the presence of the virus. Even being tired can suppress the body's immune response. It may also explain why the blood of some people who were not aware they had been infected show antibodies because they had taken the recommended precautions.

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Kathsgrdn

Bpath, I wonder if Haiti is doing well because like some African countries they do not have large elderly populations. The median age in some African countries is something like 25. So the death rate is quite low. Not a lot of elderly people to die of this disease or get very sick from it. Or they could not have the testing capability?

I just had to tell my daughter not to come here for a visit. She was wanting to come before Christmas and then at Christmas and asked if she got tested before if it was okay. She knows better than that, I had to remind her why it isn't a good idea.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

FWIW, I can't imagine having any kind of celebration now anyway - just not feeling it! This year has been a horrorshow.

I can sympathize with those who are devastated by the lack of contact with loved ones and friends, but since I've always been a somewhat socially shy type, it's not a huge sacrifice for me, tho I do miss being in the same place with distant family members and friends.

And since I'm caring for my 90 yr old mom, who has dementia, I need not only to protect her, but myself as well. It's a constant struggle with her memory loss - sometimes she understands why we can't do things like we used to, and other times she forgets...

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Olychick

"A lot of Asian countries have people that wear masks when they are sick. Long before Covid 19. Wouldn't be a bad thing to do."

I have a close friend who has lived in Japan several times and travels there now (pre-covid) for work and pleasure. She always sends me pictures of things she knows I'd be interested in while she's there. Once, I asked her why so many people in the background in her photos were masked. Pollution? Germaphobia? She said it was both, esp in the big cities. I guess that has served them well in this pandemic, as mask usage increased without resistance and they have kept the virus from running wild like it has here in the US.

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maifleur03

More likely Haiti is doing well because it is so poor in many parts of the country. If people do not have money to go to a doctor they will use a local healer. The healers probably are not able to test for the virus.

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ci_lantro

She said it was both, esp in the big cities.

I would think not so much 'germaphobia' as just practical good sense because of population density. As well as reliance on mass transit. Sardine city.

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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

I understand that many people in Asia have already been acclimated to wearing masks for public health reasons because of the SARS epidemic...?

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ci_lantro

More likely Haiti is doing well because...

It's not exactly a tourism hotspot. Less than a million international tourists per year, the majority of which are 'same day tourists'--overnighters, cruise ship excursions.

That's a normal year. Obviously cruise ships haven't been making port there this year.

Also, the State Departments says:

Haiti - Level 4: Do Not Travel. Do not travel to Haiti due to crime, civil unrest, kidnapping, and COVID-19.




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Annie Deighnaugh

That's the catch-22 with the disease though....you can *think* you're doing everything right but you don't *know* if you're doing everything right until you get the disease, and then you know you did something wrong. Of course there's no way of knowing in what way you weren't vigilant enough...only that somewhere along the line you got the disease. And if you don't get the disease, you don't know if it's because of all the precautions you're taking or if it's because you were lucky enough not to run into another infected person. And most likely, you won't ever know.

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Olychick

"I would think not so much 'germaphobia' as just practical good sense because of population density. As well as reliance on mass transit. Sardine city"

You're right ci_lantro - germaphobia was my term for what you wrote.

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Embothrium

Fogged up glasses = escaping breath. I use first aid tape to get the top of my mask closed all the way across. Of course this means it hurts when I eventually remove the mask after I get home because of the tape pulling at the delicate skin below my eyes.

Meanwhile when I go out on top of the usual wearing of masks below the nose inside crowded stores, teams of completely uncovered workers on construction sites, uncovered outdoor dining creating curbside gauntlets and the pulling of masks completely down in order to use phones - whenever and wherever the phone user happens to be at the time - I see a lot of people with masks that fit so that their noses look like they are sitting in a row boat. As in open on top and with large gaps on each side of the nose, with only the tip of the nose covered. And often just barely at that.

Apparently the point of view such behavior demonstrates is not in fact a latter day development, a condemnation of how things have become because I read in the spring about how there was the same problem in 1918. That is that Americans were actually told to distance and cover back then as well and because - same as now - there was a significant component that didn't cooperate a deadly pandemic developed.

With one specific large outdoor political rally in particular that was held right after the looming problem had become recognized being considered a major contributor to the initial establishment and spread of the virus.

Individuals taking seemingly careful precautions and becoming infected anyway shouldn't be a source of mystification when it is thought about the totality of what is involved with exposure. Because the death dust is out there being blown around to settle on every body and every thing that is within reach of each cloud of exhalation. So that a friend with medical training was taking a shower every day after coming home from work, early in the unfolding of the pandemic. And we have probably all seen the comical pictures of random people in China walking around in protective suits with jugs etc. covering their entire heads - a hysterical response, except was it really?

For my part I managed to be moving around inside a crowded Cost Co during peak afternoon hours yesterday and then fall asleep on the living room couch afterward without bathing. Except for washing my face when I got home.

While I was at the warehouse store standing in front of a display reading some product labeling an arm came around from behind me and grabbed a container of the goods and disappeared. I did not look to see how much face covering was employed as they walked away. For one thing I did not want to turn and present my face to the air where they had just been.

But when they came up to me at the display they were right there, like maybe a foot away.

In other news a research entity was granted a million dollars this past week to find out just how long the COVID virus remains viable on surfaces. And the body of a COVID victim that was for some reason kept around for a month was discovered to have still infectious particles in the lungs.


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carolb_w_fl_coastal_9b

Keep in mind that there are more than a few reports now stating that many infections are resulting from more intimate gatherings - in homes.


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Embothrium

Yes: Fauci announced recently that he thought small groups had become the main driver. Any situation where exposure to an infected person occurs can result in infection. And apparently very often does, with the current strain. With the fact that the infected person is a familiar, such as a family member or friend of course conferring no protection. So that what we may be headed for - so to speak - is anyone wanting to have a strong level of confidence in evading the virus needing to wear things on their melons like ear coverings and goggles, in addition to masks. And even people within households and work places having to cover up, keep their distance and sanitize.

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maifleur03

I never understood the idea behind having a bubble since someone in that bubble must have contact with the outside world. It sounds safe but in reality the outside contact person can bring the virus to the group.

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Olychick

Maifleur, I think the concept is that you are only with people you KNOW are doing all the proper safety procedures, even while having to be out in the world - hopefully as seldom as possible.

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maifleur03

Oh, I understand the concept but there was no way that it would work.

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