No, I'm not contemplating using very high humidity. Sometimes the way I explain things doesn't always convey exactly what I was thinking, so if I confused anyone, I apologize. :-)

The chamber is doing exactly what I had hoped and I was just reporting how well it worked. I thought I'd have to use heat under a water source but just the moisture from the trays and heat from the lights keeps it plenty humid.

The comments about the seeds failing, had nothing to do with the chamber, it was either a bad batch of seed or I killed them by storing them in the freezer idk. The fact that the Thuja o. seeds were from two sources and planted into 4 different medias with next to none sprouting speaks volumes that they weren't viable somehow. (I found more Thuja seed btw).

The seeds that I extracted from the pine cones, never were stored and went right into the pots, after soaking and those germinated quickly (about a week) and are growing vigorously.

So from here on is any ones guess. I was planning on updating this thread as time goes on but that's more keeping a log for my own use and now I'm rambling so I'll stop now. ;-)

And to add:

When I wanted higher humidity for the germination stage, I used plastic stretch wrap over the trays. I kept it on for almost a week to ensure the seeds had the high moisture they needed to sprout a radical. Thuja o. seed is planted shallow and tends to 'float up' when watered, so you want the top layer of the media to stay moist so the radicle will continue to grow, long enough to find it's way down into the media.

I added a second fan to provide robust circulation, after the catastrophe I had with DO last season.

Some shots of the Pinus banksiana broom seedlings. At least I found out why they didn't germinate last season. :-)

Yay, seedlings!

I don't typically use tightly fitting plastic for anything. Whereas anything I have ever done in a sealed container winds up moldy and rotten, ventless or closed-vent domes seem to provide just enough circulation to prevent too much mold and mildew growth.

Keep us posted on your broom!

Edit: When I made your pics big, the material actually looks woven. Is that so?

The wrap has a texture (wrinkles?). Very stretchable and sticky, grocery store variety. I've advanced to where I can cover things for 6 or 7 days without mold propagating. :-)

I had covered the trays when I put them outside for cold stratification, to keep them from drying out and it's cold enough here, I didn't have to worry about mold. When I brought them back inside, I left the wrap on for germination purposes. But again, only for a week at most.

This was my second year/attempt at getting these broom seeds to germinate. I think I cooked them last time. I went by internet info that told me to use 180d heat to open the resinous cones. Bad idea, they opened fine but no trees resulted. They opened almost all the way with 85dF. for 20 min. and a duck bill pliers made the job complete. :o)

Cold *is* different. I have found a remarkably easy and space-efficient way to germinate Rosa x rugosa (if I want to make a ton of work for myself later): just throw a bunch of seeds and *very* moist seedling mix into a big Ziplock bag and throw *that* in the fridge. At some point the roses will start growing. They can get to be several inches long if you just leave them there a while.

To my surprise, some of the original Thuja seeds have begun to sprout. I think I'll wait until this is all done and then give a final report. I started the new Thuja seed to hopefully get some replacements for the duds from the first round.

Very little damping off this year. If anything, I'm letting things get too dry.

Bill_minn_3b {West Central MN}, how deeply did you plant them? I wonder because I have tried two methods: one seller indicated that I should plant them 1 inch deep, another recommended to cover them only about as deep as the seed is thick. The 1 inch deep seeds all came up. It just took them a while.

One inch is way too deep for such a small seed imo.

Small seeds have only so much energy contained in them, so even if they do 'make it', they are many times in a weakened condition and for quite some time, will be behind the more shallowly planted.

Besides, there are so many variables involved here to simply give planting depths as a recommendation.

1-6-2021 Update report:

Not having much to do with relative humidity thread per se, I mentioned earlier in the thread of using four different medias for germination. So this is what I observed in the last 2-1/2 weeks.

All seeds were put on top of each cupful of media and covered with a finer form of the same media in the cup. Depth of planting was fairly uniform, anywhere from 1/4" to 1/16", depending on how coarse the media was at the surface and whether or not the seed fell into any of the chasms present, before being covered.

#1) The coir mix performed the best. 22 out of 26 pots displayed sprouts, with many of the cups having more than one plant rising.

#2) The cactus mix didn't come close with 11 of 26 pots having sprouts, with a few of the pots having more than one plant rising.

#3) The bark was a close second, 10 of 26 pots sprouting with a couple pots having more than one.

These first three medias had Thuja o. seed from the same tree, acquired locally.

#4) The Orchid mix did not sprout any of the Thuja seed. But these seeds were collected a little early (mid Sept.) in eastern Wisconsin and may not have been completely mature. OTOH: The Pinus banksiana seeds, in those same pots, sprouted 10 out of 12 pots with all but 3 having multiple plants per pot. One cup with a late comer, single plant, damped off.

I only observed a couple or three cups in the cactus mix that sprouted Thuja then damped off.

I did tend to let things get a little on the dry side the first week or so after thawing and that may have contributed to why some pots with the same seed, didn't germinate as well as the coir mix.

I was going to have a Fifth tray using a Peat/perlite mix but ran out of room/lights after 4 trays so discarded the idea because of that.

I have since started additional Thuja o. seed (in small cups filled with coir) to (hopefully) bring the number of NWC up to >50 (to help fill my contract). ;-)

I will at some point separate the Pines to their own pots.

Update: 1/8/2021

Transplanted the Pinus b. from multiple plants in one pot into separate pots.

Only had one casualty. A root from two plants grew for some distance, through the same tiny hole in a piece of bark and before I figured it out, I damaged one. nbd.

I left one pot with two plants, just to see what happens later, getting them apart.

I now have 18 pots of P. banksiana. Some are 9oz. and some 16oz. size.

Update: 1/12/2021

The coir mix cups seem to be doing fine so I separated the cups that had more than one plant and ended up with 26 pots of Thuja o. in coir.

I'm not sure how they'll do during the establishment stage in pure coir mix but we'll see how that goes.

The plants in the 'bark only' mix looked as good as the rest but didn't hold moisture very good at all. I literally had to water every day. They may have done better if I didn't need the fans anymore but with needing new seeds to sprout and fans going, it dried out terribly fast.

So I repotted all those into a 511 mix.

The plants in the cactus mix didn't look good at all. The mix would get mucky/wet at watering time. I wouldn't think cactus mix would do that, especially with perlite added but idk.

Repotted those into 511 mix.

With repotting and separating into new pots, I gained several additional pots, so I'm back up to 60 potted Thuja o. seedlings. 26 cups in coir and 34 in 511 mix.

All the new seeds in the small coir cups sprouted. Pretty good for late collected seed, leftover in the dried, open scaled cones, that looked small and maybe too dry.

So I have 22, 3oz. cups with multiple sprouts in each and only 14 empty cups in the third tray. I can maybe squeeze a few more cups into the fourth tray too (with the pine cups) so could end up with more pots/cups than originally planned for (78).

Life is good. :-)

3 oz. cups with new seed sprouts.

Should be down to having only a watering schedule, in a week or two.

1-14-2021

Glad I separated the pines when I did last Friday.

During watering today, I noticed this on several 'pots' of p. banksiana.

Except for this one cup, I won't have to disturb the roots on the others.

Another realization. I haven't seen one fungus gnat. Maybe the enclosure with fans going 24/7 keeps them from establishing themselves? I'm not complaining. :-)

Yes, the fans keep the gnats away. Or, at least, mostly away. I think they just aren't strong enough fliers to overcome the constant breeze.

That means I'll have to keep one fan going. I've heard never to grow trees in a calm environment anyways, they just don't get strong enough to stand by themselves.

Today I transplanted the newest seedlings into the barren 20 pots. Those'll be a couple of weeks behind the first batch but by June there shouldn't be a lot of difference.

So, I'm back up to 4 trays, 103 pots, 18 with pines and the rest Thuja o.

Who says you can't work in your garden in January in Minnesota? :-)

post date: 1-18-2021

Just for the record, I switched the plants from the coco coir mix over to 511.

The coir stayed moist for so long and when I checked, the plants weren't making very many roots and those were staying along the top of the media.

Also, it appeared that the blue (salts?) from the fertilizer was accumulating at the top level of the media. I've been bottom watering so no 'wash through'?

So everything now is in 511 mix and I learned what I wanted to find out from this experiment. This also should make the watering schedule much simpler.

As far as the R.H. is concerned, it's too hard to control. I get up to 60% right after watering but the lows stay in that 33% to 43% most of the time. Way better than what I had before the 'chamber' was built. So it's all good as far as I'm concerned. We'll just call it a day and let things grow for a while. :-)

2-5-2021

A peek into the chamber this AM.

P. banksiana

Now you’ve done it, Bill. I’m feeling very feverish - spring feverish!

Are those seedlings? All my seedlings are outside, no chamber needed. RH is 80-100%. See picture for typical range of temps and humidity, this is for today. You get down to 30% humidity? How?

Axel,

This is as early in the year as I've started conifer seeds (about the 3rd or 4th year I've grown trees from seed).

The P. banksiana were brought in from cold stratification on 12-21-2020 and were sprouting up within a week.

We heat our houses inside during the winter and forced air heat has a reputation from being very dry in nature.

So we don't get the humidity down to 30% we get it up to 30%. :-)

Before the chamber, my RH was more like 15% this time of year.

We're in two different worlds, you & me. :^)

2-18-2021

Humidity has been running generally around 50%.

I think the reason it's up is because I had a small catastrophe with CRF and have been 'Flush watering' 2 of the trays with pure water, almost every day, for the last two weeks.

I think this is what happened:

When I removed the Thuja from the pure bark mix (that originally contained the CRF), I used that same bark to make more 511 mix.

When I added the peat and perlite, I vigorously mixed the ingredients together with a large spoon. That must've burst the little balls of fertilizer and it released the N all in one shot.

Nothing died, thank goodness but it did set the one tray back a week or two. Who would've thought?

The Thuja o. that were unaffected by the 'catastrophe' are looking good!

Everything else is looking good. 3 of the 18 Pinus b. are showing dwarf tendencies. Just a guess and too early to tell but needles are much shorter and they have half the growth of the other trees, that are now >3" tall.

relative humidity.

==>>> i have found. the less relatives involved in the process.. the higher the odds of success ...

especially if there are so may of them around.. they are raising the relative humidity ...

with quarantining and whatnot this season .. i presume it hasnt been much of an issue ...

ken

Update: (3-8-2021)

As things progressed, I've been able to water on say a Monday and then not again until Friday (every fifth day?). The top 3/4" of the 5-1-1 gets dry but some moisture shows inside, the rest of the way down, except right at the very bottom, which gets dry enough to keep the roots from trying to escape out the drain holes. :o)

One tray of Thuja o. is doing very well although I believe it's a few weeks behind due to the Fertilizer mishap. Another of the 3 trays is beginning to grow again but too is set back about a month. The third tray is questionable with some growth happening but a persistent yellow/orange in color. Might be a loss.

Humidity inside the chamber easily hangs over 55% all day, with the door closed. If I loosen the door hook, the door, it leaves a narrow opening at the bottom half and the RH stays ~45% during the day.

The Pinus b. are over 4" tall and quite full with long needles, except for a few.

I'm also starting a few seeds of Larix laricina, Picea abies and Pinus resinosa for future root stock, in case the grafting bug hits me after sitting in on the ACS Zoom presentation grafting class. In a couple of years of course. :-)

There was plenty of seeds in the Pinus r. cones to set an additional 54 2oz. cups of those for back up, in case all the Thuja don't make it.

Good thing about starting early, there's still time to start more seeds in the case of a catastrophe. ;-)

Good roots on the Thuja: They seem to like those tall, narrow cups.

Humidity chamber is almost full and I still need room to start my DW's Hollyhocks. I'm going today and see if I can cram another light in there. ;-)

Pines:

I wish I came across this thread earlier. So much valuable info here! Your seedlings look great. I wish I can grow tree seeds like that. My chamaecyparis obtusa seedlings I germinated last year in May is still less than 2 inches tall.. don’t know how you get yours so big so quickly.

When you transplant your seedlings into individual pots, do you just pluck them out holding them with your 2 fingers by the tip or do you carefully dig out around the rootball?

Hi Heruga.

It's Magic! haha!

I just tip the contents of the pot/cup into my hand, then set the cup aside and place what's in my hand into a container of water. After a couple of minutes in the water, the media simply dissolves, falls off the roots and settles to the bottom (the plant floats). This might take a little gentle persuasion, nudging the root ball to get some movement so all the media falls off the roots.

Then, yes, I pick the plants up/out, one at a time, with two fingers and let the roots dangle into/over a hole, made in a prefilled cup/pot of growing media. Next I sprinkle more media in and around the roots, occasionally using a spray bottle of water to settle the media down around the roots, as things progress.

It's so easy that once you've done it a few times, you'll wonder why you didn't do it this way before! :-)

It's vitally important to start giving your plants a weak solution of a good fertilizer, as soon as the damping off danger is past.

My only addition to Bill's comment above is to be careful when tipping the contents into your hand. The seedlings are delicate and will most likely have hardened off their trunks, meaning you can easily snap them in two if you drop them too vigorously into your palm. But much depends on what kind of media you use and how big each cell or container is.

Absolutely correct DeanW45!

If there's many sprouts in one cup/pot, that's more difficult than if there's only one or two sprouts to a cup.

My method is to place my fingers, against the media with sprouts in between the fingers, so the media bears the weight. Don't get the sprouts between your fingers and the media or you could crush them.

Many times I've slid the media out with the cup tipped sideways onto my hand, by pushing in on the bottom of the cup (cups are somewhat flexible). Then just lower the whole works down into the water with the plants sort of horizontal to the surface of the water.

If you do many pots, change the water out or too much media will cloud up the water making it difficult to see. You could loose a plant or two. Don't ask me how I know. ;-)

Update:

It appears I might have 2 trays of Thuja o. survive and grow, although quite a set back on the one. The third tray did not die but by the looks of it, most of the plants in that one are from the Thuja seeds that were planted a few weeks later than the first ones. Those seem to have taken more of a 'hit' from the fert accident and don't know if they'll make it. I'll let them be for a while but might discard them if I need more room before spring.

Got a new 3 ft. L. light installed 'in the gap', wish I had ordered 2 as there's room (barely but still). :-)

The jack pines are doing very well, most of them look to be pretty normal. One of the three previous smaller ones has been having a 'growth spurt' and may resemble the others soon.

Here's a picture of one that's nicest, less than 3 months old and 16 of the 18 look similar in size to this one:

The first Red pine seed sprouted yesterday (day 12). This seem slower than usual but these are my first P. resinosa from seeds so they might just be that way.

I think I've found the Pinus b. to go in the yard this spring. It has a stout trunk, densely branched with unusual needle formations. I'll keep an eye on it to see how it develops.

The only other small one is unremarkable but I may keep it as a 'pollinator' for the tree above? Not many Jack pines in this immediate area.

No seeds in the Larix and Picea trays have sprouted. They were from old dry cones so may not have been viable.

:-)

3-29-21

Having no scientific way of determining any differences in growth between 15% RH and 30%-55% RH, here are a few observations about the setup shown earlier in the thread:

I still haven't seen one fungus gnat since the beginning of this trial. Not saying there wasn't any but I didn't see any and with the strong lights, I should've noticed if there was. Either way, there was no concern about FG feeding on the fine roots of the tiny new seedlings to any great extent.

The length of time between watering increased. This was particularly beneficial during the germination and early growth stages imo. It also gave me more time away from home without concerns of plants desiccating within a couple of days. :-) The tiny sprouted seedlings seemed to like the higher RH the most.

Temperatures were a little more difficult to control, especially this spring when temperatures began to rise in the basement area. I don't like to see ambient temps go above 80F. The remedy, increased venting of the chamber. This was accomplished by wedging the door open about 3/4" the entire height. Even with the wedge, the RH remained at 30%-33% all day. I would close the door completely at night, keeping ambient temps ~74F and RH ~50%.

Damping off was minimal with the initial planting. 3 trays used a course barky mixed media and a coir layer on top to set the seeds. The 4th tray was pure coil with perlite. The pure coir was the best germination of any but I feel I should've increased the thickness of the coir layer on the other 3 trays. Those dried out plenty fast and most likely was the reason for lower germination rates.

Hope everyone has a great 2021 growing season! :-)

4-28-2021

Final update!

Just thought I'd post how everything turned out.

I'm just starting to get outside. Today I put in a new bed along the garage, for some hollyhocks that were added to the list and germinated well (3 days) for being eleven year old seeds. (rhubarb upper left looking healthy).

Hollyhocks from seed, upper left on table below. They germinated earlier than planned so I had to up-pot them into 20 oz. pots already (can't plant out for a couple of weeks yet).

The 9 Red pine & 3 Picea g. seedlings (lower right) were started late as replacements but are looking good and everything got put outside today to acclimate in the sun.

Thuja o. (38 count upper right) still not looking too great but are still growing. oh well, we learn something every year. :-)

I up-potted the two (possibly dwarf) Pinus b. (lower left) into much larger (3 qt.) pots, for observation and they might stay there for more than this season, we'll see how they maintain.

The other 15 Pinus b. (middle left) grew like crazy and will stay in the cups until they get planted to the woods along with the Thuja, in a month or so.

Rest of the Hollyhocks (10 pots total) and two sickly Thuja o. that are still testing my patience. :-)

That'll do it for this years seedlings.

Thanks all!

Addison said: 'Keep us posted on your broom!'

Update: 8-29-21

Here's few pictures.

Not completely hardened off but the Pinus banksiana has 15-20 winter buds that have formed. Half of those I would call 'terminal buds' at the end of branch tips and the rest coming off around the sides of the terminal buds in various directions.

<more to come>

I can only count about nine individual branches, the longest is less than an inch long but it's still early and a few more might be hidden inside.

The trunk is almost 1/4" diameter.

eta: replaced picture to show other side of plant.

<stay tuned>

Thanks for the update.

tj

Sorry to report that the dwarf jack pine, with numerous branchlets, has died.

Possibly root rot from a very wet Fall, even though my potting mixture was a good one.

The little, unremarkable jack pine survived (barely) and has put out new growth this spring.

I put one of the creeping juniper rooted cuttings in the empty spot which should be a good companion plant for the pine.

And just a side note.

There was some significance, to me at least, in planting this little Pinus banksiana. It means I now have specimens of all 10 conifers (trees) that are native to Minnesota growing in my yard.

That may seem silly to some but was a goal I made for myself some time ago after I took ownership of this empty, barren yard.

8-3-22

Update on the 'The little, unremarkable jack pine'. :-)

The tree grew about 2" on the main stem. It also grew a branch about 3/4" long at the top of the old growth and one just opposite to that, was ~1/4"L.

I noticed winter buds forming at a few places. Terminal end, branch tips etc.

Then after a hot spell, I noticed several places began second flush and none were directly from the winter buds but more off to the sides of the buds. Even the 1/4" branch has a few new needles coming out the end.

This could get interesting; this tree was propagated from seed collected from cones off of a witches broom. So what seemed like an ordinary seedling early on, could hold some genetic surprises to come.

End of report.

8^)

8-22-22

That thick flush of second growth, on top, didn't come with regular long Pinus b. needles. It's growing into an upright branch with short needles protruding out from center of terminal end.

Just thought it was interesting. Possibly growing its own witch's broom already at an early age?

4" of rain in the last 2 weeks and highs in the 80'sF, has us in a 'rain forest' environment.

8-24-22

Just noticed the putative WB set a terminal bud since I last posted. :-) 1-1/2"L.

Walked by the little jack pine today. I wanted to check it because a week or so ago, it looked like the terminal winter buds next to, for lack of a better word, the witches' broom, looked green and were beginning to grow, with all the hot weather we were having.

Well, it looked like they had started to grow, but now looked as if it had stopped again and was hardening off. Whew! I didn't know what to think. Cooler nights must've slowed it down.

There are a lot of things going on with this one. And I suppose we won't know until next year, but I thought I'd show, what I think are interesting happenings going on.

Down near the base, maybe 3/4" off the ground, there's 'Tuft' of needles. I couldn't really see if there's a terminal bud at the end, so not sure if a branch will appear of if it's another anomaly.

One eighty on the other side of the trunk there's similar growth.

There even some needle sheaths that appear to have more than two needles.

This is a lower branch with at least 3 winter buds and unusual fascicles.

And there's buds coming out of everywhere. Some so small, not sure if they'll shoot next spring or not. There sure are enough large ones the way it is, when you think how small this tree is (5"?).

In case you can't tell, I'm kind of excited. This tree that was on deaths door, recovered and is remarkably healthy.

Makes me wonder if the other frillier jack pine died just because it was just too weird to 'make it'.

That's all for now. Have to see if this zone 2 plant will make our winter. That can vary.

Hopefully we'll get some snow cover. There I go hoping for snow already. :-?

:^)

I've seen the "short-needle" tendency on some of my hard pines like loblolly pine. They make a partial second-flush which does not fully grow (not enough time?). But the flush does develop terminal buds and it just continues the next season w/a section of shorter needles present on the stem.

The other, 'frillier' seedling, that died had almost entirely 'Tufts' for branches. We'll never know now how it would've grown this season.

This one here that survived was so plain to start with, with almost no sprouts but now is starting to show some 'pazazz'. :^)

I protected this with rabbit fence, topped with bird netting. Deer has a tendency to nip the new growth 'candles' on jack pine, early spring before much else is growing. This should keep them looking elsewhere for easier snacks.

5-13-2023

I've been using this thread for tracking the lone surviving ('Dwarf'?) Jack pine, grown from seed derived from cones of a 'witches broom'. So, I'll just update here again. The candles are just beginning to 'needle' and there appears to be nodes within close proximity to each other.

Pinus banksiana 'unnamed variety'. ;-)

View #1: Looking NNW.

View #2: Looking ENE. Several new growths coming low on the trunk.

View #3: Looking SSE.

View #4: Looking WSW.

I have no idea what, if anything, special I'm supposed to do, raising this tree but from what I understand, it needs to grow at least 5 years to confirm that it is indeed a 'Dwarf' before it can be recognized as such. I really don't care, I'm satisfied that out of 20 or so trees I grew from the WB seed, I ended up with 2 that inherited genetic tendencies of the parent. So, it will be my 'special yard tree' no matter what. :-)

5-24-2023

Results are in.

My P. banksiana has exceeded the 6" annual growth limit for it to be considered a dwarf variety (lower left side).

Doesn't make much difference for me, I still needed this species to complete my goal of having all 10 conifer trees, that are native to MN, growing in my yard (I also have both native juniper shrubs and only native to MN yew). So, this is fine. I may resort to candle pruning, in the future, to keep this one in good form.

Pinus banksiana: May possibly still be an intermediate. ;-)

eta:

7-4-23: update:

The young pine is putting out another 'flush'.

I don't think I've ever seen so much second growth so early in the season.

So far, a well-balanced 'form'.

7-22-2023:

I may have solved a mystery about this tree.

I was checking out the lammas growth yesterday. It appeared it was hardening off; you could see the winter buds ripening/browning (note there isn't a branch segment longer than 5" or so).

A couple of weeks ago, I thought it unusual how the new growth spread out into multiple leaders (5), with no center leader.

Yesterday, I noticed a short growth in the center that looked a little odd, so I stopped to check it out.

.

Then the epiphany, the parent broom wasn't necessarily a dwarf, but branching segments were shorter and closer together than a 'normal' Jack Pine and that made it appear denser than normal JP.

So, if this tree continues to grow in this same manner, perhaps I'm getting just what can be expected from all this and will look like a clone of the parent broom.

I never got a close-up picture of the parent broom, but you can see in the only picture I have of the broom, how its growth form differs from the rest of the tree, not that it's a small or tiny broom, it's just denser with shorter segments. Anyone still with me on this? ;-)

.;-)

Makes sense as it would greatly multiply the number of "co"-dominate stems.

Will need more time but appears it's the direction that it's going.

A plus side: it's a plant that thrives in poor sandy soil and can endure dry spells so not a lot of care needed.

Thanks, beng!

eta: added picture:

8-11-2023:

This one should be done for the season imo.

The only 'weird' grow on this P. banksiana that was obvious, was the shorter than normal, lammas growth (compared to the rest of the branches) at the terminal end of the central leader and some short needles that originated from around the base of the winter bud there.

Even though I've been using a scent deer deterrent in the yard, there have been some signs of deer activity in the yard from time to time. Nothing too serious but I don't like to take chances with my more 'important to me' plantings, especially with 'buck rubbing time' just around the corner. Otherwise, my only concern is rabbits, and deer reaching over and nipping buds/candles next spring.

:-)

9-14-2023:

End of season update:

Pinus banksiana (species) near 20" tall.

:-)

10-28-2023:

FWIW: I found an up-close picture of peice of the P. banksiana broom from 1-1-2020. Short thickly floriated branches.

Below is a picture of the tip of the main leader on my tree from wb seed. There are 'more than normal' multiple winter buds formed but we'll have to see if all of them sprout next spring. ;-)

just thinking again. :-)