I'm in Zone 5, with CPM in the ground for the last 9 years as own-root. CMP likes it wet, it's a spreading & BIGGEST BUSH among my 130 roses, CPM needs 5 feet around IN ALL DIRECTIONS . I winterized some roses in pots inside my unheated garage, but with a thick thermal blanket on top (water once a month) .. they survived the STEADY COLD temp., but the minute I bring it outside early May, they died if there's frost. Here in my zone 5, last day of frost is END OF MAY. ROSES DON'T LIKE THE FLUCTUATING TEMP. if kept in a pot outside, even in May !! Austin roses like CPM can survive if roots are UNDER THE GROUND since it's steady cold temp. & insulated by at least 1 feet of soil above. After losing roses in pots when I brought out too early in spring, I don't bring them out from the garage until near end of May.

Insulation does not create heat. All it does is slow down temperature change. So if you have a 3 day stretch when the temperature never goes about 5F, an insulated pot is going to spend a lot of time below zero. Which is why the usual recommendation for zone 5 is to keep the pots in an attached garage that gets a fair amount of heat from the house.

BTW, roses perform very differently in the midwest than they do in the northeast. We don't get the type of summer heat that encourages modern roses to grow.

Mad Gallica, thank you. My thought about the insulation was that it would provide some protectIon from the fast freeze/thaw it might otherwise suffer from in the pot, rather than thinking it would maintain warmth. I know roses need to be cold and remain at a fairly even, cold temp in winter. CPM is labeled for z4, which is colder than our average temps. I was hoping that would make some measure of difference.

When you mentioned the differences in midwestern/NE climates, did you mean to infer the that you believe CPM will not grow as vigorously here as it does in StrawChigago’s area, so that I may still be able to follow through with my original plan to overwinter in the garage or covered porch?

Shay Zone5a thanks for posting the pics. CPM is vigorous since I fixed my clay with sand and gypsum .. I once threw gypsum in a pot and Munstead Wood threw a 3 feet octopus cane (it was small & compact before this). My CPM is 9th-year own-root rose & in a VERY WINDY location (north-west) with only 4 hours of sun, so I had to make its canes bigger with gypsum/sulfate of potash so canes don't break in our strong wind. IS YOUR ROSE OWN ROOT OR GRAFTED ON Dr.Huey? Thanks.

BURLAP IS NOT ENOUGH FOR WINTER SURVIVAL. Two neighbors wrapped their tree-roses in burlap and they died through zone 5a winter. What I did one winter with a raised bed: I collected HUGE BAGS of grass-clippings or leaves from neighbors, then built a WALL OF YARD-WASTE-BAGS (stuffed to 4 feet high with organic matter) along the raised bed. All the tiny 1st-year own-root roses survived that winter of -20 below zero, with wind-chill factor of -30. I'm in a VERY WINDY LOCATION.

In your pic., the wall provides insulation on one side. I would put HUGE BAGS of potting soil AROUND THE POT, or tall-yard-waste bags stuffed with leaves or grass clippings. To protect the top of the pot .. I post the info. later.

CPM is cane hardy to 2 to 3 feet tall. Mine is protected on one side by the wall of the house, but located in a shady & cool wind-tunnel. Since your rose is in a pot (not enough minerals like my rock-hard clay), I WOULD NOT PRUNE it much. It takes lots of fertilizer in a pot to re-generate canes if pruned too hard.

Freeze-thaw as an issue is, IMHO, very overrated. I've spent too much of my life in the land of freeze-thaw, AKA Pennsylvania, to take it remotely seriously.

You have to take the hardiness labels for roses with a very large (car sized) grain of salt. There are distinct levels of hardiness.

• tip hardy in your zone - no dieback from cold in a normal winter
• cane hardy - perceptible dieback, but at least half the rose survives
• snowline hardy - canes die back to the snow level of the coldest night
• crown hardy - no cane survival, but the rose is still technically alive
• not hardy - absolutely no signs of life

The painful truth is that the hardiness ratings for a modern rose with a publicity department usually correspond to somewhere between the two last categories. It will not reliably overwinter in zone 4, and if it does, it will have a great deal of growing to do to get back to where it was when it was purchased. Since a lot of roses around here have issues with that kind of regrowth, a local people refer to it as 'the dwindles'. The rose gets smaller every year until it isn't worth growing. It technically has not been killed by winter, but a lack of hardiness is the real issue. Basically roses aren't like perennials, where a zone 4 plant is going to be fine in zone 5 unless it has some serious issues with the site. And while I don't have any knowledge of CPM, I have in the past accused Austin of using the pub method of determining hardiness ratings. It basically involves a dartboard and a fair amount of Guinness.

So you are trying to grow what is probably a real-world zone 6 rose in a pot in zone 5. It is going to need heat, and a fair amount of it to survive.

Straw what size pots did you have your first year own roots in? I am going to have to have some roses in pots this winter and I am debating whether it would be better for them to be in the garage which is uninsulated and has to be open for several hours a day on the weekends (my husband has his metalworking shop in one end) I could toss an old quilt over the pots to protect them; or I could put them up against the end of the garage outside where the snow drifts heavily and they would be completely buried until spring but it is a north facing wall. Some of the roses are in 2 gallon pots, some are in 5 gallon buckets, and some are currently in 1 gallon pots but I am hoping to get those planted up into more 5 gallon buckets before winter.

Joey: I had them in 3-gallon styrofoam pots (very thick) on sale from Dollar-Store. For your dilemma, I lean toward "against the end of the garage OUTSIDE where the snow drifts heavily and they WOULD BE BURIED until spring next to north facing wall." Here are the problems I faced keeping in a UNHEATED & DARK garage: Nuisance to water them, plus I tend to over-water and made a big mess on the garage's floor. My tap-water pH is too high at 9 and that made the soil harder.

Your pots outside would be protected on one side by the garage, and THE OTHER SIDE CAN BE PROTECTED by a "wall" of yard-waste bags (filled with leaves). Plus it gets plenty of snow so it won't dry out. The snow blanket will UP your zone by 1.

The advantage of NORTH WALL: LESS SUN TO FLUCTUATE THE TEMP, creating a thaw (by warm sun), then freeze (by night time). Thaw, then freeze is what crack the tissue of stems.

I would HEAP LEAVES on top of those pots by 1 foot, after they are cushioned by the garage wall on one side, and "row-of-yard-waste-bags" on the other side.

The advantage of topping with leaves are: 1) keep the soil below wet, even if there's no snow for 2 weeks. 2) Insulate the rose's crown below to keep it steady cold temp. If leaves are not available, then horse manure.

I winter-protected tiny-bands OUTSIDE by cutting off the bottom of a plastic pot, invert it over the rose to make a "plastic circular ring". then fill that up with horse manure .. all 4 Austin bands survived its 1st winter, despite being only 6 inch. tall. They are now 10-year-old own-roots roses.

Rosemary herb is NOT hardy in my zone 5, despite a very deep root. It FAILED to over-winter many times when planted in southern & hot sun exposure, next to the house. The warm sun heated it up, then night-freeze .. too drastic of a temp. fluctuation. The only time it over-wintered was planted in a north location, zero sun, next to the garage wall.

Thank you so much!! I'll do that! You made my husband very happy too knowing that his workshop won't be overtaken by pots all winter. :) Would bales of straw stacked in front of them be helpful or not really?

Bales of straw is even better & sturdier. The strong wind here knocked over my yard-waste bags (filled with leaves) many times. Plus rain water got inside the yard-waste bags, and the bottom of paper bag TORE OFF in spring. For insulation around the sides I prefer GIANT PLASTIC BAGS of MG-potting soil over paper-bag-yard-waste.

Shay Zone5a To protect the top of CPM, I suggested 2 Styrofoam pots (stacked on top of each other) inverted over CPM rose if outside, but that's NOT a good solution, since that blocks out rain-water & snow. A better solution is a sturdy tomato or peony cone. A burlap or old blanket can be sewn AROUND the wire-cone. Stick that cone around CPM, then fill that up to 2 feet of wood chips ... the cone itself is 3 feet tall.

Another solution is an empty 5-gallon paint bucket, cut off the bottom, invert that over a rose, and fill the inside with horse manure or wood-chips. I have better result with DRY wood chips or horse manure than wet leaves ... wet leaves tend to cause black canker on canes with its acidity. I prefer Menards' VERY WIDE 3.5 gallon bucket, sold for $3, that allows more insulating wood-chips to be stuffed along the side to protect the crown up to 1 foot, yet allow rain & snow to get in, see 2nd pic.:

Shay CPM is lovely. For me it dies back to the ground every year, I do not know that it would be a climber for you in your zone. As for overwintering in pots, I’ve not tried it - too many things that can go wrong, I tend to stick everything in the ground.

Straw, I had a small amount of DA mycorrhizal fungi which I mixed into the planting hole, and I also mixed in a bit of Epsoma Rose time. I don’t know how much better or worse than gypsum those two additives are, but hopefully they give her a boost! I’ll look into getting some gypsum as well. I might add some to a Teasing Georgia that is putting out new growth right now. Would it be way too much/shocking to add some to the top of the pot with some composted manure? I believe CPM is grafted, but it’s difficult for me to say. I will attach a photo.

Do you think bales of hay around CPM would be
recommended over bags of potting soil? Potting soil can easily be done. Our local nursery sells nice big bags of mixed loam and compost they bag up themselves. I think that is a very good idea. It is certainly encouraging you had so much success keeping little roses alive in this manner. I noticed in your response to Joey that you said the snow piled around the pots would up the zone by 1. Should I have my husband heap the snow he shovels from the landing around the bags and pot of CPM?

We do not have a Menard’s in our area, but I will get a rose cone for all the roses.

Thank you for the information about cane hardiness. Is that specific to your area, or in general? You’ve been very informative, and I appreciate your advice very much. The photos of your CPM are gorgeous! How tall is she?

Mad Gallica, thank you for offering your opinions and sharing your experiences. I would like to remain hopeful and will keep my fingers crossed that with some protections and precautions I can keep mine alive, until experience (hopefully doesn’t!) cause me to revisit this thread and write… You told me so!

The five levels of hardiness are not something I had heard of before – nothing is black and white, is it? Thank you for explaining it so well. I hope I don’t wind up with dwindlers! It would be awfully dishonest to label a true z6 rose as a z4… I sure hope that’s not the case and
will keep my fingers crossed!

Thank you, Dingo. Do you provide winter protection or just let them tough it out? Not sure that the ground is an option for this one…
Although I admit, this whole pickle has caused me to begin eyeing my side garden and imagining all the rearranging I might attempt at one point to accommodate more roses. I hope you are well!

I realize what I did wrong last winter with CPM in its 9th-year as own-root. I got distracted with my Mom's sickness & her death in mid Oct. that I forgot to pile up leaves on top of CPM's crown. It was a dry winter with zero snow, so 1/2 of CPM canes died (where it was uphill), but the down-hill part (moister) had 3 feet green canes. Reminding myself of the below for next winter: "Mound soil up around the canes of the rose bush about 6 to 10 inches deep. Add mulch to the top, and leaves or evergreen boughs in the canes as described above. The rose bushes here were pruned down after the first freeze so the entire shrub can be protected by the mulch on top of the mounded soil."

protect roses in winter

"These rose bushes have soil mounded deep at the base to protect the roots. Then this porous fabric (this is probably row cover fabric,burlap works to) was wrapped around the roses. The “container” was filled with leaves and secured at the top. " This second method is wrapping the ENTIRE pot & rose in a bag full of leaves, like a "mummy".

Grafted, or own root? Came in a three gallon pot. Seems like own root to me, but I am not sure.

Straw, I am sorry to hear about the loss of your mother. I am glad your rose made it through. Thank you for the updated recommendations!

Shay

Hi Shay! That looks grafted to me, and looks like it came on the DA green pot, so likely Is grafted unless the tag specifically said own root. In colder zones the graft usually needs to be buried several inches to protect it.

To answer your earlier question I do not do much in the way of winter protection. I do try to make sure all my beds are well mulched by the time the ground freezes & that’s about it. i try to plant stuff that doesn’t require additional help, because we all get busy in real life, and it‘s one less thing to worry about. I just don’t have the time or patience to be fussing with “extras”, I barely get the work done that needs to be done lol. I have a wonderful crop of thistles, wild violets, and creeping charley this year. You can always give it a try! CPM is readily available so if she doesn’t make it you can pick up a new one! You don’t know till you try 😀.

Shay: David Austin catalog 2019 offered some own-roots, but I look through David Austin Catalog 2020 .. own-roots are no longer offered through them. From your pic., it's a grafted-rose. If your rose is bought from David Austin, then it's grafted-on-Dr.Huey, and this aggressive root-stock will take over if the bud-union (where the green branches come out) IS NOT BURIED at least 4 inch. below ground. When Dr.Huey takes over, you'll get Dr.Huey blooms (dark-red single-petals) rather than CPM's blooms (yellow/orange).

If your roses are bought from Palatine or Hortico, then it's grafted on multiflora, another aggressive root-stock that takes over but produces tiny single-petal white flowers.

Dr.Huey's typical trait is tons of blooms in 1st years, but very stingy in 3rd year and latter. My CPM is own-root so the 1st year is whitish-thin-cluster root and was very stingy the 1st year (only 1 bloom & other folks had the same complaint), but as it matures it blooms tons. If you scroll up to the top, the 2nd pic. of my CPM was taken this July 2020.

I'm concerned since your bud-union is higher than the soil-level, it should be buried at least 4 inch. below ground to ensure that the root-stock won't take over when the upper branches die through the winter. I had seen roots of my 130 varieties as own-root, plus I root roses from cuttings and own-roots never look chunky & fat & woody like that. I have a few roses grafted-on-Dr.Huey and multiflora, and the grafted-on-Dr.Huey has a longer & fatter stick than multiflora. See pic. below, the bud-union should be buried 4" below soil in cold-zone so the root-stock won't take over when the upper canes die through winter. My experience with Dr.Huey-rootstock in a pot: it doesn't handle acidic rain well when that accumulates in the pot, and will break out in black spots in heavy rain.

Oy vey. Looks like I’ll be digging up and reburying three roses today! 🤪

Does this mean I should expect good bloom from all my DAs for a couple of years and then a decline in blooms the third year? It makes more sense to me that is this already a three year old plant based on the size it is now.

Shay: Per your questions, I find that big & tall plastic bags of potting soil is easier to pack around pots for winter-protection. Carol in Canada, zone 4 asked me many questions about fertilizing roses for her many pots for high-rain & cold climate, and I answered them in below post:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5950727/tell-me-a-story-2#25847167

As to the decline in blooms, that's what I notice with Cantigny rose park here with 1,200 roses and clay soil. 1st-year-Austin roses (grafted on Dr.Huey) is impressive with THICK STEMS like yours and tons of blooms. 2nd-year they come down with black spots. 3rd-year with very few blooms & then gone by 4th year. In zone 5, the first roots that get killed through water-logged clay are small & hairy cluster roots that grow out at the end of the LONG Dr.Huey's stick. That explains why my Young Lycidas (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) was a constant bloomer in 1st year, but a non-blooming tiny rose on big-fat-Dr.Huey-rootstock after all the cluster roots zapped out by cold & wet clay in 2nd year.

That's why own-roots are best for cold-zone .. own-root starts out as cluster-root and STAYS as cluster roots longer. Cluster roots are more efficient in water and phosphorus & potassium-uptake for blooming. Multiflora-rootstock is better than Dr.Huey for cold climate & high rain-region. Dr. Huey-rootstock is best for dry & alkaline California, where it's grown.

It's less so with Chicago Botanical Garden with loamy soil, roots can go deeper in loamy soil than clay, thus the blooming is not affected by cluster-roots being killed by cold winter. It's less so with single-petal roses like Knock-out with a lesser demand for water & nutrients than zillion-petal-water-hog Austin roses. I have many Knock-outs grafted-on-Dr.Huey (over 15 years old). When I dug a few up, Dr.Huey extended 4 feet away with cluster roots, plus own-root was formed ABOVE THE BUD-UNION (where grafting is done), such roses continue to bloom well after a decade.

Winter protection in the east kills. Winters are too unstable temperature wise, and too wet for it to do anything else. You have to find something that will not hold moisture when it is 40 and raining, and 2 ft of snow melted in the last few days, and at the same time, has some sort of insulation properties when it is -10. All the usual suspects hold too much water. Rose cones in particular are famous for growing very interestingly colored fungus colonies.

You can happily grow roses around here. You just have to either adjust your expectations to what the roses are capable of doing under adverse circumstances, or grow roses that like your climate. I do the second one, and am therefore forced to deal with horrendous spectacles like this.

Mad Gallica, I’m cracking up! What a horrendously offensive spectacle that is, indeed! It’s so pretty I’m offended by it’s beauty! 😂

I am happy to say I just called the nursery in Kennebunk, Maine where my father got CPM and received advice from someone with experience growing DA roses in my area. The woman I spoke with works directly with a rosarian who works exclusively with DA roses. She told me my roses are own root, and to pile compost on top of each crown about a foot high, as is, in the fall. She used to live in my area and successfully grew 20+ DA roses for a decade. I am going to take that advice, and the advice regarding the potted rose from both of you, and hope for the best!

And, hi Dingo! To yo it point, if they fail I will have learned a lesson the hard way and will replace. Although I don’t want to!

I hear your point about less time for the “extras“, but I enjoy it. Taking care of the garden gives me my own time to quiet my mind at the beginning and end of the day with four busy kids at home. 🙂

Shay: So happy to hear that it's an own-root that you got from a nursery, rather than from David Austin. I was a bit worried when I looked through 2020 David Austin catalog and can't find any own-root roses like they used to offer in previous years. Own-roots are so much easier for cold zone .. I never have to worry about Dr.Huey taking over. I have seen Dr.Huey taking over in houses for sale: Dr. Huey can get up to 20 feet tall & messy & ugly climber full of mildew.

Agree with Mad_gallica: Rose cones are NOT a good idea, tried them, and never again. However, rose cone can be used if the top is cut-off, then stuffed with compost or wood-chips to protect the crown of the rose .. that allows rain-water to get in. Rose cones (top-cut-off) is OK for the ground since bricks can be put at the base to prevent it being blown off by wind, but that's tricky to do in a pot.

Wood-chips or fluffy compost, piled up to 1 feet is the best way to protect roses through winter (down to -20 F here, with -30 windchill factor). In my last house of acidic clay, my neighbor winter-protected her 20+ hybrid teas up in a raised bed that way, and they all survive the worst winter & most snow of the decade. But I winter-protected my hybrid teas with wet & acidic leaves and got black cankers & dead roses. Roses like it moist, but NOT soaking wet feet buried in acidic wet leaves.