We pretty much have everything we need. Didn’t really need to buy more food, but did lay in a couple more pounds of coffee. Enough TP and the bidet that SWMBO made me install is looking pretty prescient. Lots of sanitizing stuff and other Covid-19 supplies of course.

The thing is, we’re not really “sheltering” at home. SWMBO is taking care of a friend who just had a knee replacement, now in the hospital but will be staying at the friends house this week. I’m still going to work - of course, I work by myself, so that’s a “safe” zone. I’m trying to get this ”Laurelhurst Neighbor To Neighbor” (LN2N) support group (my working name was “Adopt A Granny” by that was unpopular) off the ground. DS is home for spring break and at least the first month of spring term, though he’s not going out much as his friends are not around - one is self isolating (probably a cold but you never know), another couldn’t get back from Belgium before the travel ban, etc. T, a 22 y/o recent college grad, is living with us and she just went out on a date. A friend, about our age, will be staying here for Mar/Apr, she’s quite paranoid about the virus but has to work and can’t hole up in the house all day.

So, we have an exposure issue. Not sure what to do about it. We can keep the house sanitized and take precautions when out, but I don’t think we can literally stay home all the time.

Wow John, I think it was just a few days ago that somewhere I was reading a post of yours and thinking you sounded somewhat extreme in your caution. No longer! The risks are your choice so I won’t judge, other than to commend you for being so generous to others. Good luck my friend.

Fun2Bhere, which Gelson's? I was at the original Gelsons today around 10am. They were well stocked in quite a bit of produce and were putting out more. Not everything was available, but lots of greens and carrots (which I couldn't find on Friday after 5 markets), radishes, potatoes, onions, apples, grapes, a few Pixies and citrus.

Our local Market was almost stripped bare on Sunday.... except for the produce that couldn't be stored or frozen. Since that was what I was after I was happy. The only meat available was lamb. I like lamb and so picked up a couple of packages of rib chops and 2 more of ground lamb. I see Lulu Bergers in my future.

I need celery. It's not worth going looking for it...

I am 85 and I live alone. I do have nearby children. For many years I keep a good supply of this and that on hand. So for now at least I am prepared as I shopped ahead of time. Others did not, so they need a lot of things if they plan to stay at home and not come out again till this is over. I have no plans to go anywhere at all. My dog is taken care of too. More should have prepared for whatever might be ahead as best as they could.

I went to the store yesterday just to see how things were. I didn't need anything, except molasses for when I make my next batch of bran muffins.

Wow, empty shelves galore. No flour at all......is everyone really baking??? No dried or canned good nor paper products. Very little meat. I couldn't find the molasses, it wasn't in the baking section as I expected. Long lineups again.

Funny there was lots of produce! I was talking to someone afterwards and they said the price on produce was marked up......apples which are usually $2/lb were $5 each. i sincerely doubt that, but I wished I'd looked.

Darn I'm getting low on milk, so I'll head out today to a different store and see what I find.

I did a grocery pick-up yesterday. The parking lot was packed with folks going into the store, but there was only one other car in the pick-up area. I asked the guy who delivered the groceries to my car when was the best time to shop, maybe 6 a.m.? He said the store is packed at 6 a.m. They stock from close (1 a.m.) to open (6 a.m.) and folks are trying to get stuff before it is gone.

Just out of curiosity, I checked pick-up for Walmart and the chain grocery in my little town. Walmart‘s app said “no slots available for the next 7 days” and would not let me start a grocery order. The grocery’s app said “no slots available for the next 3 days” and would not let me start an order.

The grocers say their supply chains are fine. They just can't deal with the overbuying.

I am not happy with people who have been overbuying TP. I wonder if they plan to sell some of it on the black market. I think stores should put reasonable limits on how much one person can buy at a time, especially since so many people are unable to find TP after inconsiderate people have cleaned out the shelves. I am hoping that eventually people will no longer have places to store all the excess TP they have bought.

Follow-up on my post above: I can go one town over (23 miles which takes maybe 25 minutes) and get pick-up slots at Walmart and the grocery for almost anytime I want.

I think I got “rationed” on milk and eggs yesterday. I ordered 2 half-gallons of milk and 2 dozen eggs. I got one of each.

The golf course we live on is really busy today! Lots of self-isolation going on. HA!

Too true, Lars! It was only a couple of weeks ago that I bought four large packages because that was the minimum to get the sale price! It is possible to do without--TP is fairly newfangled--but yuck!

So, the LAUSD has had to give up the supervision centers, but a lot of the school districts have meal pickup areas at schools. They're sack meals, mostly, but for a lot of kids, any food is good food. The hospitality union, as reported on the news, and maybe other unions, is providing resources for their members, who have mostly been put out of work, as well as providing groceries to them. These are the populations I've been most concerned about. It's encouraging. The news also showed crowded beaches in Florida. Vacationers, who presumably will go home at the end of the week to spread whatever they've encountered. Sigh.

Today Trader Joe's had quite a lot of food. They instituted a TWO of anything LIMIT and the cashier stuck to it. When we don't hoard, there's more for everyone! Sprouts shelves were pretty empty.

I had to go to the pharmacy at a major national chain store (Ralph's) today and they had lots of food. There were some holes, but plenty of produce. Meat, dairy, eggs, water, TP and a couple other things were limited to two packages each. It wasn't overly busy there. Weekday normal. No depredations to the booze and chips aisle, so at least people are buying real food. :) Not much packaged bread, but lots in the bakery department, cheese snacks were mostly gone, no flour, little ketchup. That's what I saw walking by. I didn't even see the paper goods or cleaners.

I was able to buy the organic celery and bananas I wasn't able to get at TJ's on Saturday. I also got the heads of iceberg and cabbage, and a bag of mandarins. I was more anxious about the celery, which I thought I'd had but which had died, because I want it for chicken salad. I did buy mayonnaise. I'm not wasting my eggs making mayo.

They've closed Orange County, completely, except for medical workers, first responders and grocery workers. At least the government understands that people have to eat. But I worry about the food producers. The cows have to be milked, the beans have to be picked...

@Compumom11 I was at the Gelson's in Dana Point on Monday that had empty shelves. I stopped by the Trader Joe's on 17th in NPB today and was able to get a little bit of produce. As you said, they were limiting purchases to two of each item. They were out of eggs, low fat yogurt and chicken. I think I'm set for a little over a week now on fresh produce, so I probably won't try any more stores until after that time.

I hadn't been to our grocery in a week and was surprised by what was stocked, what was gone. At first glance the whole store seemed well-stocked. The produce section was completely full... but not a potato in sight - usually several large tables full of large bags of potatoes, plus bins. Canned beans, dry beans and every bag or box of rice gone. Canned veggies gone. Specialty breads well stocked, but not one loaf of regular or whole wheat bread, and like Jasdip, I was surprised that every single bag of flour was gone except a lonely bag of whole wheat, but lots of sugar. The meat section was filled with steaks and smaller offerings of chicken breasts, but no large cuts of meat or pork and not a single whole chicken. No seafood. No TP or cleaning supplies other than laundry detergent and the eco-friendly cleaners so popular just a few weeks ago.

I was amused by what was left in the 'gone' areas... Every bottle of Dawn was gone, but other brands of dishwashing liquids were well-stocked, and every container of Hellman's mayo and the store brand which tastes like Hellman's gone, but the Miracle Whip was totally untouched. Bottled and jugs of water gone, but lots of Gatorade and Powerade, including zero sugar. Even Pedialyte was stocked. Paper plates wiped out, but styrofoam plates in abundance (I assume because they are microwavable?)

Yep, a relative had to go to FL last week, and told me the beaches were full of college aged kids, all having a blast.

DH told me yesterday that the term 'Boomer Remover' was hitting the internet. I was appalled. Reminded me of the days when HIV/Aids had a negative name attached to it. I'm as non-violent a person as one can get, but I might just smack the heck out of some millennial if I hear that coming from their mouth!

Today although our local schools are closed the school buses went out on their routes to deliver food to kids. Plan on doing that for the next few weeks at least. From what I can tell on Facebook while they are still working out the details people are grateful and I think the kids are excited to see their buses.

agmiss, what a great idea! Here they are giving out the food , but they have to go to the school to get it.

Shame on me, but I never realized just how many kids depend on the schools not only for lunch but for breakfast too. And, I'm glad to see that the school people are stepping up to provided these badly needed meals.

Our district has a large percentage of free or reduced lunch recipients, and from the day schools closed they’ve been offering “grab and go” lunches for them.

2many, I'll smack them after you do!

Here the school buses are also running their normal routes, delivering a lunch for today and a breakfast for tomorrow. If you aren't on the bus route you can pick that up at school, or the parent can go to the school and pick up a box that will be one week's worth of groceries. Any child under 18 or adults under 26 that are in the local school district for Special Education can pick up a lunch at the school, they don't have to be attending that school if they are under 18. The local Angels in Action will give any child under 18 a backpack containing a jar of peanut butter, one of jelly, and "nutritious snacks" like trail mix or granola bars. Manna Pantry and Feeding America are no longer allowing walk-ins, but if you call you can pick up a prepared box which will be waiting for you.

I think more and more people will be utilizing these services as time goes on, so we need to support our local food charities to enable them to be able to continue, and I intend to do just that. I let Madi and Maci pick out peanut butter and granola bars and dry cereal at the grocery store and put it into the collection bin for Angels in Action, it makes them feel they are "helping" and gives them a sense that there really is something we can do, even the children are not powerless and can help the less fortunate.

Annie

Annie:

when the grandkids get their stimulus checks, you can help them shop and gift, or encourage them to buy gift cards and donate those to the local food pantry. help two groups with one purchase of a gift card. Three, if you count the warm feeling of giving/sharing...

Thanks, Dave, that's actually a great idea. I used to take my girls when I shopped for groceries, back when there were still "double coupon" days. Anything that was BOGO or had a high coupon amount got donated to the local food pantry, so I'm happy to continue that with my grandkids.

I remember growing up really poor and sometimes being hungry because I wouldn't eat the hated cornmeal mush when there was nothing else, so thinking of the kids going without is something that really bothers me.

Annie

I went to WM shortly before 8 this morning, just to pick up a few cans of cat food that were on sale. Not an emergency by any means, but wanted to get some more.

There were about 10 of us outside waiting for the doors to open......all doing social distancing, several feet apart. UNTIL.......the doors opened, then everyone crowded in. LOL. A worker put yellow tape on the floor at the cashiers for the shoppers to stand at a distance.

Of course, they didn't have any Beef flavour that my cats like, so I walked out. Not a lot of stock still, and signs limiting 1 per customer, which is good.

I noticed in yesterday's flyer that prices are starting to climb. Our largest chain store is advertising a 5kg (10Lb) bag of Robin Hood flour for $7.99. That's the price I usually pay for a 10kg bag, (double!). If this is a sign of things to come, I am NOT impressed.

All pricing is supply and demand. We have anti-gouging laws in California. Maybe you can write to your relevant government members and suggest there's a need to do the same.

So many people here were already in precarious financial situations before this, getting them tended and fed is vital. Chef Nancy Silverton is giving food (I don't remember if other supplies as well) to restaurant workers who bring proof that they did have jobs in the industry. Most of the schools are giving out two sack meals daily to all kids under 18 no matter which school they were enrolled in. There's a plan to open a drive through food bank which will aslo give supplies at the L.A. county fairgrounds.

There's a lot of good happening towards coping with all this.

We need home testing. Test positive, stay home. Separate room. Family members test, all contacts test. Until tests show negative. Wishful thinking? Smart people in this world and those trying are getting shut down.

My brother with all the symptoms can't get a test. My SIL without symptoms does not know if she is positive. A possible carrier.

In NY school cafeterias are providing meals for pick-up.

NYC apartments are small, small fridge/freezers. Rarely cook. Some friends, with their neighbors, got together a few weeks ago and chipped in for small chest freezers and stocked up on TJ meals. Ahead of the rush and empty shelves. FreshDirect has been around for years for weekly delivery. Never needed it but I had a ten day delivery wait...out of eggs and some basics. With both of us home we would be fine but no eggs?. Delivered today. Out of so much but I have 2 dozen eggs now. No delivery dates available this month.

So I ordered from a restaurant wholesaler that opened up their service for home delivery. Ordered last night, coming tomorrow. DH cleaned out the old fridge meant for the garbage. 25yr old kitchen Aid. Never use it but for some garden harvest in the fall. Clean as new and works great. That puppy will be full tomorrow. Mostly root crops and bones for broth for soups. I have four meals planned for neighbors that might need it.

Why I need to be careful in sanitizing.

Well this Boomer came 2 hairs-breadth from getting "removed." And had I been not so lucky they would have most likely cheered. I'm full of blood clots, ugh. In spite of all the resources aimed at the Covid19 virus I have been very very well taken care of. But I read today that folks with Type O blood seem to be a lot better off than those with Type A. Sigh. So I'm not only already compromised but at greater risk. And the blood clots in my lungs make me have a terrible dry cough. Once I'm released, hopefully Monday, I have to actually go into the pharmacy because I will have to sign for some of the high-powered stuff. That's not going to be fun. Hopefully nobody beats me up over it. Yikes.

And furthermore I will be on blood thinners the rest of my life. DH says I am never going to be allowed to touch my beautiful new Chef's Knife WAAH.

$7 for a dozen eggs at a largish independent grocer here in Cali. The person who brought this to everyone's attention on another CA forum reported the store for price gouging.

ediej- I’m sorry to hear about your medical issues but glad you weren’t removed. And encouraged to hear that you got good care despite the distractions in the medical community. My wife was on blood thinners for a while due to clots, so I’m familiar with the apprehension. Good luck to you.

@ediej1209 AL Zn 7, call your pharmacy and see if they will bring your medications to the car or allow pick up at the drive-thru. You are vulnerable. Many state boards of pharmacy are relaxing rules to help pharmacies protect their staff and their patients.

Alternatively, see if the hospital pharmacy can fill your scripts before you leave the hospital. Frequently, hospitals have pharmacies that operate just like other out-patient pharmacies.

omg, you're posting from the hospital, ediej? So sorry to hear of clots and blood thinner problems... my young nephew has to deal with all of that. :( I do know he uses the thinners that can be stopped/reversed/clotted when necessary. (sorry, don't know the correct terminology!)

edie, so sorry to hear you have had such a scare. Take care now, and please try to see if the pharmacy will deliver.

Virtual, hundreds of thousands of feet away hugs, Edie. I'm glad you're getting good care.

There were plenty of people out last night, taking walks, driving places. About as many as on big holidays. It was really nice out, and we're going to have a lot of rain this week. I decided that the risk that I'm carrying the virus, which is pretty small given the amount of human contact, most of which was early in the spread, compared to how cruel it would be not to visit my mother. She comes in contact with a lot more people than I do, normally, but not now, of course. I found it very hard to remember all the strictures in my childhood home. I made sure the surfaces were cleaned before I left. I felt heartsick when she was reaching for me as I was saying good-bye and ignored her hand. It's unlikely she'll survive if she gets the virus, and there's no way to know that I don't have it. Unlikely doesn't equal not possible. It's highly likely that the virus would kill her, and that she'd suffer badly. But it's equally true that she'll suffer cruelly if we don't visit her at all.

Where I was driving, yesterday, the only people I saw in close proximity to each other looked like couples/families. Apparently, people are all thinking they can go to parks, beaches, etc., to have an exercise break, but so many of them are doing so, they're not keeping proper distance.

ediej, my DH is also on blood thinners.... for life, as is the DH of a friend. My DH had clots in his lungs and the doctors wondered why he survived. Luckily, DH can take pills whereas the friend must have injections. Very scary at the time, but it's been under control for a few years now, and his VO2 capacity is better than many folks years younger than he is. Take care of yourself.

edie, I'm also glad you were not "removed". Both my Dad and Stepmother were on blood thinnners for years, they both did very well after a period of adjustment of the amounts they needed to take to keep their blood "levels" where they needed to be.

Here nearly all the pharmacies have drive throughs and the hospitals have "in house" pharmacies, I hope those options are open to you. Stay safe and get healthy.

Plllog, like you I have an elderly Mother and I cook for her, so I visit weekly. I have abstained from hugging and kissing, but I do always blow her kisses from her front porch, and she sits inside and I sit outside and we talk. She'd be very unhappy if I didn't come, plus she'd have to eat my brother's cooking and that would make her even more unhappy!

Here I'm happily "self isolating", i.e. cleaning chicken coops, LOL. No one seems to want to visit when I'm doing that type of thing. Most farmers I know are "self isolating" anyway, this time of year they are on tractors, spreading manure. Lots of space between them and anyone else!

The self absorbed and just not too smart are out in force though. Since our Governor closed the bars and restaurants to all but take out, the ones who always met at the bar every weekend are now just having big parties at their homes, in spite of the "no gatherings of more than 10 people" edict. I know a couple of them and they say it's their "right" to party if they want to, no one is going to tell THEM what to do. I replied that they should go ahead, it was probably God's way of weeding out the terminally stupid. I don't even remember a time in my life when it was so important to "party" that I'd risk spreading illness to others, but maybe I'm just sheltered. Or unrealistic. Or so old I don't remember. (sigh)

Annie

Yikes Edie, glad that you're doing well and getting back to daily life, whatever that is now! My father was on blood thinners for 15 years. There are a few foods that are no no's. Please check them out or your blood tests will be wacky and your blood could become too thin. Take good care!

I've hit up a few markets recently and wheat flour of any brand was non existent. Lucky I have enough for the little bit of baking I do. However I do have plenty of alternative flours like almond, coconut, tigernut, rice (white and brown), cup for cup and Bob's Red Mill GF blend. If I eat all those baked goods I'll need a whole new wardrobe by the time this sequestration is over!

No wheat flour here either, Compumom, and none of the gluten free blends available, but I have various types on hand. I also have a grain mill and wheat berries, so my baking might just get a bit more "rustic", LOL, although I have hard red, hard white and soft white berries.

There was no Crisco either, which surprised me for some reason. I don't use it and I still have lard in the freezer from the last time I rendered pork fat, but my brother wanted some. I can't imagine what he would use it for, he doesn't bake, but there was none to be had anyway.

Annie

When I was at TJ's a week ago, the oil shelves were depleted, though still stocked. They mostly have olive oils, though they also carry sunflower, and, I think, avocado. My guess is that the people really were just buying it for all the home cooking they were planning, but my guess, too, is that people have been buying Crisco because it's shelf stable, cheaper than butter, for the frying and baking they're planning. It's all weird. I guess I'm cynical, but I don't think most of the people buying all this up actually know how to cook and bake, or their pantries would already be stocked...

Geesh I don't use much Crisco but I'm sure glad I bought a tiny can of it around Christmas! People are nuts!!

Thank all of you for your good wishes. Never thought about hospital pharmacies. That will save me a ling painful walk. Thank you!!

And that's another depressing thing to think of ... No hugs and Fairy Kisses from my grandkids :-( . Especially since their Mom is an ER RN. So for all you dealing with caring for elderly parents and trying to keep them safe it's tough, I know.

Everyone please stay safe and healthy!!

Edie, you take care. You don't need this virus on top of everything else.

Here, we are wearing masks. I think it's especially important if you're visiting parents. My husband has to visit his 93 year old mum every day so I have made masks and we said them in a solution that kills viruses after an hour. It's far from perfect, but hopefully will help to prevent anything being transferred from my husband to his mum.

There are lots of patterns on the net. I found this one easy to make and is more comfortable that some.

https://youtu.be/ZpQEsEGiX5Y

Edie, get yourself a pair of gloves to use with your chef's knife that cannot be cut - just search for cut proof/resistant gloves and find a pair for kitchen use. If you're hands are small be sure to get some that come in small size.

Homemade masks are bacteria hotels that sit right tight on your face. Don't, just don't.

Masks aren't meant to protect the person wearing them, they are to protect other people from our breathing, coughing, etc. The N95 masks will filter out some pathogens, but according to the health organizations:

The lighter surgical or medical face-masks are made to prevent spit and mucous from getting on patients or equipment.

Homemade ones are not better/worse at that than the other ones meant as dust masks, etc., which are not the same as surgical masks. Surgical masks are better than homemade masks but should be left for the health care providers who actually need them.

So, does that mask help me? Nah. Does it help keep my germs from my elderly mother. Yes, somewhat, although not totally effective. Instead, I just stand 6 feet away and blow kisses. Mom's good with that.

Annie

Everyone should be wearing masks.

I agree 100% with this article...I was saying just this a few weeks ago,

'Why Telling People They Don't Need Masks Backfired'

article HERE

The thing is, cloth masks, whether the spit and mucous kind, homemade or a simple bandana, do limit the distance of spread of certain droplets, but they are not restrictive enough to restrain the covid-19 virus. It can go right on through. This gives people a false sense that they're not shedding virus. As I said when you first brought this up, the suggestions to wear such masks were for reminding people to keep their distance, not touch their faces, etc. For that, any kind of mask or scarf will work so long as the wearer doesn't get so used to wearing it, and the populace get so used to seeing them, that it's no longer a reminder. It's possible (I don't know the data) that cloth masks are better than nothing for limiting spread, but the question becomes which is a greater benefit, the amount of moderate to mild prevention of the mask or preventing the false sense of security it brings.

I have a mist filter respirator mask for airbrushing. It's rated for very fine droplets, but from what I've read, I don't think it would withstand the virus. It might need a carrier to cough right on it, to breathe it in. Coughing it out would cause the wearer to remove the mask fast. It's not easy to breathe in it to begin with, and it does seal to the face. Wearing it in public, with goggles, might be a good way to keep people away from you, though. :)

The author of that article had a good point about the N95 masks. Sure, teaching people how to properly fit and wear them makes more sense than saying don't. These do work, though not perfectly. For contagion, proper fitting is essential, or they're just overpriced spit masks. It's not a perfect seal, though, and there are other issues, but it's the best we have for the medical workers who come into constant contact with infected patients. Even with the masks and other measures, medical workers are catching the virus. It's inevitable, but the more staff who are sick, the fewer will be available to treat patients right when the exponential growth of serious cases is hitting. Nurses here are demonstrating outside a hospital because of the shortage of N95 masks. Corporations and private parties who use N95 masks for non-medical work, are donating their supplies to hospitals. There just aren't enough.

So, teaching the populace to use them correctly is moot. If you have one and use it, great! But "everyone" shouldn't be wearing them, because the hospitals are in such need. If you want to say that everyone should have had a stock of them in their emergency preparedness kits, and we should have had a much larger emergency store of them for hospitals, first responders, etc., just for this kind of event, sure. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. When this is over, we can put a lock on the barn door in case a horse escapes in the future. That's not today's issue.

I worked in hospitals for years and was never told to wear a mask only if Iwas sick. (Why would I even be at work if I was sick?!) We always wore masks into rooms with patients who were contagious.... for any reason, along with special gowns in some cases.

I do understand that there is a darth of masks and agree that the medical profession needs them more than me.... but....... hmmmmm. Maybe if I kept one or two and gave the rest away? (No, I haven't horded boxes of masks, but I do have some from when DH was ill.)

I think the "only if you're sick" message was to remind couples with one sick one to maintain their distance. :)

I found a couple of N95 masks in my jewelry making cabinet just the other day. DH and I will be using them for ourselves. A local nurse friend offered us some due to our health issues and the fact that DH must deal with the public, and I told her to keep them for herself and her family, knowing about the shortage and their high-risk - I was overwhelmed with her kindness. I will reuse my mask as long as I can, taking precautions with handling it, storing it, and washing my hands before and after putting it on. But I will be wearing it when I go out.

Thank you 2MD. Be safe and careful. You can extend the life by hanging outside on a sunny day....let it spin around. A spritz with alcohol. Alcohol dissipates quickly. I have a hand held steamer I use in the bathroom. Steam heat is boiling and 100% effective. As far as we know. Freezing does NOT kill.

Wash hands throughly, then put on any mask. Use Clorox wipes in and out of the car, the handle, the store handle, etc. Once home, new wipe on home door handle and bleach store contents outside. Wash hands again carefully, then remove your mask. Outside, wash hands again.

I said from the get-go, they should hand them out free all over the city. But we don't have them. So troubling. That is the big failure, and the hoarding of testing by our medical. My brother cannot get a test but hopefully that will change soon. Most just want to know if they are a risk to family and others.

Everyone in China is wearing masks. Surrounding cities started wearing masks immediately. A cough can go further than 6 ft. And onto surfaces. Most carriers do not know they have it. Keep it in the mask. Cloth masks can go into soapy water, then boiling kettle water. Heat kills.

All our stock at work was picked up. Or delivered by us. I know there is more in storage but did not go into work the day I was going to search.

I have very few N95's at home but we are not going anywhere. Emergency only.

On our way home this afternoon (YAY!) we stopped at the grocery store and I gave DH a wishlist hoping for at least some of it. He was actually able to get everything, including milk, cottage cheese and some produce! At least maybe some of the panic buying is slowing down? Or people are finally realizing good storage needs to be taken into account too?