Thanks, Annie! I knew I could count on you. :)

By the difference between brining and fermenting, I guess I was looking for the more scientific, what does it do to the vegetable, kind fo thing, but I love the image of your grandpa's pickle barrel in the basement. :)

My great-grandfather had a press in the basement and made cherry wine. In Michigan. :) I think he might have also made apple jack on the back porch, but I'm not positive it was the same person who did both. :) Different kind of fermentation. :) (I'm having a smiley ol' time of it.)

I think my circulator does go up that high, and using a circulator is a great way to keep a constant temperature, but I don't know what advantage the pasteurized have over the proper canning. More snap

I really don't have room for much storage, and as it is do keep pickles in the fridge, mostly. A couple of replacement jars in the pantry. I have mostly gotten rid of the jars of pickle juice but have too many types of kimchi. :) I'm not sure I want to try making kimchi. I remember the Korean ladies in my youth who had special kimchi fridges in their kitchens.

Fermenting is done with lactic acid bacteria....formed naturally by the fermentation process....no vinegar is involved.
Pickled Pickles are pickled with vinegar and sugar.....

I made refrigerator pickles last fall with the last of the cucumbers someone gave me. I made 2 1/2 pints and put what is almost the last of them on my hamburger tonight.

Just to add, once a fermented food is heated, the advantages of the fermentation--that is the probiotics--are destroyed. I keep my fermented foods in the fridge once they're done fermenting and they keep a VERY long time.

I bought a couple of books to help me with this: The Joy of Pickling and Fermented Vegetables. They have both been helpful, but I tend to make fermented vegetables more often, although I do still make the refrigerator pickles with vinegar and brine, but I use no sugar in them. I do add Habanero chilies to my refrigerator pickles, however, as I like them spicy but not sweet.

I bought some cabbage yesterday so that I can make sauerkraut, although I still have kimchi that I made a few weeks ago. I only use Napa cabbage for kimchi, but I bought green cabbage for the sauerkraut.

I do not grow cucumbers but I do buy the pickling cucumbers in season at the farmers' market. I only find them in the summer.

Not exactly sure what you are asking. Unless the subject never much interested you in the past, and now want to learn?. Maybe all the discussions in the past rolled over your curiosity and fair enough. Purchase jars, good enough. A few good brands in the grocery refrigerated section are fermented and have the lactic acid good bacteria.

Fermentation is centuries old. Pasteurization is relatively new. 60-75 years?

Pasteurization is not just about heat but also time. For safety reasons the home canner needs safe high heat. Sous vide at home is new. Precision cooking temps are charted by the FDA. 140º at 2.5 hours kills all pathogens.

40-140 is considered danger zone. But we can pasteurize eggs at 131. With a longer time, 135º for 1 hour 15 minutes is standard. 134º for 90 minutes...

Chicken breast 155-160. Something like 135 for 2.5 hours (?) is safe. All pathogens are killed but you will have chicken sashimi. Raw chic, but safe.

Don't quote me on any times/temps, just an example why temp confuses people.

I see no reason to pasteurize/ jar/can cucumbers unless you have a massive harvest. Preserving for the winter months. Beans, asparagus, etc.

Fermentation is the good stuff. We have it going 365days, 24-7. 4x12 inches of counter space. For 3-5 days. Some in the pantry. Counter depth 30 inch fridge no issues. Time to purge your fridge if it can't fit 3-4 quart jars of deliciousness.

“Salmonella bacteria can survive for weeks outside a living body, and they are not destroyed by freezing. Ultraviolet radiation and heat accelerate their demise; they perish after being heated to 55 °C (131 °F) for 90 min, or to 60 °C (140 °F) for 12 min. To protect against Salmonella infection, heating food for at least ten minutes at 75 °C (167 °F) is recommended, so the centre of the food reaches this temperature.”

To play it extra safe let’s do 57 °C (134.6 °F) for 2 hours which is well within the safety range stated above. Not only will salmonella be destroyed but all other pathogens present as well. Win win.

Pic

Brief story about my Dad. He is 91. Early 2019 he read a book by a heart surgeon preventing heart disease with good diet/exercise. No surprises there.

For the past year all he talks about is the 'clean 15, dirty dozen'. Fermentation, good gut bacteria...

"Dad, you have had kraut, kimchi, kombucha, kifer..."years ago"..."I have?"

me, "You ate the entire quart of fermented Napa cabbage, asian pear, leek, fennel, kraut in two days, and I left you another quart..."

dad, "that was fermented?" ...me, "yes dad, fermentation. You did not like the kombucha or the kimchi".

dad, "I did not like kombucha? I would now knowing it is good for me"...(lol)

"Dad, you have two quart in the fridge from my last visit"

"oh, I ate that. It was good". "bring me more!"

Yes, i was asking because I just now became intrigued by the Anova page and my lack of knowledge. I've read tons of pickling posts, but I don't can or pickle, so the specifics didn't stick. I tried doing a search of the forum, as well as looking for some basics on the web, and didn't find answers to my questions. Already, in this thread, I've learned much more! This group is awesome! S, I just ask when I don't know stuff. There's a ton of stuff I don't know, and I'm always ready to learn. Thanks, much for the sous vide timing for bacteria killing info. That was a big part of my question. Excellent answer. Love the story about your dad!

I'm never going to get into any of this in a big way. I only grow herbs and lemons (and decorative pomegranates that dissapoint the squirrels--they're not good eating). OTOH, I have met a bunch of disappointing pickles, and I might like to ferment some vegetables in small batches. I'm bored with what's easily gotten at the store,

Thanks, Lars, for the book recommendations.

Thanks, Linda, for the clear definition, and Laceyvail for the pointer. Things like these help me form a framework to hang information on.

I'm having some pic issues...

Lars, you have two of the best books there are for fermentation and pickling. I've been making the fermented Turkish cabbage recipe from Joy of Pickling for years and I prefer it to sauerkraut.

The fermentation book answered all the questions I've ever had about fermentation, and some that I didn't know I had.

The more you know, then you realize there is even more you don't know ...

Which is why we come here.

Both those books look great Lars. We learned from Sador Katz. I have my grandmothers crocks and one from my MIL. Way too much realestate and quantity with AC vinegar, asian pear vinegar, Kombucha, kimchi, hatch chili sauce...fermentation overload. Small batch has been a game changer. We made 3 quarts of kimchi, one mild for me, last weekend. Starting two quarts of kraut tonight.

Napa, ginger, golden beet, fennel, carrot. Maybe leek or whatever I find in the crisper. I get my cabbage going first, course sliced, salted, then grate the mixed veg separate. We have not screwed up since committing to small batch a few years ago.

One 1 gallon crock batch DH made years ago was so salty we could not eat it. A couple quarts at the far end of the kitchen counter can be checked with a glance. Activity and bubbling in 24 hours, 4-10 days....fridge. I need one quart for Sunday but it will be fresh-crisp and mixed with kimchi....

We are making Momofuku's bo ssam.

Lettuce wraps, but I want some crisp kraut with that.

This did not post for some reason....maybe the pic link. ? NYtimes. ?

(I think of it as advertising how great the NYtimes cooking has become)

Although I already have four air-lock tops for my Mason jars, I bought this fermentation kit, which seems like it might be a bit easier. I'm using it for some of my Sauerkraut now. I mainly wanted it for the glass weights, but I was not sure if they would work with the air-lock lids.

S, that all sounds great.

Lars, thanks for the link. I don't have any equipment, including mason jars, so a kit for the tops sounds like a great way to put a toe in.

plllog, I'm sure it's just coincidence that you have a smiley time after talking about cherry wine and apple jack. (grin) Here in Michigan we definitely have cherries, so cherry wine is no surprise.

Grandpa used to tell me to press cider and leave it sit until it gets "hard", then put it in the freezer. The part in the center that doesn't freeze was applejack. I'm sure there are far more scientific ways than that to make it though.

Annie

LOL!! I just meant that I was putting a smiley after every sentence, thinking about my father telling me the old stories. Your grandpa's way sounds right since alcohol freezes way lower than water. Mine would just let it freeze on the porch--no freezer. In his day, my father's childhood, there was an icebox in the house, and the iceman would bring the blocks. The milkman would leave the milk on the front porch and if it were cold enough, it would freeze and push the cream up, for the kids to fight over, unless their mother got to it first. These tradesmen would go from house to house walking on diagonals. The horses knew the routes so would walk on and wait at the next spot. There were autos, of course, but they were expensive, broke down a lot and didn't know the route!

Oh, I remember that frozen cream on the unhomogenized milk left by the milkman! Late 40s in Jersey City.