I would suggest a Waterfurnace Series 5 or if you must have everything variable then a Series 7.

Waterfurnace Series 5

Waterfurnace Series 7

IMPO

SR

Thank you very much for the fast reply. Whatever the brand, I prefer to get the best model available and enjoy it for a long time. In the end, the extra cost for the extra comfort is well justified to me. I did look into the Water Furnace series 7 last year and really liked it as it seemed to check all the boxes, but couldn't really find much feedback or reviews on their Symphony system and app integration, etc. If you have experience with WF's Symphony and related smartphone app, how is the functionality, reliability, and compatibility with other smart home devices/hubs, etc. compared to other apps such the Honeywell TCC app, if you are familiar with that too?

I will ask my HVAC guy to see if he can find a good Water Furnace rep to get more information and probably order a new system. Do you happen to know the approx retail price for the series 7? I only need a 5 ton vertical unit with up flow and left side return to swap out my current Climatemaster 20. The building maintains the closed water loop, cooling towers, and other associated equipment.

By the way, I am in Los Angeles, and Water Furnace is definitely not very well known out here.

Thanks again!

5 tons is very large, suitable for many thousands of square feet of interior space. I'm curious, can I ask how large your condo is?

To start, you may want to ask your neighbors or building management what has been done in other units. Unless you are so unlucky as the be the first in the building to face HVAC equipment replacement, others have trod this path before. See what you can find out.

I would suggest speaking with Waterfurnace about their WiFi Internet connectivity thermostat and also ask them to e-mail you the contact info of several top installers in your area that are thoroughly familiar with Series 7 installations – including WiFi and zoning. The reason for e-mailing contact info of installers is that should there ever be a warranty issue, you can demonstrate to Waterfurnace that they recommended that dealer.

You should ask that the replacement HP be properly sized using a Manual J analysis but I would not worry about it too much since everything is variable speed and the unit will automatically level out at what’s required at great efficiency, dehumidification and lower noise levels, as it self adjusts to the demands and static pressures of whatever existing ductwork it’s connected to.

I have no direct experience regarding WiFi and this series. This series is the top tier of all residential HVAC forced air systems – there are non-better at this time. I would expect that their connectivity would reflect that.

Based on what you have said, I would have no reservations about recommending this brand and series, particularly since you are not responsible for the ground loop and you should not need any electrical entrance or panel upgrade.

Cost differentials between different sizes or series may be close to irrelevant in the overall scheme of things. Personally, for me, I’d sooner be sorry that I might have over spent by installing ‘the best’ - than be sorry I didn’t. The money is quickly forgotten; cutting corners – never ! But that’s just me.

YMMV

IMPO

SR

Are Waterfurnace products not compatible with non-Waterfurnace thermostats?

Wifi thermostats with apps are pretty much the standard these days, lots of suppliers, and most should be compatible with standard heat pumps. Except in the case of the uber-expensive and communicating and variable equipment models, a particular thermostat is hardly a reason, in most cases, to have to buy a particular equipment brand.

FSQ, why did it seem like you ducked the question about cost? This stuff is expensive. If you work in the field, surely you know an approximate cost range of the heat pump components on their own.

Re: Elmer J Fudd

Regarding the thermostats, they are communicating, they do gather and store a lot of data for diagnostics and they do have a lot of proprietary ‘Sub Menus’. I would stick with what’s designed for the series; you might be led down the garden path to do otherwise.

I do not know the cost of a Waterfurnace installation is in California as I’m in Canada. Prices, subsidies, rebates, taxes and tax credits vary widely along with labour costs. The OP says that, “The building maintains the closed water loop, cooling towers, and other associated equipment.” I don’t know what that means with regard to a flow centre that of this size (5-ton) would normally have 2-circulators and in the case of the WF Series 7 those circulators would have to be variable speed as well.

There are a lot of ‘unknowns’ and generally the client would not receive a price for the heat pump itself, the price would be for the complete installation that is a custom job depending on what is needed and what is found or ‘discovered’ in-situ.

Several detailed quotes along with accreditation and installer’s proof of insurance should be sought. The OP would need to find an installer that knows how to deal with what is essentially a ‘District Loop’.

IMPO

SR

I apologize for not replying sooner and thank you for your responses.

EJF: Not sure why the unit was spec'd with a 5-ton when originally built. The condo is about 2200SF with 10ft floor to ceiling windows and is facing the west. The corner units, although a little smaller have two 4-ton units instead. Perhaps the windows and sunlight are a big factor?

Also, unfortunately I am the first one in the building that is looking to upgrade the HVAC units to one with variable speed fan and compressor etc. As far as I know, HVAC units with variable speed fans and dual or variable stage compressors will ONLY have full communicating functionality (with the unit’s variable fan/compressor working in harmony) when the unit is matched up with that manufacturers specific communicating thermostat for the units as well. Yes, most any thermostat will turn the Heating/AC on and off, however, it will not be able to control the variable fan speed or compressor and subsequently will not benefit from the energy savings and comfort features that these systems are specifically designed to provide.

I had a variable speed fan with dual stage compressor along with fully communicating thermostat at my last condo, so I’m very familiar with how much energy it saved me, but more importantly for me, the added comfort from that system, which I feel is worth every penny. It seems that a lot of HVAC dealers don’t even know that their flagship systems need to be mated with their proprietary thermostats so I’ve seen a lot of people with variable speed units paired with a standard color touchscreen wifi or Nest thermostats. The system works fine but couldn’t compare to my fully communicating system.

fsq: Thank you for the advice for contacting WF and asking for their qualified dealers. As far as price, I was just curious to know what the retail price of a 5-ton WF series 7 is. Actually, I don’t need to know the series 5 price nor do I need to compare them, because I agree with you – get the best! But since ur in Canada, I guess pricing is different.

Also just wanted to note for others who might not know, the word “communicating” in the HVAC world may sound like it has to do with an internet connected and/or wifi capable thermostat, but it doesn’t at all. It only means that the variable furnace/air handler/blower fan (also called ECM Fans/Motors) and AC/Heat pump/Compressor, “talk” to each other along with the communicating thermostat. For example, if the AC is set to 74 degrees but it’s 75 in at the thermostat, the “brain” of the system will tell the compressor to turn on to “low” and the blower fan speed will also adjust to only blow enough air to match the low compressor output. If it needs to cool faster, it will increase the amount of cooling from the compressor and ramp up fan speeds in order to reach and/or maintain the set temperature, etc. (I’m no expert but just trying to explain it as I understand it, so please correct me if I’m wrong). Similarly for heating with a variable gas furnace, the amount of gas will vary accordingly. These systems will NOT use this advanced functionality with standard thermostats.

The word “communicating” in the HVAC world may sound like it has to do with an internet connected and/or wifi capable thermostat, but it doesn’t at all. It only means that the variable furnace/air handler/blower fan (also called ECM Fans/Motors) and AC/Heat pump/Compressor, “talk” to each other along with the communicating thermostat. For example, if the AC is set to 74 degrees but it’s 75 in at the thermostat, the “brain” of the system will tell the compressor to turn on to “low” and the blower fan speed will also adjust to only blow enough air to match the low compressor output.

Yes that is correct. But you could also attach the communicating system to the internet and control the system from virtually anywhere in the world.

In terms of the Goodman/ Amana / Daikin comfort net systems of the past the communication protocol has been moved to the furnace and eventually the air handler will have this upgrade as well. Which means it is no longer required to have a communicating thermostat -- any thermostat combined with the 'comfort net furnace' and 'installed properly' will perform in a way similar to the old comfort net way of the communicating thermostat.

I have yet to see one of these furnaces so I am unable to comment further as to if this is better than the aforementioned 'communicating system'. I presume this was a cost cutting move by Daikin, the parent company of Goodman Global.

Oh, good to know that they r moving in that direction so that more of the benefits from a communicating compressor and furnace or air handler can be attained with universal thermostats. However, I doubt a user will have fan speed control from the thermostat until there's some sort of universal protocol for it that all thermostat manufacturers can follow. But maybe that's already in the works. With Goodman's comfortnet, being able to choose between the 4 fan speeds (approx 500-2000cfm) simply from the thermostat is one of the best features imho. Moreover, I would always leave the fan running on the lowest speed. Doing so keeps the entire house at an even temp so ideally no room is colder or hotter than the next. It also helps keep the inside air clean if u change/maintain the filters all the time.

Going back to the topic of my original post, the water sourced heat pumps available today are communicating systems but if u look into the app a particular company uses for their system, they seem to be far behind in smart thermostat functionality (eg. App is not reliable, has very poor rating, does not integrate w voice assistants, etc).

Yes, there are pros and cons in such a move. I think it also may have been due to installers buying these systems and installing them with legacy controls which in that case would cripple the machine.

Until I actually see one of these newer furnaces with comfort net included on it I can only speculate if this change is the same as or better than the original comfort net. Probably not, for the lack of user control of the system as you noted above.

Water sourced heat pumps would be a smaller specialized market so that is likely the reason for the disparity from a forced air system. That would be my guess anyway.