A picture of the 2 actual rooms would help

Here are photos from when the house was being sold (doesn't show the real clutter of daily living).

This photo is taken from the vantage point of the bottom left area of the kitchen. In this photo, you see all of the available countertop space. There is approximately 5' of countertop to the left of the sink; of that, about 3' becomes inaccessible when the exterior door to the back patio is left open. There is a 15" cab between the stove and the refrigerator.

This is taken from the bottom right of the kitchen space. There's a 6' bench, then the door to the patio, and then the cabinet run begins.

This is the dining room. From this photo, it looks really spacious, but the reality is that when you add in a china cabinet (buffet & hutch) - it becomes a very tight space. The only place to add the cabinet was on the wall where artwork is displayed. The room is 10 feet wide. We lost 42" for the table width, then another 18" for the buffet, leaving about 30" for people sitting at the table. When people are seated there, it is very hard for anyone to get by the seated person.

You'll notice that the flooring is different; the kitchen has an Armstrong laminate, while the dining room has oak strip (which is what is in most of the house).

@helaurin93 Thanks for the photos of your space. These are very helpful to see the existing space which is a standard L-shape and probably not too cramped for the 2 people who live in your home. My family has great respect for grandparents like yourself who are raising grandchildren alone, as my father was raised from infancy by his grandmother who was widowed for most of those years. After he graduated from college, he moved her with him for the jobs he took and cared for her until she passed away. You're doing great work, and I know your granddaughter appreciates it whether she says so often or not. I'm like you in that I hate mice, especially in the kitchen, and have had them in a home with enclosed cabinetry. It's hard when you live next to open fields to control the problem, but just keep setting those traps and maybe some poison too if you don't have pets around, as I'm sure you already have done.

I commented on your other post. To summarize, you previously stated your new kitchen layout plan included 21 cabinets with about a half-dozen interior accessories, changes to framing, sheetrock, plumbing and electrical and that you were seeking upper mid-grade quality cabinetry for the gut remodel of the space for a total maximum budget of $45,000 which would be 100% funded by a home equity loan on top of a good chunk of the mortgage that you have left to pay. Perhaps other posters can help comment, but in good conscience I could never recommend taking out a loan for an elective remodel which furthermore cannot be done on the scale you envision for the budget you have proposed, as other posters have previously cautioned. Other posters have also previously offered to suggest input for refreshing the finishes of the existing kitchen space for your split-level home that would keep you on budget and not jeopardize an investment at resale.

When I saw the "blank canvas" you posted at the other thread as well as here, the thought came to mind that you might be a good candidate for a kitchen that has had a previous life in a showroom or perhaps an upscale home. These are sold online in various places, and you can get amazing deals on quality cabinetry that is gently used for pennies on the dollar. This is a great option for someone who isn't tied to a specific layout already due to cramped areas.

Regardless, it sounds like you do intend to proceed with your plan as stated. I wish you all the best and hope that things work out well for you and that maybe you find some amazing deals out there. As to college scholarships for your granddaughter as you mentioned in your other post as hoping to secure, I recommend checking into high schools that offer an associate's degree upon graduation and then start applying for scholarships and financial aid a year in advance of college entry. Good grades and testing out of some classes would be helpful to maximizing the scholarships and savings, speaking as someone who studied every loophole available at the time to get 100% funding for an undergraduate degree.

L-shaped kitchen shifted to where the dining room is. You have a nice 13' uninterrupted wall there. Will really open up the available space.

@Aglitter

1. We have actually had some discussion with a nearby kitchen showroom that has a large display cabinetry that they are likely to want to sell, of a line that is still being made so that we could potentially use the existing cabinets from the display and add in some more.
2. Mice are still a problem, especially as it is getting colder now. I won't use traps or poisons, as we have five cats (plus two one-month old kittens we're fostering) and two dogs. Our best mice-hunting cat sadly had to be recently euthanized due to kidney failure (she was 17 years old). It looks like a couple of our younger cats are looking to take over the lead role of mice-hunters though - a six-month-old kitten nailed one a couple weeks ago. But getting cabinets with solid sides instead of openings I can wave my hands through is really important. Which reminds me - if/when we manage to do anything with the cabinetry, I'm going to need to talk to the contractor to make sure they aren't creating openings if they need to shim the base cabinets for leveling purposes. There's evidence that mice have been running through several of the base cabinets, including the flatware drawer. Gross, so lots of washing going on all the time.
3. There's three humans in the house right now (my granddaughter, myself, and my boyfriend). I can't discount the possibility that child welfare might at a future point ask me to take in another kinship placement.
4. I'm actually okay with the existing "finishes" as far as color/style. It's the layout as a safety hazard, the open-sided cabs with visiting mice, lack of countertop/prep space, and the lack of storage (and accessing what storage there is) that is driving us nuts. If there was a way to get these issues resolved without having to take down walls, etc, I'd be interested in seeing plans, although it wouldn't resolve the flow from the kitchen through the dining room to the living room. I just haven't seen anything so far that can resolve these issues within the existing space.
5. I'll definitely be looking for scholarships etc for my granddaughter as the time draws near, and ways to maximize opportunities for her.

@helaurin93 I'm so sorry for the recent loss of your 17-year-old cat to kidney failure. Kidney problems are so common in cats that live to be such a ripe old age as yours was. As a cat owner myself, I sympathize with how precious they are to family life.

My dad was an only child or else any young siblings he might have had would have been also placed with his grandmother, so once again, it is a blessing that you are there for those kids and willing to go through the process of raising a family a second time around, something a parent never plans to do.

Have you heard of humane mouse traps, also called catch-and-release mouse traps? Those might be a good fit for your situation to keep the cats and dogs safe. You can release the mice or kill after capture depending on what you want to do. I absolutely hate mice, but it's still hard psychologically to kill them if the trap hasn't already (I've been known to bonk one in the head with a hammer to finish it off), but at least the confinement trap options would keep the pets safe. I wonder if you could put poison inside a humane mouse trap? Poison would be contained that way, and the mouse couldn't escape. Mice can carry Hantavirus that is swiftly deadly to humans, so an aggressive plan should be in place to control them, particularly in the kitchen areas and as they seek shelter in cooling weather, as you said. Please use a protective breathing mask and gloves for any cleanup of the mess to stay safe, and read up on Hantavirus if you would like more information.

When you say your current layout is a safety hazard, you are referring to the proximity of sink to stove, correct? My kitchen is even tighter in this regard than yours. Yes, you need to be careful not to back into the stove, and hopefully you could increase the span there if you do renovate, but the spacing you have there I don't believe would normally be considered hazardous. In fact, the countertop area between sink and stove is designated as a prime prep area by most kitchen designers, so you'll be even closer to the stove than the sink if you're doing prep on that counter span.

It's been said before, but you don't have the budget to move or change walls, to be honest. If you can get by without that and even without moving utilities, you'll have a closer shot at happiness with the overall cost. When walls and utilities get moved, costs for a remodel skyrocket due to high labor costs. Those showroom cabinets won't be free, but if you like them, it might be the way to go, especially since you can get matching supplements. If you can do the tiling yourself, you'll save another huge chunk of cash. A $45K loan paid back over 5 years could end up costing you $58K with interest at a payback of nearly $1K per month, so please sit down and gather all your materials and labor quotes and think about how much spare change you'd like to have in your life over the next few years before diving in. The Houzz community would be delighted to help you figure out ways to get a new look for minimal cost if you're interested in some of the options people were suggesting on your other thread for surface refreshes.

Thank you. As a cat owner (or human owned by cats), I know you get it.

I'll have to check into the humane traps.

I tried playing on paper with this idea, keeping the existing walls:

1. remove the bench

2. Replace the bench with the refrigerator, flanked on each side by an 18" tall pull-out pantry. This opens up 36" of space on the stove wall for reconfiguration. Add vertical tray storage above the refrigerator.

3. Move the stove on the same wall, to the right.

4. Change base cabinetry as follows:

a. Replace the 24" base cab to the left of the dishwasher with a 24" drawer base.

b. Keep the dishwasher as is.

c. Replace the 6' blind sink cabinet with a 36" sink base and a 36" corner super susan base
into the right-hand corner. The sink plumbing shouldn't need to move, maybe just a few inches depending on the actual sink drain placement.

d. Replace the 15" base cab to the left of the sink with an 18" trash/recycle unit

e. Add a 9" tray/vertical storage base cab to the left of the stove.

f. Replace the existing stove .... it's way past due.

g. Add 27" pot/pan base cabinet.

5. Change wall cabs as follows:

A. Replace wall cabs on back left wall with two 24" wall cabs

B. Replace corner wall cab to right of sink with 24" corner cab.

C. Replace 15" wall cab to left of stove with 30" wall cab.

D. Add Over-range and over-the-range microwave above stove.

E. Add 30" wall cab to the right.

This configuration would mean less floor space, but should reduce the costs significantly. I wouldn't need new flooring, for example. I might need one additional light can in the ceiling, and the ones that exist wouldn't need to move. There's paneling that the previous owner painted on the kitchen walls; I'd like to remove that and put up new drywall.

It results in needing a total of 15 cabinets:

Two 18" tall pantry units

One 24" drawer base

One 18" trash/recycle base

One 36" sink base

One 36" super susan

One 9" tray base

One 27" pot/pan base

Two 24" wall cabs

One 24" corner wall cab

Two 30" wall cabs

One OTR short wall cab for OTR microwave to connect to

One 36" wall unit over the refrigerator

Countertop:

back wall, 5' to the left of the sink, 2' to the right of the sink. No real addition to the countertop/prep space on the back wall, other than I'd get rid of having a counter-top with built-in sink board grooves.

stove wall, 27" on each side of the stove (in addition to the 24" immediately to the right of the sink). This gives me an extra 12" of prep space to each side of the stove, and might make the space to the left of the stove actually usable.

I'd still want a new countertop, but the amount of counters needed would decrease significantly.

I'd still have to store many appliances in a bedroom or in the living room though.

Thoughts?

@helaurin93 "As a cat owner (or human owned by cats) . . . ." :-) They are so generous as to share their house with us.

They make cute over-the-stove microwaves with recirculating fans underneath, but if you cook much at all, over the stove is the worst place to put a microwave, and the recirculating fan isn't going to help you with heat, moisture and grease exhaust. If the stove wall is against the exterior, you could probably install a ducted hood without too much trouble or even vent it to the outside sink wall, and a ducted hood if you can have one is worth the splurge if you cook much at all. You could probably do-it-yourself to install a ducted hood with some help, though you'll need a building permit and inspection for the work if you live within city limits. Some jurisdictions also limit the power of the ducted hood fan that can be utilized without a make-up-air system, so be sure to stay within parameters there to save cost.

Storing small appliances that are infrequently used in other rooms would be a smart solution to save on cabinetry costs. Even downsizing might be something to consider if you have items that you haven't used in years. We're getting rid of a number of items to help fit the space for the renovation of our small kitchen (8 cabinets and 2 shelves total).

Unless your kitchen flooring was installed underneath everything or unless you have spare pieces to patch, you may not be able to get away with re-using the flooring for such dramatic cabinetry and layout changes like removing that bench, so that may need to be reserved for the budget. I think the bench is cute and a nice architectural feature. You could add some luxury cushions for the pets or people with tapestry to match the decor, just a suggestion. Check the specs on the new stove you get, because it's not necessary to locate the fridge a mile away from it. Due to space constraints in our renovation, the stove and fridge are very close (just under 10") but still meet specifications for the rangetop clearances, and my parents have had their stove and fridge about a foot away from each other for decades with no problems.

Some people aren't keen on the trash can pullouts, and others are; you can find several threads at Houzz discussing this topic. We have a small kitchen and didn't want to use up cabinetry real estate for the trash, and with your mice problem, you might want to keep your cabinets free of trash to help curb the soiling, smell and rodent draw that it could cause. Beautiful stand-alone cans are available from so many manufacturers these days that you might want to reconsider the in-cabinetry trash.

Corner cabinetry is problematic. If you can close off blind corners or run cabinets straight into the wall instead of using corner cabinetry, it's a more modern look and usually more accessible storage. If you're trying to maximize space, though, sometimes hard-to-access space is better than no space, so you must decide.

Last comment for now, and that is with 5 cats and 2 dogs, if these are indoor pets, you can almost guarantee scratches on your new cabinetry at some point. We've researched many options about this for our cat that is prone to scratching cabinets, and aside from ordering stainless steel doors for our base cabinetry which we'd rather not do, we have landed on the solution of getting our cabinetry in natural wood with unfinished doors and front frames (we'll probably go with framed cabinetry, so this would be just doors and filler strips if you're doing frameless), and using 3 to 4 coats of Waterlox original formula to finish the fronts. That way any new scratches can be lightly buffed and recoated with this oil-based formula without requiring the complicated refinishing process that you'd have with conversion lacquer. It's not a common way to go, but I have found several cabinetry companies that use Waterlox as a standard finish. You'll need to re-apply coats periodically. Aside from that, we'll be putting more scratching posts around and probably blocking off the entry to the kitchen in some manner to try to keep the cat away from the cabinetry as much as possible. If you feed the pets somewhere else besides the kitchen, then they won't be as prone to scratching the kitchen cabinets, but that's not always convenient.

I feel like I'm missing out on part of the conversation.

What's the goal for this remodel? How long are you planning on staying in the house? Do the existing cabinets need to be replaced? Do you need more counter space and storage space? How many people use the kitchen at the same time? How long do you plan to stay in the house? Is resale a consideration?

Also, with respect to mice, getting rid of them isn't the problem. Keeping them out is the problem. Have you identified yet where they're entering the house? That's the first step, and then sealing the exterior to prevent them getting in.

Trying to address each point:

1. Microwave - trying to resolve the issue of having so much countertop taken up by a microwave. Between my granddaughter and I, we do cook a lot. The stove wall is not an exterior wall, and the hood we have now is a recirculating fan. So I''m familiar with that downside. The concerns I have about an OTR microwave is the height for removing hot items (particularly since I am short) and that if I'm cooking something and my boyfriend decides he has to use the microwave at the same time, it could be tight. He won't consider having it under the counter.

2. The only other place to store less-frequently used appliances in the current configuration is in a bedroom or basement. Storage throughout the house is tight. I use most of the items periodically; some I haven't used more recently only because it's not always easy to haul it up from the basement.

3. I'm pretty sure I'll be okay with the kitchen flooring. If I remove the bench, I'd be putting something over it. And we do have a few spare pieces of the same laminate that the previous homeowner left for us. Not a lot, but enough to manage. The bench is definitely cute, but it's wasted as it is. We tend to collect the recyclables in paper bags/boxes sitting on top of the bench, and because the inside of it has 2x4 supports angled in, there's not much storage inside of it.

4. Refrigerator and stove placement: I know we don't need a ton of space between the two, but I'd really like to be able to pull out a cookie tray and put it down on either side of the stove. Or any other hot item - like lasagna, etc. Putting the refrigerator on the opposite wall of the stove still leaves it only a few steps away.

5. We do have a regular stand-alone trash can, which works well enough. I'd still like to have a better place for the recycling though.

6. Corner cabinetry - I had a super susan in a corner in a previous house, and it worked really well for me. So it's something that I'd definitely like.

7. The dogs are actually pretty good; it's the kitten claws that I suspect are more likely to do damage to base cabinets, as they push up with their rear paws to get up on cabinets at times. It's one of the reasons I would prefer a medium stain wood vs. paint.

Here's a general layout using the Ikea planner just to get a sense of what I might manage in the existing floor space. It still means that when all three of us are in the kitchen, we'd still have to "dance" around each other with the existing floor space.

@Aglitter Are you familiar with Yorktowne at all? A local shop is interested in selling their Yorktowne display unit. It's in a color and style that everyone in my family likes - even the the granite used in the display is one we like, although to be honest, we might not be able to use the granite due to the configuration.

The shop owner said "make me an offer". I refused, saying I need to see how the display cabinets might work for layout/configuration in my house, and that I'd also need to figure out what additional cabinets I would need.

I also have no idea on how to price this, assuming I could use all of the cabinets.

The display unit includes:

1-24" base unit with two drawers and two roll-outs

1-24" base unit with one drawer, and no shelves/roll-outs (would need to buy)

1-36" sink base with tilt-out tray

1-12" two-drawer base

1-12" spice pullout with 3 racks

2-12"x54" wall cabs (goes from countertop to ceiling)

2-24"x36" wall cabs with glass and mullion inserts

1-15"x36" (over refrigerator or over stove)

1-36" wine glass rack (I really don't need this).

1 deep stainless steel sink with safety grid

2 pairs of fluted fillers

The total length is 9'3", so it's short by 7" of fitting on my kitchen wall. I think he'd be willing to sell the cabinets separate from the granite - finding someone who can use the exact configuration might be a challenge for him.

I can see possibly for the base:

1. using the sink and one of the 24" bases in my existing sink wall, and ordering a super susan for the corner - that would finish the current sink wall base

2. using the other 24" base as my trash/recycling pullout (would need to convert) between the super susan and the stove.

3. then have the stove, so that leaves me with 30" of base to fill to the right of the stove, with the stove starting at 60" from the corner.

4. use the 12" spice pullout to the right of the stove,

5. that leaves me with 18" - so maybe purchase a 6" vertical tray storage and finish the run with the remaining 12" base drawer

For the uppers:

1. Start the left corner run with the 12"x54"

2. Purchase 36" of wall cabs to finish the wall to the left of the sink

3. Purchase a corner wall cab for the right of the sink. That takes up 24" of the stove wall, leaving 96"

4. Use one of the 24" wall cabs.

5. Purchase a 12" wall cab to line up next to the stove.

6. Purchase the cabs that would go over the range and support a microwave

7. Purchase a 6' wall cab.

7. Use the other 24" wall cab, completing the upper "L" shaped run.

Where the bench currently exists:

1. Purchase one 18" tall pantry

2. Move the refrigerator to the center

3. Purchase the over-refrigerator cabs

3. That leaves me with 18" to fill to the right.

a. Could use another 18" tall (in which case, I won't be able to use the other 12x54" cab), or I still have up to another 6" of space I could steal (there's a foot between the end of the bench to the door frame). -

b. I could put in either a 24" or 30" base, and use the 12"x54" wall and then fill out with another wall cabinet. ....

c. Or.... instead of starting the corner L with a 24" base and the 12"x54" upper, maybe land a 24" pantry there, and use the two 12x54's on the bench side....

c1. I could then use the two 54"s to "frame out" the cabinetry with the refrigerator in the center.... In which case, I'm not gaining much contiguous countertop there.

c2. If I shove the refrigerator to the right, and use cabinetry to the left... I could put in a 30" plus a 12" drawer base, and use the two 12" units above.

Thoughts? Lots to think about. Also depends on what the shop would accept for the display - any idea of what might be considered "fair"? Perhaps as a percentage of regular retail price?

Even with the display, I'd need to purchase additional cabinet pieces, and then countertop.

@helaurin93 It sounds as though you're wanting to purchase some of the display pieces but not all, correct? The dealer will want to sell a closeout display as a unit, so if you cannot use them all, just take them all and stick some in another part of the house or re-sell the pieces you don't need. Wholesale cost on those cabinets probably doesn't exceed $5K to $6K, but they would mark them up double or triple at retail would be my very rough guess. If's up to you what you'd want to offer. Maybe give him a total budget and see if he will order you the extra pieces you need plus sell the display for a total amount. I've seen dealers on Ebay and Craig's List put a fairlly high markup on used cabinetry displays, up to 50% of the retail cost which is probably still above their wholesale cost. If the dealer won't budge on what you consider a fair cost, you can get deeper discounts if you buy from an individual who is switching out a gently used kitchen, and this happens regularly with high-end homes.

Yorktowne is part of a huge cabinetry conglomerate ACPI that puts out a lot of cabinetry on the current market. If you research online, you'll see both positve and negative reviews for Yorktowne specifically, so you should do some research before proceeding. You have a big advantage on quality control because the exact cabinetry you want is in the store and able to be inspected before purchase, so as long as you check out the display thoroughly, inside and out, and are satisfied with what you see you should be fine.

It is hard for cabinet companies to provide an exact color match to older pieces, so be aware that any new pieces you order may have some color variation. I think you said you wanted natural wood, so if that is what this display is, the wood itself can vary in color from different lumber lots, and wood oxidizes in time to a yellow or amber tone depending on the species, so be prepared for color variances with new pieces if these are natural or stained wood fronts. Adding stain makes it even more complex as far as color matching. If the cabinetry is painted, then be aware that you will have some damage to paint with moving and re-installing the display, and an exact touch-up color may once again be difficult, but if you are willing to accept a reasonably inconspicuous repair, then these cabinets may provide a good value, especially because they are local for transport.

As to granite, sometimes we see people putting two types of countertop materials in a kitchen, generally one on an island and one on a perimeter. The dealer may have a hard time disposing of that granite unless he plans to use it exactly as is on a new display, so you might want to negotiate the deal to include the granite and just see how much of it you could use if he's not wanting too much for it. Some colors can be matched decently with new slabs, so that might be an option

@beckysharp Reinstate SW Unconditionally

1. Ideal goals:

a. increase storage space (not enough storage for our needs). Besides having a lot of small appliances that I'd like to be in the kitchen, we tend to buy in bulk and we all have different tastes.

b. improve accessibility of existing storage space. Our uppers have fixed (non-adjustable) shelve. The bottom two shelves have only 8" of vertical space each, so a lot of things we buy won't fit in there. Anything that can't be stored in the cabinet ends up being stored on top of the refrigerator, countertop, or on the floor (such as bottles of apple juice, cases of glucerna, etc). Adjustable shelving would allow me to change heights to meet my needs better. The sink base is a 6' blind base, so to get to anything in the cabinet cavity to the right of the sink, I pretty much have to lie down on the floor and crawl half-way into the cabinet to dig anything out. Because of the way the plumbing is under the sink, I can't get any kind of magic pull-out to make the existing corner more accessible.

c. increase usable countertop space for prep work. I want to get the microwave off the cabinet, not have routed sinkboard drain lines leading to the sink, etc.

d. increase distance between sink and stove (we've had a couple of near disasters involving hot pots of boiling water when people tried to slip into the floorspace before the sink just as I was trying to transfer the pot to the sink for straining).

e. The sink... it's a two-basin split sink, maybe a 30/70 configuration? I can't lay large items flat for soaking or scrubbing, such as cookie trays, lasagna pans, etc. I'd prefer a single large sink.

f. Back to the layout... when someone has the refrigerator doors open - it makes it really hard for anyone else to come into the kitchen, as the right upper door tends to block the entry space. It's also unfortunate in that sometimes people get startled when they are gazing into the refrigerator trying to decide what they want.. Case in point: my granddaughter had been staring in the refrigerator for a couple minutes earlier this morning, I stepped into the kitchen entryway and waited a moment, thinking she was going to close the refrigerator door any second. She didn't, and so when I piped up with a "You done looking in the refrigerator?" - I startled her. Bad timing, because she had actually picked up and was holding something she was debating eating. Unfortunately, because I couldn't see what she was doing, and she couldn't see me... I startled her. The chicken cutlets ended up on the floor when she screamed and dropped them. Oh, and then there's the time I was cooking, the range hood fan was running, and I needed more butter from the refrigerator, so I stepped over and flung the door open - just as my boyfriend was coming in. He got whacked in the face with the refrigerator door. Not one of his finer moments.

2. Hoping to stay in the house for a very long time (retire or die here). Certainly at least for the next 6+ years, and hopefully longer. I'm 57 years old. I don't envision myself selling unless (a) I lose my job, can't find another, and have to avoid foreclosure (b) become disabled to the point that I can't care for myself and the house - you know, like need to go to an assisted living facility or nursing home (and hopefully, neither will happen for at least 15 to 20 years), (c) I drop dead or (d) I'm told that the only way my granddaughter can go to college is if I sell the house, use the profits to fund her college, and find somewhere much cheaper to live.

3. Yes, definitely need more counter space and storage space. Often, both my granddaughter and I will be cooking together; it's also pretty common for my boyfriend to also come in while we are cooking, so that he can use the microwave, make coffee, grab a snack, etc. We end up having to "dance" around each other quite often. Even if he's not planning to get something out of the freezer to heat up in the microwave, he's coming in/out to go out the door to the patio to have a cigarette, and the path to the patio door takes him diagonally through the existing kitchen space.

4. Resale could be a consideration when I'm much older, but hopefully not. I don't intend to move; I'm 57 years old raising a teenager. I have no intention of moving while she is in school, and there are a number of decent colleges that she might consider attending after she's done middle and high school, so even then, I'm unlikely to want to move.

5. Mice can get in pretty easily. The obvious is along plumbing and utility piping entering the house, and we can recheck those. But we have garage doors that I'm sure they can slip under; it's not uncommon for us to prop open the door to the backyard while letting the dogs in/out for potty breaks, My granddaughter has a habit of leaving the garage doors open when she takes the dogs out for a walk, or goes out with her bicycle, etc. Or when we're out raking leaves for the fall - same thing, because we bag up the leaves and have to store them in the garage until the township yard waste pickup rolls around. We have trees that overhang the house, so it's possible that they can get in through roof vents or the chimney - I've personally seen at least one mouse running up the side of the house on the brick. It only take a moment for a critter to make the mistake of entering a house; over the years, I've seen a bird (we never figured that one out) and a possum (door was propped open to bring groceries in). Almost ended up with a Pennsylvania tree lizard - one of our dogs carried that one in - but she'd ripped the head off of it first. Oh, and yeah, when we were moving in here, we had the garage open and were going back and forth to the truck to get stuff in... even a stray dog came wandering in and gave himself a tour of the house, calm as could be. Certainly, we can try to identify any other sneaking-in spots - but it's going to happen. Given that - I don't think it's unreasonable to want kitchen cabinets that actually have fully enclosed sides and bottoms, to help reduce the chance of these pesky critters. Right now, if a mouse were to run up the pipe for the kitchen sink, it has the opportunity to live in the toe-kick space beneath the cabinet, or to come up into the main cabinet, hop over to go the dishwasher, and to the cabinet next to the dishwasher - the missing part of the cabinet sides is easily enough to wave a hand through. We have five cats. Between them, they are pretty good at catching visitors. They got one last night around 2 am, which they played with until I scooped it up into a container, and then my boyfriend released it out into the yard.

The issue in my mind is finding the best way to move forward: expand (which the budget is limited) or replace within the same footprint (which won't relieve some issues).

@helaurin93 After your explaining your traffic flow issues in the comment above, I see why you are reluctant to renovate without moving walls. The footprint is prohibitive for the way you live, even if you were to change the location of the refrigerator. To my thinking, it would be sad to sink money into a renovation and still have the space issues you do.

Let's think for a moment about the possibilities of relocating to another house that might meet your needs better while preserving as much of your equity as possible. You mentioned in the other thread about your home being valued around $419K. To do some math, if you spend about $58K with interest paying back a $45K home equity loan over the next 5 years for what you previously budgeted for the kitchen renovation in your current house (and this is without moving walls, since that would exceed this cost given the scope of cabinetry plus electrical and plumbing changes planned), you would lose about 30% to 40% of that investment if you sold the house, according to national averages of return on a kitchen renovation. You mentioned that your neighbor upped house value by a similar renovation, but having just been through selling a family member's home that needed updating, I can say that what a realtor or appraiser suggests a house is worth with or without the applied updates can vary greatly from offers you'll get once the house gets to the market. It's a risk to renovate as a homeowner expecting a return on investment, a different ball game than flippers who buy houses at low prices and use builder-grade materials to update for resale wtihin months.

Back to the math, if you go forward with the kitchen renovation on your existing house, this puts you at retaining about $30K at resale of the $45K loan for which you paid $58K with interest. That's a loss to you of around $28K if you sell. If you wait 5 years and save the $58K you might have paid for a renovation and add it to perhaps $85K you have in equity, that is $143K you could put toward a brand new house. In many parts of the United States, that amount would go a long way toward a home that has been recently built with few maintenance issues for years to come. You could even take your $85K right now and have many options. House shopping can be fun. If you are at all open to the idea, spend some time online searching for newer homes in your area, and you might be impressed with the possibilities for kitchens already updated to modern standards with good traffic flow. Since you have the indoor/outdoor pets, I'm assuming you'd want another house on the outskirts of town if you were to move, and your money will go even further with that type of location as long as the lot isn't too big. Lowering your overall square footage in a move could also help cut utility costs to preserve your monthly income as you move into retirement years while still giving you an improved layout with more efficiency.

A move might also allow you an opportunity to find a house with a separate living space for the granddaughter so she could have more privacy and perhaps her own kitchenette as she moves into the college years. Living at home is one of the big ways to save money for college students.

@Aglitter Thank for thinking through this and detailing the risk and ROI for a kitchen renovation.

You are correct, I would prefer to remain in a single home, in the same area that I'm in now.

In the area that I live in, my house is considered one of the lower-value homes, including both resale and new construction. To give you an idea of what I mean.... A quick search of single homes for sale in my area turned up 109 houses. Six were below the appraised value of my house, two were exactly the same as mine, and the vast majority the other 101 were higher than mine.

I'm not sure about your area - but in my area, there are some pretty steep costs involved in selling, moving, and buying a new home.

Extrapolating:

$419 current value. With no changes, and a modest .05% annual increase, in 5 years the value could be about $430.

Selling a home here pretty much automatically hits a 6% sales commission and real estate transfer tax of 1%. So 7% of $430,000 is $30,000 lost for those two items at sale. Usually there's a few more items as well, but keeping it simple.

Let's say that at that point, the mortgage balance is about $160,000, so that in theory, I'd have about $240,000 of remaining equity to cover moving expenses and any expenses with buying a new property.

Let's say I'm willing to consider downsizing on the property size in terms of square footage, drop down to a minimum of 2 bedrooms and 1.5 bathrooms, drop down from a 2-car garage to a 1-car garage, and limit the search to "newer" houses built since the year 2000 - then the lowest priced house on the market in my area today is actually far more than my house currently, at $509,900. If I widen the search to houses built since 1980, then the lowest price is currently $439,000.... still more than my current home in today's market.

Still, let's say I find a suitable house for say, $375,000 - maybe by looking outside of the area, going more rural, and giving up some of what I have now.

Let's say moving costs are about $10,000. That leaves $230,000 to cover the purchase costs of a new house. Title insurance, mortgage application, appraisal fee, home inspection costs and 1% buyer's transfer tax can easily eat up about $7,000. That leaves $223 to cover the actual purchase price. That still leaves me with a new mortgage of about $152,000. And costs to sell the current property, move, and purchase the new property add up $30,000 in sales costs, $10,000 for moving, and $7,000 in non-equity purchase costs add up to about $47,000. That's more than the renovation budget, but less than the renovation budget plus interest on the HELOC. But it gets pretty close - and then we'd have to hope that future house wouldn't need much, if any, repairs.

While I despise my current kitchen... over the past several years I've been working on this house... added a 6' privacy fence, a 10'x12' shed, resurfaced the driveway, completely gutted and renovated two full bathrooms, and last month completely replaced the aging HVAC system, converting from oil to gas, complete new roof - those are the major things done.

There will always be maintenance and improvements for any house... after the kitchen, it's a toss-up of whether to replace the garage doors or re-do the utility/laundry room (the oil tank will eventually be removed, giving me some additional space to work with).

As you can see, given the current situation/market, I'd rather stay put if I can and fix what I have.

@helaurin93 Wow, you are in a tough real estate market. With those housing prices, my guess is that labor costs will be on the high side, too. Since you despise your kitchen now and a large part of that is the traffic flow right through it, I don't think that keeping your existing footprint will make you much happier. Your original hope was to knock out a wall and combine the kitchen and dining room which would solve your problem, but with this being an elective remodel in that it's not forced by some disaster like a water leak, the risks of an interest-accruing loan and loss on investment at resale must be considered. It's your life and your house, just be aware that costs for a renovation of that scope often turn out to be higher than projected as unexpected problems may arise or supplies and labor run more than planned.

Friends of mine did an extensive remodel that involved knocking down an interior wall that their architect had assured them was non-load-bearing, and in the middle of the project they were docked an extra $5,000 because a structural ceiling beam had to be added. Your kitchen and dining rooms together are a large span, so please consult a structural engineer or otherwise confirm that no ceiling reinforcement will be needed before tearing out the wall if you chose to do so.

As to the costs of selling, it is becoming more popular to serve as your own real estate agent these days to save on the commission costs, something my family has done and which is a whole separate topic, but it is apparent that you've already put work into upgrading that you wouldn't want to lose at resale immediately, so hopefully you'll be able to stay where you are for long enough to make those investments count for you.

On the topic of the microwave location, the danger of burning yourself with hot items from a microwave too high for your height is real. If you're the primary cook, you get to decide where the microwave goes to suit your height needs. An undercounter one can be accessed by tall people, too.

There isn't much more I can think to add to comments that have already been made on this thread plus the other one that you started. I wish you the very best in whatever you choose to do. Thanks for sharing with us.

@Aglitter Thank you for all your thoughtful comments and discussion. I know that some people like to upgrade just based on a whim. (I have an ex-MIL that was like that... folks on her street called it the "Bob & Lil" show, because the uproar within the family for her drop-of-the-hat choices was like a sit-com.

I'm very aware that every modification or upgrade I make needs to make sense. There are things that I'd "like" to do or have done - but since they are not necessary, they aren't getting done. I'd love to get this old paneling, which was painted over, off the walls... it's in the kitchen, and part of the entry area, and part of the living room, and in part of two bedrooms. And in some cases, which walls have paneling doesn't make any sense I can see. Four walls in the living room, and one has brick, another has painted paneling, and the other two are regular drywall. Kitchen has two walls of paneling. Dining room, none. It's annoying... but something I'm not going to bother changing, not unless I hit the lottery (fat chance, since I don't play), or unless it's part of a hopefully-far-in-the-future sale agreement, because it's merely annoying. It's not dangerous, not a hazard, not necessary.

Fence? Yep, I have dogs, both of whom would (and have) happily try to hunt down deer. Luckily, before the fence went up, I had a firm grip on their leashes whenever we went out. Prior to the fence going up, deer sometimes slept on our patio, right outside the kitchen. I've seen them sleeping even by the front door too. Shed? Yep, needed a place for yard equipment. Bathrooms? When both started leaking into the room below, damaging the subfloor, etc., and every contractor said they couldn't fix/find the leaks without destroying the ceramic tile and walls around the tub in the one bathroom, and the 30"x30" stall shower in the other bathroom - it was time to bite the bullet. Everything was going to be ripped apart anyhow and need to be re-tiled, so that was the right time to redesign those bathrooms. I didn't have access to a HELOC for that; I found three credit cards offering long-term 0% interest on purchases, and kicked off the project that way. And paid off every card before interest would have kicked in.

For the oil-to-gas conversion - it was time. Heating with oil is usually about 2.5x more expensive than gas, at least around here. We'd had to have the oil furnace repaired for various problems each year during the past few years. Annual cleaning/maintenance is more expensive for oil furnaces to. And my central AC unit's stated efficiency was so low that it's not even legal anymore to sell AC units with that low of a SEER....and I'm sure that over a couple of decades, the actual efficiency wasn't getting any better than the SEER advertised in the sales literature. But honestly, what kicked my butt into gear was one particular morning... I always have the oil company notify me before coming to my house, because the oil fill valve is in my backyard, behind the fence line. Meaning they are supposed to call me to ensure that I don't have my dogs in the yard - that's to protect both the oil guy (since my dogs are both rescues, territorial, and not fond of strange men wandering around on their turf) as well as my dogs, because I can guarantee you that if they are in the yard and the oil guy were to come in - he's not going to bother trying to shut the fence gate while running back to his truck. Anyhow, one early morning I woke up, was going to let my dogs out in the yard, but instead decided to heat up some tea first. So I go into my kitchen, wearing a thin set of PJs... and find a strange guy staring at me through the window of the kitchen door from my backyard. Turns out the oil company didn't have enough people to get oil out, hired some sub-contractors, didn't give them the instructions about where the oil fill valves are nor about contacting customers before wandering around their houses and getting the early morning thin-PJ peep shows.... and frankly, I was furious. I very easily could have decided to let the dogs out before making that cup of tea, and that would have been a disaster. Everyone thinks the pit bull I have is the big danger; she's so old, her teeth are pretty worn down and she takes 7 pills a day to combat congestive heart failure. If she latched on to an intruder, her teeth would barely break the skin, it would likely be just bruises. It's the little guy people have to worry about - he's older, but he has all his teeth, they are still sharp, and the little bugger is fast and agile - a mix of Chihuahua, Jack Russell, and Miniature Pinscher. He's nimble, can jump, does agility, and can climb ladders. Small at 18 pounds, but mighty, and when he perceives danger - he won't hesitate to draw blood. Doesn't matter if it's a stray raccoon in the yard, a stag, or an menacing adult human. The heart of a Malinois... in the body of a itsy-bitsy ankle-biter mutt. But a love bug otherwise, especially with children. Anyhow... that near-event with the oil company's sub-contractor was enough for me to call the local gas company, discover that they were running a rebate program so that I wouldn't have to pay a cent for them to install a gas line to my house from the street, and from there, I was off to find the most appropriate HVAC system for my house. I used the HELOC to help pay for that, and expect to repay that by spring (before kicking off the kitchen for certain).

Driveway resurfacing was done because the grass had grown in on both sides of the driveway by 14-16 inches, and the grass was working on breaking up even more of the driveway. Rather than wait for the grass to completely destroy the driveway over the next few years, I had it widened back to the original width, dug down, and then resurfaced. I'd been using a driveway crack filler for the past few years to try to slow the damage down, but it was time.

My point is - there are some people who will renovate just for the sake of renovating. I won't commit to any kitchen work until the HVAC conversion is paid off, that's for certain.

Doing research to make the most of the possible budget (the HELOC is for $50k, but I want to keep my limit at $45k to allow for unexpected issues) is part of how I operate on big-ticket purchases. Even the best-laid plans can go wrong - but if there's no plan at all, it's asking for disaster.

I met with a GC last night - the one who did my bathrooms. He confirmed which walls are load bearing and which aren't. I showed him possible plans - one for expanding the kitchen, the other keeping the kitchen in the same footprint. He confirmed that the subfloor of the kitchen was at the same height as the rest of the house - there's multiple layers of flooring in the kitchen now.

His opinion?

It would be foolish to replace the existing kitchen with the same or similar layout.

He suggested I consider doing the expanded layout in stages to help keep the budget in line.

Stage 1: Demolition of the existing wall, removal of the paneling, flooring, doing all of the planned electrical and plumbing, the perimeter cabinetry of the "L", replace the one window over the current kitchen sink (we could feel the draft from several feet away), create the pantry/closet, create the second entry into the room. Hold off on installing a central island and use a table instead while getting used to having the perimeter cabinetry.

Stage 2: Do the 6' "butler's pantry/china cabinet" where the bench is, assuming I still want it. (Yeah, I will). Keep using a table, and be prepared to move it around to figure out the best traffic flow around it in the kitchen. If it is the type with leaves, try living with it both ways - shrunk without the leaves, and expanded, with the leaf or leaves.

Stage 3: Add in either the island I want, or keep the table. He doesn't particularly like islands; and once they are in... they are "in" - not easy to move or change out. He doesn't think I'll need the storage space that under-island cabinetry would provide either. His point is that if I opt in the future for the island, it won't matter if there's a slight difference between the granite for that vs. the perimeter cabinetry - and I might even want a contrasting surface at that point. And likewise, if there's a subtle shading difference in the cabinet paint/stain for island cabinets - it won't really be noticeable since it's separate from the perimeter cabinetry.

His suggestions make sense; although I would then incur a templating charge for each phase for the countertop, it might make sense as well to stage some of the work given the budget.

He knows (from experience) that I won't automatically agree with him on every suggestion. For example, during the bathroom renovation, I replaced the old tub with a cast-iron whirlpool bath. Heavy as anything, he and his team has to carry it up the stairs to get it in. He was certain that I wouldn't get much use out of it, saying that everyone he knows who gets a whirlpool tub uses it for a month or two, then the novelty wears off and it's a waste to have upgraded to that point. Except.... I use it. A lot. It helps with joint and muscle pain from psoriatic arthritis. If time allows, I could spend hours in that tub.

Anyhow.... he thinks that we can get it done within the budget, as long as I'm not going crazy with some of the finishes. For example, it might be cheaper to subway tile a backsplash, vs. running the granite up the wall as a full backsplash. He agreed the plumbing costs would be relatively minimal, but electrical work might be a bit more.

So we're going to work on pulling together project sub-budgets, like x-amount for flooring, etc. as part of the planning phase.